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Front axle options for SAS


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Just wanted to see what axles everyone is using for solid axle swaps. I know that wagoneer D44's and Bronco D44's are the most popular but I've seen swaps with F-150 D44's also. Any other options out there that don't need to be too heavilly modded? I'm also inteseted in knowing what years of the affore mentioned axles are best? Do they have to be narrowed? what about hub swaps?

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I'd say the wagoneer is currently the best option. it's the late 80's driverside drop D44.

The Ford axles are good too but there are no aftermarket chromoly axle shafts available for those.

 

Also the latest concept that i'm gathering feedback for is a H233B front and is listed a here:

http://ruggedrocksoffroad.com/blog/2009/06...xle-by-diamond/

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I really like that new design! it would be great to keep the hitachi axle in the rear and just add another to the front! Like most of the people commenting on your site though, I'm thinking the R+P prices would have to drop a lot before it made it a better chioce than a 9" or a rear D44 though.

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I really like that new design! it would be great to keep the hitachi axle in the rear and just add another to the front! Like most of the people commenting on your site though, I'm thinking the R+P prices would have to drop a lot before it made it a better chioce than a 9" or a rear D44 though.

 

Yeah, if we have the 5.38's made that are also listed in the concepts blog. they will retail for about $300. I personally think that the $100 price difference at that point is worth keeping the H233B and the axle will physically fit under the truck better being that the diff will be offset correctly for our trucks and the caster and pinion angles will be set as we need it eliminating the need to cut and turn the C's

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steevo, the front h233b will be $300 with gears or just for the housing?

 

i will be running a HPD44 Heavy Duty(out of a 77.5-79 F250 and it has 3" tubes on it) and im keeping it full width. also going with a FF14B out back. im linking the front and rear. my setup is going to be pretty difficult to build but i do have my specs saved on my link calculator. im just long arming the rear for now but ill be double triangulating it in a year or so. front will be a cage arm setup. coilovers eventually. they do make chromoly shafts for my Ford axle. guy on pirate is offering them as well as another company.

 

the concept h233b is a great idea IF prices to build the axle come down. i would run it in a heartbeat if gears and lockers werent rediculously expensive. i have built my D44 for less than $800 with NEW detroit locker and 5.38's. with chromoly shafts and u-joints the bill will be about $1500 for the entire setup. parts are much more readily accessable for the D44 and a hell of a lot cheaper.

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no no check out the the comments in the blog for full details.. the R&P set will be $300 (compared to 450 - 500 from NISMO) the housing will use 3.5" axle tubes with D44 Inner C's & starts @ $900

also building off of the Diamond housing is easier since you can easily weld straight to the housing. you will be able to carry one spare 3rd member and have it fit front and rear.

Of course i can't build a H233B cheaper than a D44, but I feel i can easily build one better than a D44 but be somewhat in the ball park. many of these same points have been brought up already in the blog comments so be sure to check that out as well.

 

In your 1500 D44 price what was rebuilt from the knuckles out? and are you running 30 spline stub shafts?

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steevo, the front h233b will be $300 with gears or just for the housing?

 

i will be running a HPD44 Heavy Duty(out of a 77.5-79 F250 and it has 3" tubes on it) and im keeping it full width. also going with a FF14B out back. im linking the front and rear. my setup is going to be pretty difficult to build but i do have my specs saved on my link calculator. im just long arming the rear for now but ill be double triangulating it in a year or so. front will be a cage arm setup. coilovers eventually. they do make chromoly shafts for my Ford axle. guy on pirate is offering them as well as another company.

 

the concept h233b is a great idea IF prices to build the axle come down. i would run it in a heartbeat if gears and lockers werent rediculously expensive. i have built my D44 for less than $800 with NEW detroit locker and 5.38's. with chromoly shafts and u-joints the bill will be about $1500 for the entire setup. parts are much more readily accessable for the D44 and a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

Just curious, why run a 14B in the rear when you could run a 9" and have a matching lug pattern? The 9" offers a banjo housing and far more clearance and the 9" can be built strong enough to easily handle 500 HP (I can't imagine you're planning on more juice than that). You don't get the full floater axle but that's hardly a benefit when you're running light loads anyway. The 9" is also cheaper and easier to convert to disk I believe.

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Just curious, why run a 14B in the rear when you could run a 9" and have a matching lug pattern? The 9" offers a banjo housing and far more clearance and the 9" can be built strong enough to easily handle 500 HP (I can't imagine you're planning on more juice than that). You don't get the full floater axle but that's hardly a benefit when you're running light loads anyway. The 9" is also cheaper and easier to convert to disk I believe.

