Which Suspension lift package?

[bertrenolds]

2 hours ago, PathyDude17 said:

Alright, we’ll try this one last time. After that someone else is gonna back me up or you can figure this out for yourself. If you already happen to have spacers on top of your struts and put blocks on your subframe, yes, that will change you suspension geometry back to spec. However, an SFD refers to the whole 9 yards- angled strut spacers, extended steering, and subframe blocks, etc. it’s almost impossible to put in a 2” SFD to compliment those spacers for the 2” lift. But, doing an actual SFD (all the blocks and spacers) at once, which is really the only way to do it, will not change any of your suspension. Your strut will be pushed down 4”, but your entire front subframe will be pushed down 4” so that your CV axle doesn’t blow up immediately, and sits exactly the way it did before the SFD. As for springs vs spacers, you need to understand how a MacPherson strut system works, or at the very least be willing to believe the testimonials of all the people with spacers who experience binding and even blowing up CV’s. It appears you’ve decided not to research very extensively, and not surprisingly no one else has been willing to weigh in on basic lift kit questions, because they’ve already been answered a thousand times. Sorry for trying to be helpful.

I have read plenty, obviously more than you have. A guy that has a shop put in his lift should be the last one giving advice. I know exactly what a mcpherson strut is, how it works, and how its a pita to lift a vehicle with one. Funny you 180 and some how agree now a sfd corrects axel angle, even a 2" sfd and its been done. The only difference between an ac lift spring and a spacer lift is that a spacer lift maintains the plush stock ride where as a ac lift spring will stiffen up the suspension and stop side to side roll but also cause top out and put more stress on your struts. Other than that they both increase the angle of the axel, why the hell else would 4x4 recomend 2 camber bolts per side. Most guys run ac springs and a 1" spacer but then they are maxing the axel angle and report binding. They do the exact same thing, both increase the axel angle equally, and now I will repeate myself and say 2" is the max lift for no binding which is what ac springs lift to. A 1.5" spacer would be identical, people like me have issues because we get 2.5" lift spacers. So to conclude maybe you need to read more, maybe actually install your own lift, and stop spreading miss information to sell overpriced ac lift springs with ridiculous shipping costs. I will wait for someone who actually knows what they are talking about to correct me.

[PathyDude17]

@micahfelker @02_Pathy @hawairish @mjotrainbrain @TowndawgR50 @XPLORx4 @Bax03SE @RainGoat

Edited April 26, 2019 by PathyDude17

[02_Pathy]

Yes both lifts via coils and spacers change the angle of the axle to some degree and thus accelerate wear on boots and such. With the spacer lifts and depending on which size you get they physically move the strut down however many inch spacer you put up front. So at full droop when offroading the strut will drop farther down because the spacer pushes it down that much and that's how some people break and bind CV axles. With the coil lift at full droop itll stay the same as stock because the strut is still in it normal operating range and isn't being pushed down by a physical spacer, the only thing that prevents it from dropping too far is the maximum travel of the strut. I'm running a 1inch spacer with OME HD coils and dont have issues with binding or blowing up a CV, the only problem I have is CV boot wear. Not trying to start an argument or anything as theres tons of information out there with different styles of lifts and testimonies I'm just adding my 2 cents into the pot.

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[micahfelker]

Yes, Alex is spot on. Your cv’s up front are designed to operate within factory geometry, which basically from full compression (at the bump stops) to full extension (strut top out). Putting a lift coil

inside your strut assembly may increase the frequency that you hit that top out, or full extension of the strut, but even with the increased angles your cvs are still within the stock operation angles that they were made to function within from the factory. With spacers, however, since you’re moving the entire strut assembly down 2,” your cv’s can now extend to your struts full extension PLUS that 2,” causing them to bind up and break. Yes, the angle that the cvs sit at on the road are gonna be equal, the problem is with actual off road use they can drop passed the angle they were made to operate within if that makes sense. 

