Front axle options for SAS

[pathmaker1]

I understand that tmorgan but the numbers in that Bobby Long test were for short side inners. Also we are talking about the weakest shaft which is the outer shaft. I have seen that info from Bobby Long on pirate. The outer shafts are most likely to break first. So unless I see some tests on the outers I still believe that D44 chromos ARE stronger that stock D60 shafts.

 

This is a debate that will go on forever unless someone tests these shafts accurately, which you really cant. Also, Bobby Long did not do a shockload test on it just a straight twist. You need to test these shafts in a real world senerio which is basically impossible.

 

This math makes sense to me:

 

Stock D60 stub axle = 30spline x 1 5/16" diameter

Stock D44 stub axle = 19spline x 1 1/4" diameter

That's only a difference of 1/16", or 4.8% in diameter.

 

4340 alloy steel is about 35% stronger than the 1030/1040 steel used in OEM axle shafts.

 

Even if the extra 5%(.0625") diameter of the D60 stub yielded 4x or 20% more strength(not likely), the 4340 D44 alloy outer axle would still be 15% stronger than a stock 1040 D60 stub.

 

 

And also my arguement that a built D44 costs 1/3-1/2 the price of a built D60 depending on if you converted it to 35 spline outers. Price Vs. strenght a well built D44 is strong enough for our application. Now if I had a bunch of money i would have a badass buggy but im on a real world budget.

Edited June 15, 2009 by pathmaker1

[87pathy]

as light as a pathfinder?

 

have you ever looked at the weight?

they are 4K lbs stock!

 

my rig is 5K lbs right now

 

the numbers from bobby are correct..

(bobby Long is a friend of mine,, lives right down the road.)

[Balmer]

What are the best years of F-150's and Broncos for donor choices? Do either have a usable rear axle so that it would be worth buying a full parts vehicle? I know there's a ton of other bronco stuff I can use too so that's what I'm hoping for.

[87pathy]

What are the best years of F-150's and Broncos for donor choices? Do either have a usable rear axle so that it would be worth buying a full parts vehicle? I know there's a ton of other bronco stuff I can use too so that's what I'm hoping for.

 

do you want to go full width?

[Balmer]

do you want to go full width?

 

I'm thinking so...how much wider is full width than stock?

[87pathy]

My rig is stock 1/2 ton width. The ford rears were pretty narrow compared to the front, but thats why the steer so good. (proper acerman angle).

 

best one. 76 / 77 F150.

Or 78/79 EXTENDED cabs, the don't have the cast in C's as they were leaf sprung.

This gives you disk breaks and non casted "C"'s on the axle.

 

IF you can find a 66-73, they are drum brake but have 1/2" thick axle tubes. You can often pick these up for nothing and get a 78/79 bronco front end and pull the knuckles out for the disk brakes (also fairly cheap because they are not the "desirable" HPD44.).

 

One thing you have to watch out for in teh early 70's is the 9 3/8" differential, They are stong, but no gears available, so your stuck with getting a new 3rd member. Axle shafts will work in a standard 9" third stuck into the 9 3/8" housing (no problems).

(you will pay a pretty penny for the 9 3/8" axle bearings too)

 

 

Hope this helps a little bit, or confused you more.

[Balmer]

My rig is stock 1/2 ton width. The ford rears were pretty narrow compared to the front, but thats why the steer so good. (proper acerman angle).

 

best one. 76 / 77 F150.

Or 78/79 EXTENDED cabs, the don't have the cast in C's as they were leaf sprung.

This gives you disk breaks and non casted "C"'s on the axle.

 

IF you can find a 66-73, they are drum brake but have 1/2" thick axle tubes. You can often pick these up for nothing and get a 78/79 bronco front end and pull the knuckles out for the disk brakes (also fairly cheap because they are not the "desirable" HPD44.).

 

One thing you have to watch out for in teh early 70's is the 9 3/8" differential, They are stong, but no gears available, so your stuck with getting a new 3rd member. Axle shafts will work in a standard 9" third stuck into the 9 3/8" housing (no problems).

(you will pay a pretty penny for the 9 3/8" axle bearings too)

Hope this helps a little bit, or confused you more.

 

It helps a lot. When I first planned my swap I was hoping to find a donor vehicle that would supply me with the vast majority of the parts I needed to complete my SAS. The more reaserch I do, the more I become convinced that I'm better off just collecting individual parts from several different vehicles to furnish my SAS. I thought there might be a bronco front end that I could swap right in, radius arms and all, but I guess not eh?