 

For the rear i figure you can leave the H233B back there, but put chromo's in it.

then with the H233B front you will have matching gears front and rear as well. and a heck of a lot less labor into it making the 14B or ford 9in fit in the rear.

 

Also some food for thought on the Front Axle... since we can honestly build a H233B with what ever outters we want, D60, D44, Toyota outters..

So here is a D44 vs Toyota Diamond Axle article:

http://www.allprooffroad.com/images/storie...ons/d60vs44.doc

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I'd say the wagoneer is currently the best option. it's the late 80's driverside drop D44.

The Ford axles are good too but there are no aftermarket chromoly axle shafts available for those.

 

Also the latest concept that i'm gathering feedback for is a H233B front and is listed a here:

http://ruggedrocksoffroad.com/blog/2009/06...xle-by-diamond/

 

You can get alloys for them. I know several people who have gotten them.

 

You can always get them from dutchman

 

If you want to go full width balmer, find a F150 or FS bronco doner

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Just curious, why run a 14B in the rear when you could run a 9" and have a matching lug pattern? The 9" offers a banjo housing and far more clearance and the 9" can be built strong enough to easily handle 500 HP (I can't imagine you're planning on more juice than that). You don't get the full floater axle but that's hardly a benefit when you're running light loads anyway. The 9" is also cheaper and easier to convert to disk I believe.

 

 

actually, converting a 9" to disks isn't as easy as you think.

You can't find rotors that will fit over teh axle flange.

 

You can buy kits, but they are expensive. there are a few OE disk brake 9" out there but they are not a bolt on fit, due to offset of the wheel flange Vs. bearing position.

 

the cheapo easy way is use Samuri front rotors and ZX300 rear calipers.

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Just curious, why run a 14B in the rear when you could run a 9" and have a matching lug pattern? The 9" offers a banjo housing and far more clearance and the 9" can be built strong enough to easily handle 500 HP (I can't imagine you're planning on more juice than that). You don't get the full floater axle but that's hardly a benefit when you're running light loads anyway. The 9" is also cheaper and easier to convert to disk I believe.

 

i will break stock 9" shafts. i wont break stock 14B shafts and there is no need to look into chromoly shafts for it. the full floating part is very important and much stronger. the extra pinion support is very important. also if i do manage to break a monster 14B shaft my tire wont fall off and i can pick one up from a junk yard on the cheap. converting it to disks costed me less than $200. detroit locker is $350 which is much cheaper than a 9". also the locker goes inside the carrier vs replacing the carrier. im shaving the 14B including trimming the ring gear and i will actually have more clearance than a 9". im taking about 2.5" off the bottom. all in all ill be spending about $700 to build a rear that will be nearly impossible to break. also im gonna have 8 lug front so the rear does match. also im runnin hummer beadlocks recentered so i need 8 lug.

 

maybe a 9" can handle 500HP but its the shock load you gotta worry about. you start hoppin 38's on an uphill trail and you will snap a 9" shaft like a twig.

 

was considering runnin a semi floating 14B to stick with the stock 6 lug pattern but it is much weaker.

 

the skinny.......the 14B is A LOT stronger than the 9" and much cheaper to build. im so confident with the 14B shafts i dont think ill carry a spare with me.

 

im thinkin a D60 up front is in my future. im gonna see if 44 chromo shafts will handle my right foot and 38's. if i break shafts than im gonna swap in a D60 when i go to coil-overs.

Edited by pathmaker1
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i will break stock 9" shafts. i wont break stock 14B shafts and there is no need to look into chromoly shafts for it. the full floating part is very important and much stronger. the extra pinion support is very important. also if i do manage to break a monster 14B shaft my tire wont fall off and i can pick one up from a junk yard on the cheap. converting it to disks costed me less than $200. detroit locker is $350 which is much cheaper than a 9". also the locker goes inside the carrier vs replacing the carrier. im shaving the 14B including trimming the ring gear and i will actually have more clearance than a 9". im taking about 2.5" off the bottom. all in all ill be spending about $700 to build a rear that will be nearly impossible to break. also im gonna have 8 lug front so the rear does match. also im runnin hummer beadlocks recentered so i need 8 lug.

 

maybe a 9" can handle 500HP but its the shock load you gotta worry about. you start hoppin 38's on an uphill trail and you will snap a 9" shaft like a twig.

was considering runnin a semi floating 14B to stick with the stock 6 lug pattern but it is much weaker.

 

the skinny.......the 14B is A LOT stronger than the 9" and much cheaper to build. im so confident with the 14B shafts i dont think ill carry a spare with me.