 

That aside, we’re all human and all make mistakes regardless of who’s right or wrong. Everyone’s trying to just help each other out here and sometimes things can get miscommunicated, so let’s try and keep the personal attacks off the forum. We’ve got a really great community here of a ton of awesome folks.

Edited April 27, 2019 by micahfelker

[mjotrainbrain]

I'll leave it simply at the fact that @02_Pathy and @PathyDude17 have got the idea right about spacer vs spring lifts and their effect on suspension.  Spacer lifts work, but you're more likely to break a CV off-road, and almost guaranteed with a taller spacer lift.  As far as the SFD issue, I think you guys just had a miscommunication; it seems that from the beginning you both expressed how they work correctly, just maybe not entirely clearly.

 

I've been meaning to make a diagram demonstrating the different kinds of lifts.  Now that I have a week off between semesters I suppose it's high time.  Don't want to get anybody riled up, just want to help people modify their rigs in the way which will suit their intended use best!

 

-tacking on because Micah replied while I was typing, to say his explanation is pretty dang good about spacer vs spring.

[hawairish]

Echoing the last couple replies, springs alone don’t lead to CV breakage. Neither springs nor spacers change the max extension length of the strut, but only spacers can change the max operating angle of the CV, which at around 2” of spacer lift, becomes problematic. 

 

An SFD does correct the operating angle of the CV. I think there was a minor clash in the concept/purpose of the SFD in some of the replies, but all are technically accurate. Historically, the SFD kits were previously sold as having a strut spacer that’s equal in height to the subframe spacers, and it could “stack” with whatever springs you have. That is, if you bought a 4” SFD and already had AC springs, it would yield a 6” lift on 4” SFD, but you’d still be at risk for CV binding.  But if you just wanted only 4” of lift, you’d have to run stock springs. 

 

I find the notion of matching strut spacer and subframe blocks totally unnecessary, and the kits we’re producing don’t require that; you will mix and match springs and spacers to get the desired lift amount, and then offset the lift with whichever subframe blocks will keep the “net” lift to around 0”-1.5” to avoid CV binding.  Case in point, I run 3” strut spacers, OME HD springs (about 1.5” lift for my setup), with a 3” SFD.  I could run the exact lift setup and 4” SFD if CV angles were a concern, but I’d rather have the ground clearance. 

[Bax03SE]

One thing I generally love about this forum compared to other car forums, is people genuinely talk to each other with respect and aren’t always trying to one up each other. That being said, let’s all take a deep breath and a step back on this one....lol. I think everyone is trying to help and a lot is just getting lost in translation. Here’s what I know from my personal experience with several different set ups.
Spacer lifts and spring lifts both increase the static angle the same amount, thus effecting CV boot wear and camber the same when at normal ride height. The difference is in the maximum angle at full suspension travel (full droop). The stock R50 struts have about 3 inches of down travel before they max out, and anywhere within that 3 inch range the CV is generally safe from binding. With a spring lift, you’re only working within that 3 inch range of travel. A 2 inch lift will use up 2 inches of down travel, leaving only 1 inch left (hence some people experience top out). But the CV won’t bind up and Grenade itself at full droop because it is still at the same maximum angle as stock. Now say you have a 2 inch spacer lift on top of the stock strut and spring assembly. At static ride height, everything is at the same angle as it would be with a 2 inch coil spring lift. But, in this case you still have the full 3 inches of strut travel available. So if you unload the front suspension and let it hang at full droop, you will now have a full 5 inches of downward travel and the CV will be beyond it’s safe limit of travel. If this happens while the front axles are spinning the CV will bind up and something will most likely break. That is why people say spring lifts are safer, because they don’t let the CV travel past it’s stock limits for downward travel. With spacers, 2 inches is generally the max you can go and “probably” not break anything. If you put in anything larger than a 2 inch spacer without a sfd then probably not becomes definitely will break something.
Now SFD’s really come into play when you want to go past 2-2.5 inches of lift. Dropping the sub frame let’s you go beyond 2 inches while still keeping the CV’s at a safe angle and also keeps camber within spec by bringing down the lower control arm mounting point. Most people with a SFD achieve the lift through a combination of both strut spacers and lift springs, then drop the sub frame whatever amount is needed to bring all the angles back into a safe range. So if you have a total lift of 4 inches with both spacers and springs, then you use a 4 inch spacer to bring the sub frame down to match it. Here are a couple pictures of my front end that were taken while in the process of doing the sfd. The first is with full lift in place (combination of 2 inch spacers and 2.5 inch spring lift) but without the sfd. You can see the CV and lower control arm angles are all out of whack. Then with the sfd in place everything is back to lining up much more reasonably.

