How To Improve Sound With Aftermarket Audio System?

[XPLORx4]

I recently replaced the OEM Bose audio system in my R50 with a Kenwood DVD HU, an Alpine MRP-F250 4-channel amp, and 4 Alpine SPS-17C2 6.5" speakers. However, I'm not happy at all with the sound. The clarity and volume are great, but it sounds way to "bright", with almost no low range. My Mazda's OEM Bose system sounds better, richer, fuller sound. I suspect the poor sound is due to the speakers.

 

The first thing many of you may probably say is, "Get a subwoofer." However, I do NOT want to install a sub, which would take up valuable cargo space. The only time I use my Pathy is when it's loaded for hauling cargo or camping, so it doesn't make sense to install a subwoofer, only to remove it whenever I use the truck.

 

Are there other 6.5" speakers that have a better dynamic range (or perhaps can substitute as subwoofers) than the Alpine speakers I have now? Maybe just swapping out the rear speakers?

 

I've looked into compact powered subs such as the JVC CS-BB2 and Kenwood KSC-SW1 on Crutchfield, but I don't think they'll fit under the passenger seat. What about mounting the sub to the roof in the cargo area? Is that too funky?

 

What can you audio-system gurus recommend?

 

Thanks.

[Acey]

I recently replaced the OEM Bose audio system in my R50 with a Kenwood DVD HU, an Alpine MRP-F250 4-channel amp, and 4 Alpine SPS-17C2 6.5" speakers. However, I'm not happy at all with the sound. The clarity and volume are great, but it sounds way to "bright", with almost no low range. My Mazda's OEM Bose system sounds better, richer, fuller sound. I suspect the poor sound is due to the speakers.

 

The first thing many of you may probably say is, "Get a subwoofer." However, I do NOT want to install a sub, which would take up valuable cargo space. The only time I use my Pathy is when it's loaded for hauling cargo or camping, so it doesn't make sense to install a subwoofer, only to remove it whenever I use the truck.

 

Are there other 6.5" speakers that have a better dynamic range (or perhaps can substitute as subwoofers) than the Alpine speakers I have now? Maybe just swapping out the rear speakers?

 

I've looked into compact powered subs such as the JVC CS-BB2 and Kenwood KSC-SW1 on Crutchfield, but I don't think they'll fit under the passenger seat. What about mounting the sub to the roof in the cargo area? Is that too funky?

 

What can you audio-system gurus recommend?

 

Thanks.

 

When it comes to those 6.5s, a baffle will help a little but probably won't the results you want. A door panel isn't a tuned enclosure. 2nd is that road noise is pretty high at low frequencies and your bass response has to overcome that. Those mini subs will help some but I've never had one. I made a small sacrifice with an Infinity Basslink, probably the biggest punch out of a small enclosure due to it's small passive radiator design. It can mount to the side and you still have full access to the stow area in the back.

[MichiganAve]

Things to avoid:

 

Those flimsy baffles sold at audio stores that are designed to go behind the speaker can move and make noise. Avoid them.

 

At a concert you face the music, not turn around so the musician is at your back. Likewise, when you listen to a stereo, the speakers are supposed to be in front of you. The only reason for speakers in the rear of your vehicle is for those rear passengers to hear the music. So I wouldn't advise throwing money into expensive rear speakers and turning their volume up so that you are listening to the music behind you... My rear speakers are turned so low I can't even hear them. I would keep two channels of that amp on your front speakers, but consider bridging the other two channels to mono for a subwoofer and leave those rear speakers to run off the headunit. Or you could bridge 4 channels to 2 channels and have more power to run some fancier front speakers.

 

Pre-fabricated mini-subs usually sound pretty bad in my opinion, and cost too much compared to what you could build yourself.

 

 

Improving the 6.5s:

 

If you want to make up a sealed enclosure inside your doors for a 6.5, you actually can, it doesn't take much volume to tune for a 6.5 woofer and because it is hidden behind the door panel it doesn't have to be pretty. That would give better response.