 

im thinkin a D60 up front is in my future. im gonna see if 44 chromo shafts will handle my right foot and 38's. if i break shafts than im gonna swap in a D60 when i go to coil-overs.

 

BS.

 

If you think your going to bust a 9" shaft with a nissan 3.L. you need to go back to driving school.

 

i have had a twisted shaft in my 9" for nearly 2 years. I have busted D44 alloys and the detroit.

 

By your logic, just go BB and get a D60 up front, no need to mess around and spend 1K + on a D44 when you can get a D60 for that price.

 

make sure you at lest run 40's because that 14b on 38's is going to be a ditch digger.

my 9" on 36s is a ditch digger.

 

if your going to only run 38's you don't want a 14B.

 

I have seen 9" rears hold up to 38 14.5's without issue, as well as 8.8's.

 

I will be running 38's next year when my 36's are done and the ONLY thing i'm worried about is my D44 front end.

 

FYI, check the actual OD on the 38's you want to run..

Let me guess, you want some tsl/sx's.. they measure only 1.1" larger in diamter than the 36" tsl. (36 x 12.5 tsl = 36.3"OD - 38 x 12.5 tsl sx= 37.4 OD.)

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Just putting it out there, as this SAS stuff is way beyond me, but would a late 80's-early 90's Patrol/Safari SFA work? :scratchhead:

 

NO.

Not unless you get a different T-case.

Patrol front axle's have the differential on the passengers side.

Pathfinders differential is on teh drivers side.

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BS.

 

If you think your going to bust a 9" shaft with a nissan 3.L. you need to go back to driving school.

 

i have had a twisted shaft in my 9" for nearly 2 years. I have busted D44 alloys and the detroit.

 

By your logic, just go BB and get a D60 up front, no need to mess around and spend 1K + on a D44 when you can get a D60 for that price.

 

make sure you at lest run 40's because that 14b on 38's is going to be a ditch digger.

my 9" on 36s is a ditch digger.

 

if your going to only run 38's you don't want a 14B.

 

I have seen 9" rears hold up to 38 14.5's without issue, as well as 8.8's.

 

I will be running 38's next year when my 36's are done and the ONLY thing i'm worried about is my D44 front end.

 

FYI, check the actual OD on the 38's you want to run..

Let me guess, you want some tsl/sx's.. they measure only 1.1" larger in diamter than the 36" tsl. (36 x 12.5 tsl = 36.3"OD - 38 x 12.5 tsl sx= 37.4 OD.)

 

 

its not about the motor man its about the torque. when i have a final ratio of something like 180:1 and IMO I WILL break 9" shafts. im not going to chance it because i can build a 14B for cheaper or the same price as a 9". also no worry about twisting a tube or bending the housing. a 14B is bulletproof for my application. you said your twisting shafts.....what gearing you running? you got duals or even tcase gears or are you all stock there? my 14B shaven with disks will not be much heavier than a 9" AND i WILL have more ground clearance than a 9"......ive already done the math/measurements. you have twisted shafts as you said......try to twist a 14B shaft. you break a shaft and your tire falls off......that would suck. a full floating axle is a far superior axle, bar none!!

 

i would live to find an earlier Eaton 3rd member "14B" but the parts arent readily available and its just not a smart option being how common 14B are.

 

where the hell can you get a BUILT D60 for a grand? please please give up your source. the housing will be $400-$600, locker $400+, R&P + install kit $300, not to mention disk break conversion, 35 spline conversion, etc. i still wouldnt trust a D60 with stock front axle shafts so add another $800 for chromos and u-joints. if you can get me a BUILT D60 with chromos for $1000 ill but it from you RIGHT NOW!!!!! $hit ill even pay $1500 for a locked(detroit, not lunchbox or spool) D60 with chromo shafts, NEW. a BUILT D60 will run about $3000.

 

im running the "rare" 3/4 ton front D44HP. it has 3" tubes(like a 60) and extra webbing on the housing. it is far superior to any other D44 housing ever made. only in production for 1.5 years.

 

i plan on running Maxxis Creepy Crawlers......38X12.5's. they are true 38's and i think they are even slightly bigger.

 

maybe a 9" would handle 38's with just gears and no tcase gears or duals for a bit but it wont last. but when you start running a high ratio that axle is useless. yea it will last a bit but point blank it wont hold up.

 

im building my truck to be bullet proof. i cannot afford a D60 now so my D44 will do the job. also i like rock crawling......hardcore $hit. big huge rocks with lots of drops and holes. thats my cup of tea. give me your 9" on one of my trails and i guarantee ill break a shaft. and i do know how to drive.....you wanna see some vids of me rock crawlin my IFS pathy? i was doing things on 34's with open front/LSD rear that truggy yotas locked/locked on 36-38's couldnt get over. and as i siad i have pics and vids to prove it.