 

So your front axle is wider than your rear? And this is the best set-up? I'm learning more about suspension geometry but I'm not familiar with acerman angle. How much difference in width is there?

 

So it's an EXTENDED cab not a CREW cab for the 78/79 F-150 right?

 

I've seen so many guys running 35"+ boots on their cherokees with stock D30s tha t I was almost considering that axle but I guess that's just silly.

 

I want to do my SAS as gradually as possible to keep the costs down and still be able to take my rig out even on a limited basis. For instance, I'd like to keep the stock rear axle for as long as possible but I guess it would be a lot skinnier than a Ford front end. Although I have crazy backspacing on my wheels so they stick out 3" past the body as is.

 

I'm wanting to wind up with a rig very similar to yours as gradually and cheaply as possible. It's much easier for me to come up with a little money often than a lot of money seldom.

 

A build thread on your's would be wicked.

[87pathy]

the only bronco's that are full width are the 78/79

 

they have crappy D44's.

 

If you get a 77F150, you can use the radius arms and all.

 

yes, extended cab, not CC

 

the axle difference is about 3" over all.

 

research acerman.. it will explain it with diagrahms.

 

If you use an Early bronco (narrower one), the problem is, that the long side of the axle is shorter, the diffential will sit nearly under your oil pan.. and cause interfearance.

[Balmer]

Good to know. I found a 79 F-150 for $2500.00 CAD. It has a HD D60 and a HD D44 with hydraulic stering as well as 205 t-case and a 4 spd std trans without numbers to identify it. It's got a 390 that the seller is claiming 400hp from. Do you think this is worth considering? Would I be able to use the D60 also? What about the 205? I'm thinking I could sell the engine and trans.

Also that guy from Texas with the swap that you don't really care for is selling his on ebay for 3800.00 CAD. What about buying it and modding it to get better angles and such? He used a D44 hp from a full-size bronco...do they totally suck?

[87pathy]

those are going to be really wide. and it has to be a F250 to have the D60 and HD 44.

 

Everytbody says they have a 390.. but its probably a 360, there is no way to tell without pulling the head.

 

the 78-79 bronco's and F150's (not including the extended cab) have thin axle tubes. And the C"s are cast into them.

 

If you want to use the stock radius arms they are OK, if you wnat to do a 3 link or somthing else, you need to re-tube them.

 

i just sold a bare 78 housing for 25 bucks.

 

here is how i would break it down

 

D60rear 500 bucks

HDd44 front 500 bucks

360/390 500 bucks

T case tranny 500 bucks

 

those are top dollar prices.. I personnaly wouldn't pay that much, but you COULD get that much.

 

ON FIBC, get those axles that you asked about, they will work well.

 

(oh the 9 3/8" housing is not in all of the early fords, they were commonly found in F150 extended cabs with posi..

 

You can identify them by a curved rib on the front drivers side of the housing and the housing will not have an N on it,

if it has an N on it and the extra and curved ribs.. thats a good one!)

 

 

If you want to go that route, I have a 75 Highboy for 2000 bucks US that has a electronic ignition 460 in it.. and everything else you already mentioned above

[Balmer]

So you have a rig that has a front axle with suspension that will work AND a rear end that will work plus other stuff I can use AND some stuff I could sell for $2000.00 USD?

If that's the case then we should talk. I don't have all the cash right away but I could pay you in installments and grab the gear once it's all paid up if you're interested.

[Zibi]

I think pathy is asking 2gs for it, not sure you'd get 2gs for whats leftover

 

Then again I'm a retard.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Zibi

[87pathy]

ya, we spoke about it, you don't want my rig...

 

Its too nice to part out.

 

You can find good deals in the Lower main land all the time, I buy parts from there often.

[GrimGreg]

Also the latest concept that i'm gathering feedback for is a H233B front and is listed a here:

 

There is a guy in my club that has a custom (home made) H233b/D44 hybrid. Basically H233b center chunk and third, with the rest being D44 parts, including the inner shafts, just had them recut IIRC.

 

 

Another popular axel I haven't seen mentioned (if it was I missed it) is from older Toyotas.