 

Doing some sound treatment to your truck can help quite a bit because you cut down road noise and hear more of the music... putting some cheapo dynamat-like stuff in your front doors and elsewhere would be good.

 

Any higher quality 6.5s would help: I don't have any particular brand to recommend but look for the low frequency -3db cutoff and other stats. Sadly, a lot of manufacturers have shady ways of reporting such things. But this may be the best way of finding replacement speakers with good extension for you.

 

 

Other options to consider:

 

A sealed 8" sub can have very small dimensions and improved low frequency extension than those 6.5s... roof would be odd and hard to do, but would work. If you don't have power seats or other stuff under the seats, it could be done underneath one or both of the front seats.

 

If you are looking for that "punch" or "oomph" feeling of bass, honestly a lot of that low frequency stuff is more the vibration you feel in your body not just your ears. I use bass shakers in my home theater and have used them in cars before. They are fun. They are effective. And they kick @ss (literally haha). http://www.aurasound.com/ are some of the cheap ones, but they work. I probably have a few spares sitting around actually...

 

AN EQUALIZER. I saved this for last cause it might be the best thing for you. Don't go turning up the low frequencies- just turn down the high frequencies and other frequencies that are bothering you. "brightness" is usually a characteristic of higher frequencies. My MB Quarts are notorious for being bright but accurate. I hate bright personally, so I crank down the high frequencies a little with my equalizers, based on my metering equipment for starters and then tuned for my personal tastes. This will also give you more tuning ability through the low and mid-range to suit your taste. Check to see what options your headunit already has built in for equalizing. Chances are it has an equalizer but with only a few bands, so each band may have too wide of coverage for you to tune things in to your liking. You may be able to add one on and control it through your headunit. Otherwise, there are tons of separate equalizers that you can grab that would take the RCA connection from your headunit, process the signal, then feed RCAs to your amplifier. You don't need separate equalizers for Left and Right, nor do you even need a digital equalizer with fancy features like crossovers, time delay, etc-- just a cheap old equalizer with enough channels to have some control (5-7 probably isn't enough, around 15 would work, 31 is awesome but probably overkill for you).

[88pathoffroad]

Have you messed with the surround or bass effects on the new HU yet? A lot of the time adjusting the HU will give you much better sound than leaving it all flat or at "0". 'Course, 6" speakers aren't renowned for good bass to begin with...

[XPLORx4]

I'll try some settings on the HU and verify I set up the amp correctly tonight, and see if it sounds any better.

 

Derrick- Dude, when you move out to SF, help a bro out. Sounds like you know yer stuff.

[jj big shoe]

I never really looked into it, but I had a thought once about mounting subs in the liftgate...

[DJ Dank]

Get some 6.5 Component speakers. If you're willing to spend the money, get some MB Quart's. I own a pair and they are awesome. Best there is. You have a separate tweeter and a 6.5 speaker also with a crossover.

 

Like these...

 

Ebay

[02silverpathy]

All very good info, truth is that the bose was probably reproducing some amount of distortion due to speakers out of control on bass notes...sounds deeper.

 

Bose probably also had great crossover networks built in to separate the right freq.'s the right direction.

 

Buy Focal Polyglass V3's...'cause its easy to spend somone elses money!

 

I am putting the same in my rig...6.5 (in door) Tweet (in OEM location) and 4" mid (Custom Kick in floor).....this will make a strong sound stage which Michigan Ave is totally right about! He is also right about the EQ.....find yourself an older Audio Control "EQL". This is a multi band EQ that is perfect under a seat and is far superior to many many many brands of EQ---you can scoop them up on eBay for cheap! This is probably where I would start unless those 6.5's in the front haven't been replaced. I found that the factory Nissan tweeter is fairly decent (Made by Clarion) when fed a little more power.