Edited by pathmaker1
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oh and the 14B will not be a ditch digger. the amount of sprung weight over it will be minimal. im ripping out the carpet and back seat. wont have a spare tire back there or the tire carrier......all that will be on the trailer. thinkin about choppin the top behind the back doors. i got a buddys with 60 and FF14B rears and they are unstoppable!!!!!

 

also im extending my wheel base a bit. moving the axles out a few inches in each direction. once again trimming/cutting is not an issue. i wont know how much im moving my front axle foward and rear axle back until i get to that point but it will be in my build thread :)

 

and BTW my pathy is going to be a trailer queen. i have the 93 with a rear locker and 34's to play around with on the "easy" trails.

Edited by pathmaker1
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oh and the 14B will not be a ditch digger. the amount of sprung weight over it will be minimal. im ripping out the carpet and back seat. wont have a spare tire back there or the tire carrier......all that will be on the trailer. thinkin about choppin the top behind the back doors. i got a buddys with 60 and FF14B rears and they are unstoppable!!!!!

 

also im extending my wheel base a bit. moving the axles out a few inches in each direction. once again trimming/cutting is not an issue. i wont know how much im moving my front axle foward and rear axle back until i get to that point but it will be in my build thread :)

 

and BTW my pathy is going to be a trailer queen. i have the 93 with a rear locker and 34's to play around with on the "easy" trails.

 

 

 

the shaft has been twisted for at least 2 years..it was like that when i got it for all i remember.. its been like that. same one...

 

you obviously don't know me or my rig... google my screan name.

Ive wheeled my pathy in some extremely hard core situations. from Princton BC to the rubicon up and down the entire west coast and know what i'm talking about.

 

the 14 bolt is cheap and easy to come buy. but its wide and heavy. I GUARANTEE as soon as you lock the front, your going to break shafts anyway. I broke 2 in 3 months and an alloy and a detroit locker.

If your going to put that big heavy pig in the back, put a D60 up front don't waist money on a D44.

 

IF you push your axle forward, plan on Full Hydro, the steering box is in the way to move it more than about 1-2" (noth worth it) and you can't move the steering box forward becuase it hits the rad.

 

You could get a scout front swting box, but then it will be in the way of your springs (i assume your doing link suspension)

 

do as you please, its your rig.. I'm just putting it out there.

Edited by 87pathy
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i can push my box foward a bit. hydro is in the works but its not going to be there when i finish the "first stage" of my build. and yes im linkin the front. doing a cage arm setup with 6.5" XJ coils.

 

once again i will say a D60 is TWICE as expensive to build, if not more. im pretty confident with my D44 holding up. and seriously your gonna say a STOCK D60 shaft is stronger than a chromoly D44 shaft? i dont think so. maybe with 35 spline outers it might compare at best BUT the price of those, not to mention the $250 for 35 spline lockouts, makes the D60 even more expensive to build.

 

again, my FF14B will not be much heavier than a 9" and a boatload stronger. as far as width it will be about the same as the front.

 

i ask again do you have tcase gears or duals in your rig? im assuming not. i see you have 5.38's and yes i know all axles require gears. i was askin if you were runnin tcase gears or duals. im also gonna run 5.38's but im runnin tcase gears and then duals in the future.

 

a full floating axle is so important on so many levels which i have already listed.

 

i cannot believe you are driving your rig knowing that you have a twisted STOCK shaft. seriously how much could a shaft be at a JY, $50??? you have been very very lucky runnin a busted shaft for so long. also i see your running a hi9. you know reverse cut gears in the rear are much more weaker since they run on the coast side. also what spline shafts you runnin out back. seriously i would replace that shaft before you know longer have rear wheel drive on a trail and trust me it will fail at the worst possible time. and yes it is going to break.

 

we can keep debating this but point blank a D44 chromoly shaft is stronger than a d60 stock shaft. a FF14B is much stronger than a 9". the 14B housing is stronger as well as it being a full floating axle. say what you will but i can have numbers prove my point if need be. you want shaft diameter? tensile strength? shock load? sheering point? i can give you numbers if you like to further prove my point.

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damn dude, take some advice!

 

I have 3.7:1 gears in the case, stak D300 doubler, i'm at 211:1 crawl ratio overall.

 

look it up.. stock D60 shafts ARE stronger than D44 alloys.. I won't even get into this..its common knowledge.

 

anyway.. have fun, i was trying to be helpfull, but you know more..