Hope this all helps!


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[RainGoat]

I run 3” strut spacers, OME HD springs (about 1.5” lift for my setup), with a 3” SFD.  I could run the exact lift setup and 4” SFD if CV angles were a concern, but I’d rather have the ground clearance. 

Okay, I have to admit I’m not entirely clear on the last sentence. I’m inferring from that comment that your 3”SFD gives you more ground clearance than a 4”SFD would. I’ve kind of picked up on that before from your comments & don’t really get it. I believe you chose 3” over 4” purposefully and I’m curious as to why. Quite honestly, I expect I’ll care more about your rationale than I will about pure lift height.

[Bax03SE]

7 minutes ago, RainGoat said:

Okay, I have to admit I’m not entirely clear on the last sentence. I’m inferring from that comment that your 3”SFD gives you more ground clearance than a 4”SFD would. I’ve kind of picked up on that before from your comments & don’t really get it. I believe you chose 3” over 4” purposefully and I’m curious as to why. Quite honestly, I expect I’ll care more about your rationale than I will about pure lift height.

I actually did the exact same thing and went with a 3 inch sfd just to get the extra inch of ground clearance under the front sub frame assembly. This is a slight compromise as my cv angles aren’t quite back to 100% stock, but they’re still within the safe range of travel as described by what you get with just a spring lift. Basically, I put in enough of a sfd to offset the strut spacer portion of the lift and keep maximum droop within a safe range. 

[RainGoat]

I actually did the exact same thing and went with a 3 inch sfd just to get the extra inch of ground clearance under the front sub frame assembly. This is a slight compromise as my cv angles aren’t quite back to 100% stock, but they’re still within the safe range of travel as described by what you get with just a spring lift. Basically, I put in enough of a sfd to offset the strut spacer portion of the lift and keep maximum droop within a safe range. 

[mention=36148]hawairish[/mention], if that’s true, I think I would follow your lead with a 3”SFD instead of 4”, however, I’ll want it to match up with the LR9448s in back. I’m happy to take functionality over aesthetics & I’m not sure 1” will be noticeable (except when I’m around @02_Pathy &[mention=39745]stpickens[/mention] with their eventual 4”. We’ll all be under[mention=37543]towndawgR50[/mention] by a notable amount anyway - TownDawgR50 or is it TopDawgR50?)

[hawairish]

35 minutes ago, RainGoat said:

Okay, I have to admit I’m not entirely clear on the last sentence. I’m inferring from that comment that your 3”SFD gives you more ground clearance than a 4”SFD would. I’ve kind of picked up on that before from your comments & don’t really get it. I believe you chose 3” over 4” purposefully and I’m curious as to why. Quite honestly, I expect I’ll care more about your rationale than I will about pure lift height.

 

23 minutes ago, Bax03SE said:

I actually did the exact same thing and went with a 3 inch sfd just to get the extra inch of ground clearance under the front sub frame assembly. This is a slight compromise as my cv angles aren’t quite back to 100% stock, but they’re still within the safe range of travel as described by what you get with just a spring lift. Basically, I put in enough of a sfd to offset the strut spacer portion of the lift and keep maximum droop within a safe range. 