 

For boom...yeah well ...redundant....Mich ave beat me to everything! Deaden those doors! Infinity Perfect 6.5's would also add nice kick to them.

 

 

(EDIT)...and just because I love XPLORx4 like a brother I never had...get a bose wave radio!

Edited May 18, 2007 by 98silverpathy

[MichiganAve]

Get some 6.5 Component speakers. If you're willing to spend the money, get some MB Quart's. I own a pair and they are awesome. Best there is. You have a separate tweeter and a 6.5 speaker also with a crossover.

 

Like these...

 

Ebay

 

Dean, we'll have to meet up for sure. I'm not going to have much free time before work starts, but certainly enough to help you fiddle with settings and get things tuned in.

 

I currently am using MB Quart Q series and have competed with MBQuarts in IASCA back in the day. However, they are not "the best" for all circumstances and I don't think Dean would like them. They are rather "bright" speakers, require a lot of power to drive them adequately, and relatively lack bass.

 

You can mount subs in the liftgate, but they'd have to be shallow. And you'd have to have good fab skills to pull off an enclosure in there as it wouldn't really be appropriate for an infinite baffle setup.

 

Dean's speakers are coaxials, not components. I like components too... Did your Bose have the tweeter pod in the A-pillar? If so, you could easily switch over to some components up front and hide the tweeter behind the stock location.

[MichiganAve]

All very good info, truth is that the bose was probably reproducing some amount of distortion due to speakers out of control on bass notes...sounds deeper.

 

Bose probably also had great crossover networks built in to separate the right freq.'s the right direction.

 

Buy Focal Polyglass V3's...'cause its easy to spend somone elses money!

 

I am putting the same in my rig...6.5 (in door) Tweet (in OEM location) and 4" mid (Custom Kick in floor).....this will make a strong sound stage which Michigan Ave is totally right about! He is also right about the EQ.....find yourself an older Audio Control "EQL". This is a multi band EQ that is perfect under a seat and is far superior to many many many brands of EQ---you can scoop them up on eBay for cheap! This is probably where I would start unless those 6.5's in the front haven't been replaced. I found that the factory Nissan tweeter is fairly decent (Made by Clarion) when fed a little more power.

 

For boom...yeah well ...redundant....Mich ave beat me to everything! Deaden those doors! Infinity Perfect 6.5's would also add nice kick to them.

(EDIT)...and just because I love XPLORx4 like a brother I never had...get a bose wave radio!

 

I've always had a thing for focal too!

 

FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BUY BOSE!

[vengeful]

Dean's speakers are coaxials, not components. I like components too... Did your Bose have the tweeter pod in the A-pillar? If so, you could easily switch over to some components up front and hide the tweeter behind the stock location.

 

That's the biggest issue with his speakers. Coaxial speakers simply do not have the ability to reproduce that many ranges of frequency without a crossover. Components are much better at that.

 

I am finally 110% happy with the sound and capability of my stereo.

 

Head Unit: Alpine CDA-9855

Speaker Amp: Alpine MRP-F550 4-ch Amp

Front Speakers: MBQuart QSF 216 Nano Components

Rear Speakers: MBQuart RVF 216 Components

Subwoofer Amp: JL Audio 250/1 250W RMS Mono Amp

Subwoofer: JL Audio 12W3-VIII

Audio Processor: Rockford Fostgate 3.SIXTY.2 (I know I know...I a REALLY good deal on it.)

Custom sealed enclosure

130sq ft of dynamat...everywhere.

 

The 3.sixty gives me 2 presets, one with the subwoofer on, and one with it off. Even with the subwoofer off, the bass response from the speakers is acceptable. I can also control the output volume of the subwoofer amp from my head unit for when I really want to hear it pound.

[XPLORx4]

I still am using the tweeters in the A-pillars. Actually, they're wired in parallel with the door speakers. (Is that bad?)