 

I've been wheeling my built pathfinder for over 3 years

 

and with 5.38:1 ratio its same as stock.. so its right around 42:1..

 

(5.14:1 ratio gets back to stock with 36" tires)

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i missed one thing.

 

 

twisted stock shaft.. because i CAN'T GET A SPARE FROM A JY. (and the curries are 450 bucks)

 

I'm running Pre-73 9 3/8 housing wich is heavier and stronger than a standard 9".

 

also, due to this normal shafts won't fit (wrong lenghts)

 

Pre 73 31spline 9" shafts are nearly the same OD as 14bFF shafts. (had them sitting side by side). the only differenece is, the 9" I have (normally they are different) does not kneck down. most 9" shafts neck down just inside the bearing, and then back up to normal OD at teh splines.. Mine don't kneck down at all till you get to teh splines, even then they are not necked down, just the spline cut into them.

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Honestly, the weight savings between a D44 / D60 and extra 1.5" of ground clearance under the center section are where the argument is won when defending the front axle choice for my Pathfinder.

 

A D60 under something as light as a Pathfinder is overkill.

 

D60 inners are stronger than D44 inners, because there's more of a size difference there than at the outer shafts. However, when comparing the parts that are likely to break first(outer axle shafts), they're not too much different in stock form.

The shorter the axle, the less it will give/twist before snapping and the shortest axles in a D44, or D60 are the outer axles.

 

Stock D60 stub axle = 30spline x 1 5/16" diameter

Stock D44 stub axle = 19spline x 1 1/4" diameter

That's only a difference of 1/16", or 4.8% in diameter.

 

4340 alloy steel is about 35% stronger than the 1030/1040 steel used in OEM axle shafts.

 

Even if the extra 5%(.0625") diameter of the D60 stub yielded 4x or 20% more strength(not likely), the 4340 D44 alloy outer axle would still be 15% stronger than a stock 1040 D60 stub.

 

- A well built D44hp will be strong enough for a Pathfinder and less expensive to build.

 

- The D44 has better ground clearance.

Ground clearance under the center section is about 1.5" lower on a D60. That's basically the same as running tires 3" smaller in diameter.

 

- The D44 is lighter.

You're looking at a weight savings of 100-150lbs depending on how the axle is dressed out.

 

I do appreciate your opinions but I have researched my build for a year before buying parts. I have talked with many people with an incredible amount of knowledge about axles and thats why I have settled on my axle choice. I will have about $2500 in my front and rear axles including lockers, gears, disks on all 4 corners, and 4340 front shafts. Thats about the same it would cost to build 1 front D60. Given the choice between a built 9" and a built shaved FF14B I would take the FF14B everytime.

 

It looks like you have a well build capable rig and Im not trying to talk down about your rig at all. All I am trying to say is I do have reasons for my build that I have done my homework on before starting my build. I believe I have the absolute BEST axle combination vs. price for my build and what Im building the truck to do. Down the road I can make changes if necessary but Im gonna have one hell of a platform when Im done and one very capable rock crawler.

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and seriously your gonna say a STOCK D60 shaft is stronger than a chromoly D44 shaft? i dont think so. maybe with 35 spline outers it might compare at best BUT the price of those, not to mention the $250 for 35 spline lockouts, makes the D60 even more expensive to build.

 

Do all the math you want but the numbers are out there. I hate seeing bad info passed along.

 

Obviously this can't simulate real world driving but Longfield did a test on a bunch of axles and guess what??? A stock 35 spline Dana 60 shaft IS STRONGER than a 4340 Dana 44 shaft. Way too many variables to take into account to fit every situation but take it as you will.

 

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread....=longfield+test

 

Bobby Longs Axle Breaking Machine Results

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hope that everyone at the Jamboree liked the axle breaking demonstration. I really liked it and was really supprised at some of the results.

Here they are:

 

 

PRODUCT / ................................................. FT.LB. TORQUE/.... % TWIST

Yukon 4340 Dana 60 35 spline short side axle.........12,000 ..................130

Stock Dana 60 35 spline short side axle .................6,500 ....................35

Yukon 4340 Dana 44 30 spline short side axle ..........5,800 ...................35

Stock dana 44 30 spline........................................5,00 0.....................35

Yukon 4340 Birfield Eliminator kit (ear failure)............5,500......................50

Longfield 4340 30 spline (shaft failure)......................8,500............... ......175

Longfield 4340 27 spline........................................6,50 0.....................75

Stock Toyota Birfield.......................................... ..4,200 .....................45

Stock Toyota Inner Axle.......................................5,000 .....................45

All Pro "Profield".................................... .... .......... 3,500 ....................30

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