 

Bax’s response is my reason. 4” SFD means moving the subframe down 1” lower to the ground than a 3”, neither affecting my total lift, just the amount of correction. That’s to say that that my setup would have the same angles as a non-SFD truck running just 1.5” of lift. If wanted to completely correct my lift, I’d need a 4.5” SFD. 

[TowndawgR50]

11 minutes ago, hawairish said:

Bax’s response is my reason. 4” SFD means moving the subframe down 1” lower to the ground than a 3”, neither affecting my total lift, just the amount of correction. That’s to say that that my setup would have the same angles as a non-SFD truck running just 1.5” of lift. If wanted to completely correct my lift, I’d need a 4.5” SFD. 

Same reason I went with a 4" SFD with 6" of total lift. Ground clearance. 

@RainGoat

[PathyDude17]

1 hour ago, TowndawgR50 said:

Same reason I went with a 4" SFD with 6" of total lift. Ground clearance. 

@RainGoat

 

1 hour ago, hawairish said:

 

 

Bax’s response is my reason. 4” SFD means moving the subframe down 1” lower to the ground than a 3”, neither affecting my total lift, just the amount of correction. That’s to say that that my setup would have the same angles as a non-SFD truck running just 1.5” of lift. If wanted to completely correct my lift, I’d need a 4.5” SFD. 

It’s awesome that your SFD’s will now be an improvement on the standard design with changeable lift heights! On the topic of ground clearance, I think @deltaR50 has a 1” spacer and 4” strut spacers on a 4” SFD, so there’s clearly a lot of variance to be had in combining suspension lifts with different SFD’s depending on the desired height/affect.

[deltaR50]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:17 PM, PathyDude17 said:

 

It’s awesome that your SFD’s will now be an improvement on the standard design with changeable lift heights! On the topic of ground clearance, I think @deltaR50 has a 1” spacer and 4” strut spacers on a 4” SFD, so there’s clearly a lot of variance to be had in combining suspension lifts with different SFD’s depending on the desired height/affect.

 

 

yea i only have 1 inch nx aluminum spacer and 4 inches sfd. my cv axle is close to oem angle wise. i havent had any problems breaking my cv axle for the last 4 yrs of me wheeling it hard. 

[hawairish]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:17 PM, PathyDude17 said:

It’s awesome that your SFD’s will now be an improvement on the standard design with changeable lift heights! On the topic of ground clearance, I think @deltaR50 has a 1” spacer and 4” strut spacers on a 4” SFD, so there’s clearly a lot of variance to be had in combining suspension lifts with different SFD’s depending on the desired height/affect.

 

2 hours ago, deltaR50 said:

yea i only have 1 inch nx aluminum spacer and 4 inches sfd. my cv axle is close to oem angle wise. i havent had any problems breaking my cv axle for the last 4 yrs of me wheeling it hard. 

 

Exactly.  Matching a strut spacer height to the SFD spacer height has always been considered the norm...it's just not necessary.  And running slightly more lift than SFD spacer height is totally acceptable, as long as you avoid having 2" more lift than SFD height.  

[Cbiggy]

I have lifted two inches in the front, and put heavy duty coils up there also and now my passenger side cv axles clicks and pops a lot. Is it lifted too much. I will post a picture of the cv angle later. But with knowing that i have two inches and heavy duty coils (with weight up front) do you think between the lift is the reason for this cv problem. Oh and I replaced both cv axles yesterday.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Cbiggy

[Bax03SE]

55 minutes ago, Cbiggy said:

I have lifted two inches in the front, and put heavy duty coils up there also and now my passenger side cv axles clicks and pops a lot. Is it lifted too much. I will post a picture of the cv angle later. But with knowing that i have two inches and heavy duty coils (with weight up front) do you think between the lift is the reason for this cv problem. Oh and I replaced both cv axles yesterday.