[nismothunder]

Well since the 360 doesnt really have that much after market suport compared to the none FE engines I think it would be pretty hard to push 400hp from one.That f150 sounds like its been parted out and put back together with junk.its a 79 yet ford stoped making 390s in 74-75 I think,the dana 60 in back is a good axle but a 14 bolt is just as good and you can find parts any where since chevy has been making the same basic axle for about 30 years,

I dont thinks I've ever seen a hd 44 but my 76 k20 had a 44 in front and my tire range veryed from 33-37 inchs and it was a 454 putting about 280hp(going throw a th400 and 37 tsls,chassie dynoed) to the ground.

Futher more a Highboy with a 460 is worth 2k since you could fit 40 inch tall tires on these monsters stock and they where built to last,not like todays trucks.

And a 460 maybe a smog moter but thanks to its size it will walk over 390s all day long.

Edited July 12, 2009 by nismothunder

[Balmer]

Ok, so let's talk Waggy axles...

 

What's the most desireable year/model and why? Are there different widths, hub choices, gearing, etc. depending on year? What about Grand wagoneer Vs. wagoneer - what's the difference in axles? I'm not rich so I'm looking for the best swap to leave as stock as possible. Any help is appreciated, this project is happening asap!

[SC88Pathy]

The difference between the Grand Wagoneer and the Wagoneer (or ZJ) is the Wagoneer was a "small" hardtop SUV and the Grand Wagoneer is their Full Size SUV. They used the same name as the Grand Wagoneer to confuse everyone.

 

Here's some brief info about Grand Wagoneer Dana 44's (it's about swapping them into a Jeep but the basic info applies).

 

http://www.jeepaholics.com/tech/d44foryj/d44foryj.htm (Go to the "route I took" section)

 

Nissan Nut's D21 SUA axle swap page. http://nissannut.com/projects/sas/

[packie88]

you want the grand wagoneer 44 cause its the closest to the width. youll have to regear the front no matter what with a new carrier.... most of them had 3.XX and the pathy either had 4.3 or 4.6 in the rear there fore youll need to get a new carier. and any wagoneer thats not the vacumm disconnect casue then you wont be able to set up the 4wd.. most of them had auto locking hubs... id recommend getting a set of warns.

[sammyb33]

they didnt have auto locking hubs....they had drive slugs...much stronger than warns...but your front axle will be effectively "locked in" all the time

[SteeevO]

Late 80's meaning late 80's - early 90's.

I'm pretty sure all the late 80's Grand Wagoneer D44's are the same width

[tekazgtr1984]

NO.

Not unless you get a different T-case.

Patrol front axle's have the differential on the passengers side.

Pathfinders differential is on teh drivers side.

 

Really? I've done a bit of research and based on what pictures I've seen of JDM Safaris, the tranmission/t-case is positioned exactly the same as the R50 Terrano/Pathfinder. Here's a picture I found of the interior of a '96 Safari Spirit II.

 

 

Does this check out, or am I missing something?

[87pathy]

you are missing something.

 

Patrol H233b front ends are passengers side drop. (unless your are right hand drive, then its drivers..

 

lets simplify.

pathfinder Left hand drop

patrol right hand drop.

 

see below

Edited September 30, 2009 by 87pathy

[tekazgtr1984]

So the front driveshaft crosses? I'm confused to say the least.

 

From the way everything looks from the cab, the t-case is positioned the same. My conclusion would be the t-case in the Safari differs greatly from the R50...

 

I don't get it.

[Balmer]

So the front driveshaft crosses? I'm confused to say the least.

 

From the way everything looks from the cab, the t-case is positioned the same. My conclusion would be the t-case in the Safari differs greatly from the R50...

 

I don't get it.

 

 

Buddy... The way things look "in the cab" have NOTHING to do with what's being discussed here. Look UNDER your vehicle. The transfer case front drive shaft output is on the DRIVER'S side. Therefore, any axle you put in the front for a SAS must be a DRIVER'S side drop ie. the differential housing itself must be on the driver's side of the vehicle. Your comment about the "drive shaft crossing" is right, that's what would happen if you tried to install an axle with the diff on the wrong side... which WOULD NOT WORK!!! the T-case output must match the axle, so if you install an axle with a passenger side drop you have to swap to a T-case that ALSO has a passenger side output. get it?

Edited October 1, 2009 by Balmer

[tekazgtr1984]

Yeah, got it. Buddy.