 

This evening, I discovered that I had enabled the amp's high-pass filter on the rear speakers. Oops! I also discovered that two of the speakers are wired in reverse phase. Somehow I connected the + speaker wire to the - amp output, and vice-versa. Double oops! This would explain the poor base response. When I have a chance, I'll fix the wiring and see how much that helps.

[Simon]

This evening, I discovered that I had enabled the amp's high-pass filter on the rear speakers.

 

I was reading this yesterday thinking just that, but thought there was no way that wasn't checked, so I didn't mention it. Guess it goes to show anyone can make mistakes.

[XPLORx4]

OK, so this morning, I fixed the speaker polarity issues and disabled the high-pass filter on the amp. The sound is marginally better, but still not that great. There's still hardly any bass at low and mid volumes, and when I crank it up loud, it sounds sorta 'boomy' and hollow. The bass isn't sharp and crisp. I need someone with "tuned ears" and experience with different audio systems to listen, and tell me if I can do any better without a sub.

Edited May 18, 2007 by XPLORx4

[FUELER]

In my honest opinion, you wont get any good bass without a sub. Aftermarket speakers are meant for mids and highs whereas the bose paper speakers are capable of putting out some lows.

 

I have the whole entire stereo re-done as well, and when i turn the sub off, it is nothing but mids and highs with no bass, absolutely unacceptable.

[DJ Dank]

I agree with FUELER...its hard to gauge exactly the level of bass you're looking for without actually being there listening to Dean's speakers. I have never suggested this because I've always been a 12+" guy ...::snicker:: but maybe an 8" sub? would take the least amount of space in terms of box and might give you a little more bass you're looking for.

[XPLORx4]

I agree with FUELER...its hard to gauge exactly the level of bass you're looking for without actually being there listening to Dean's speakers. I have never suggested this because I've always been a 12+" guy ...::snicker:: but maybe an 8" sub? would take the least amount of space in terms of box and might give you a little more bass you're looking for.

 

All right, so let's say that I have to get a sub. I don't need hatch-rattling power, I just want some nicely filled out bass. I really don't want a box in my cargo area taking up space for gear. As I said earlier, what's the point of a sub, if it's never in the truck when I drive it?

 

I'm thinking about the JVC CS-BB2 powered sub. It's pretty compact, and might fit under the driver's seat. If not, it's small enough to attach to a cargo panel above one of the rear fenders and leave permanently attached.

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 18, 2007 by XPLORx4

[mora2818]

All right, so let's say that I have to get a sub. I don't need hatch-rattling power, I just want some nicely filled out bass. I really don't want a box in my cargo area taking up space for gear. As I said earlier, what's the point of a sub, if it's never in the truck when I drive it?

 

I'm thinking about the JVC CS-BB2 powered sub. It's pretty compact, and might fit under the driver's seat. If not, it's small enough to attach to a cargo panel above one of the rear fenders and leave permanently attached.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

What is under your rear carpet in that little cargo area? You could fab up small box with the new pioneer shallow subs to get you some low end. Pioneer Shallow Subs For my WRX I actually had a custom fiberglass box made to fit into the spare tire wheel well. I lost all of about 1 inch of usable cargo area. You wouldn't even know it was there so if you go creative and had a little money to spend you could definetly get a sub without losing space. I also have some CDT components that actually play fairly low but I have an Audiocontrol EQX to help. I think I like my CDT's the best so far from Infinity's, Alpines, and MB Quarts (currently in my Pathfinder).

 

I think if you spent some time and money and figured out what you really want could help. In my opinion the self powered subs are marginal at best, but are easy to install and don't cost too much money or time. A little time and money you could get your rig to sound amazing. Those pioneers need about .35 cubed feet of space for a sealed enclosure and sound quite nice. My friend installed 2 12's in his F-350 behind the seat.

[XPLORx4]

What is under your rear carpet in that little cargo area?