Yes, if you have two inch spacers in addition to HD springs then the CVs are going to be at too extreme of an angle even during normal driving. It’s really only the spacers that are causing the problem, the hd springs are just calling attention to it.  If you only had the spacers but with stock coils, then your CVs would be at an okay angle under normal conditions, but would extend too far when the suspension was unloaded. So you wouldn’t notice any clicking or popping under most conditions, but if you lifted a wheel off the ground while spinning then you’d notice the cv binding and possible breaking. With the addition of the hd coils, the strut is now further extended even under normal conditions and therefore your getting a little bind causing the clicks you’re hearing. The only way to keep the full lift you have now and fix the CV issue is with a SFD. If that’s not in the cards right now, you could remove the 2 inch spacer but keep the hd springs and you won’t have any issues with the cv with that set up. 

[Cbiggy]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:10 AM, Bax03SE said:

Yes, if you have two inch spacers in addition to HD springs then the CVs are going to be at too extreme of an angle even during normal driving. It’s really only the spacers that are causing the problem, the hd springs are just calling attention to it.  If you only had the spacers but with stock coils, then your CVs would be at an okay angle under normal conditions, but would extend too far when the suspension was unloaded. So you wouldn’t notice any clicking or popping under most conditions, but if you lifted a wheel off the ground while spinning then you’d notice the cv binding and possible breaking. With the addition of the hd coils, the strut is now further extended even under normal conditions and therefore your getting a little bind causing the clicks you’re hearing. The only way to keep the full lift you have now and fix the CV issue is with a SFD. If that’s not in the cards right now, you could remove the 2 inch spacer but keep the hd springs and you won’t have any issues with the cv with that set up. 

thanks a lot 

[Cbiggy]

do you think i would be fine with only 1 inch spacers with the hd springs. I have the creations spacers so I can take an inch off. Do you think I would have any issues there? (at one inch spacer plus HD springs.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Cbiggy

[mjotrainbrain]

9 hours ago, Cbiggy said:

do you think i would be fine with only 1 inch spacers with the hd springs. I have the creations spacers so I can take an inch off. Do you think I would have any issues there? (at one inch spacer plus HD springs.

 

I believe that has been done before with success.  I'd definitely suggest having manual hubs with that setup though, because even though you shouldn't have the CV's breaking easily, they will wear quicker than stock, especially the boots.  You may have issues getting camber into spec too, 2 sets of camber bolts may well be able to do it though.

[Cbiggy]

1 hour ago, mjotrainbrain said:

 

I believe that has been done before with success.  I'd definitely suggest having manual hubs with that setup though, because even though you shouldn't have the CV's breaking easily, they will wear quicker than stock, especially the boots.  You may have issues getting camber into spec too, 2 sets of camber bolts may well be able to do it though.

thanks for the advice!

[jlduthie]

FWIW I’ve just installed OME MD front coils (with KYB GR-2) and Fleury’s 1” spacer. Lifted the front end today to check at full droop - could not hear or feel any CV binding with wheels straight ahead or at full lock. 

[Guest]

FWIW I’ve just installed OME MD front coils (with KYB GR-2) and Fleury’s 1” spacer. Lifted the front end today to check at full droop - could not hear or feel any CV binding with wheels straight ahead or at full lock. 

Nice. Hopefully you don’t experience any issues with use.


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[tobin_r50]

Not sure where to post this, but I have a couple questions about the build I am saving up for.

 

about a year and a half ago I replaced the rear trailing arms and with that, installed new oem spec shocks. I am looking at land rover 9447 springs, which from my research will yield about 2" of lift, and increase load capacity a good bit (please correct me if I am wrong). Would I also need to replace the shocks with this? I am not doing a ton of heavy wheeling, just some stuff every once in a while and also to have a cool truck to park in the lot at school lmao. Also looking at ac 2" lift coils in the front, do I need any specific strut for that? Or can I get an oem spec replacement strut? Also going to grab some manual hubs as well. Please hit me up with any suggestions and or advice, I am a high school student serving tables to save up for this. I have been so inspired by the builds on here for too long I need to get a piece of it myself haha.

[Aznpersuasion]

Check out deez cool videos from pathydude

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Aznpersuasion