 

Recovery gear: tow strap, chain, winch remote, snatch block, shackles.

 

Would a sub even do any good in that location if it were covered up by camping gear?

Edited May 18, 2007 by XPLORx4

[mora2818]

Recovery gear: tow strap, chain, winch remote, snatch block, shackles.

 

Would a sub even do any good in that location if it were covered up by camping gear?

 

Depends but yes. My Subaru sub is in a trunk under the flooring and I have had tons of stuff back there including camping gear. Was it as pronounced? no but it definetly hit and there was plenty of bass. But if there is a concern find a space that you would have room and would be unobstructed. Those shallow subs could probably fit underneath a seat much like you were going to do with a JVC powered sub. I can't remember how much space is underneath them but I am just guessing you could.

[MichiganAve]

Skip that 6" powered sub, it would probably sound horrible.

 

A lot of the small powered subs use porting and bandpassing to make louder bass, the problem is it is very boomy around a narrow range of frequencies and sounds horrible. If you want a sub, then just make a small sealed sub yourself with an 8" or 10"- custom will fit what little space you have. The storage areas in back are good too, but I know you already are using those. I've seen subs hidden underneath dashes, 8s where stock 6.5s go in doors, etc- you can do anything if you are willing to customize a little.

 

There should be room under the front seats if you are creative. Not sure what yours looks like under there, but even with power seats I have room for a cd changer and laptop and power adapter under my seats. You can also massage seats to give more room by pounding up the supporting metal and doing a little foamectomy.

 

I still think you can make things better with some better components up front and an EQ. It wouldn't rival having a sub, but at least better than you have now.

 

I'll help you tune things up when we meet in a few weeks. I'm moving on June 1st.

[nissandoms47]

So what do you guys recommend for sound deadening material? I wanna make it a little quieter inside.

 

Have fun in cali Derrick, you should stop in Moab on the way and test out the Q.

[02silverpathy]

:coffee!: Ditto to Doms, I want to know what Venge would use if he did it again! Meaning what "level" of dynomatt and all....the only deadening I did in my rig was the rear hatch..........many many little card board blockers around the lights and the hatch mech then 6...yes 1..2..3..4..5..6 cans of great stuff in the hatch made for a SUPER solid bass reflex area!! Lol I had 3 12" Infinity Perfects sharing an 1000 watt Memphis amp (roughly 300 watts each at 1.333 ohms) and the rear was solid...the roof and the cargo rack~different story!

 

Any-who I remember venge saying that it made that loud rain water noise go away, and I have also heard the stuff does wonders in doors....since I am sticking those Focal 3pc components in this is very important!!

 

 

XPLORx4 thanks for a great topic!

[XPLORx4]

Update:

 

I've re-evaluated the sound of my system, and I think it's actually OK now for not having a sub. While searching for empty cavities to install a sub, I realized that I still had my factory bottle-jack under the rear passenger seat (which I've never used, since I have the hi-lift). After removing the jack, I relocated my tow strap, chain, and snatch-block to that space, which freed up the rear cargo tray under the carpet.

 

So, what I want to know NOW is, what can I put there, and how should I install it? Pioneer 10" Shallow Sub? Since I regularly use the cargo area, I assume I need to keep the lid to the tray, and mount the sub beneath the lid, so it doesn't get damaged by having stuff on top of it. Should I cut or remove the plastic tray bottom so the sub uses the body sheetmetal? Do I need a custom fiberglass enclosure? Dynamat?

 

I would drive the sub using Ch3+4 of the Alpine amp, and drive the rear 6.5" speakers with the HU.

 

Any advice? Pics of sub installations in that tray?

 

Would I be able to hear the sub if the cargo area is full of gear?

[nissandoms47]

Never thought of putting stuff where the stock bottle jack use to go. Anyway what do you guys think of that E-dead stuff? My friend just picked up like 80 square feet or cubic feet? (idk) to do both our pathfinders. I cant wait.