mws Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 The shootings at Virginia Tech were horrible and atrocious and I hope the doer enjoys his time in hell. But something has been bothering me, and I hope I have waited long enough to discuss what is likely going to be an emotionally charged and fundamentally unanswerable topic. We were not there and can't know what really happened. But. Why did there seem to be so little resistance? I heard about some heros blocking doors and sacrificing themselves. But I heard other stories about him lining up victims and walking down the line shooting with what seems like passive acceptance of death from the victims. How can that happen? Why did so many remain passive? After 2 or 3 minutes you know he is there only to kill. So your choices are to fight for some lives to be spared (maybe not your own, but many others), or follow the orders of a madman and wait for your turn to be shot. Why did so many choose the latter? I can not possibly do that, and I can't understand it. If even 3 swarmed him at the same time, he could have been subdued to allow the rest to escape. Even 1 attacking him may have fundamentally changed the momentum of the situation and ended it so much sooner. What are we doing wrong in our society to lead to so many being passive victims and so few to be heroic fighters? May the victim's families find their peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 i think the shock of the sudden attack could have had something to do with it, i know from experience what it feels like to have a gun pointed at you..... everyone reacts differently, my friend froze solid and i dove for cover... no shots were fired but my self preservation took over, where as his fear took hold. the 3 times in my life i have encountered ghosts, i froze in fear. i could NOT MOVE for the life of me, nor could i make any sounds, although inside i was screaming. i think in the VT ordeal, students will never think "that's going to happen to them", and many have never heard the sound of a gun shot, or by the time they realized what it was, it was too late.... fear took over in the reality, and only those with the shock of self preservation took action........ it was a terrible tragedy that should never have happened, unfortunately, much as i pray, and would love to believe it will never happen again, it will. society has changed, and there is so much more pressure on the youth of today to succeed, and i feel everyone is too busy to notice when someone is not "themselves"..... in other words, i feel like people just don't care about others like they used to. I know that is not the majority, but i just sometimes feel no one cares anymore, unless it revolves around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airrun2002 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Slick i very much agree with you and i also think that alot of what goes on has to do with parents not paying attention and especially not diceplining their children. im 21 years old and i have been beat with a belt in my youth and i never once thought about calling the police on or suing my parents our society is going to hell when p;arents cant dicepline their children for fear of going to jail or being sued, then people wonder how these sort of things happen. i for one am tired of 13 year olds who think they know everything and think they are hot sh!t because if you touch them they can sue you, i long to have the days back when a stranger could beat your a$$ if you were misbehaving in the supermarket. kids today have no respect for anyone and i hope the next generation doesnt turn out to be a bunch of pansys like the young ones now. *steps off soapbox and shakes head* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfisch1191 Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 Slick i very much agree with you and i also think that alot of what goes on has to do with parents not paying attention and especially not diceplining their children. im 21 years old and i have been beat with a belt in my youth and i never once thought about calling the police on or suing my parents our society is going to hell when p;arents cant dicepline their children for fear of going to jail or being sued, then people wonder how these sort of things happen. i for one am tired of 13 year olds who think they know everything and think they are hot sh!t because if you touch them they can sue you, i long to have the days back when a stranger could beat your a$$ if you were misbehaving in the supermarket. kids today have no respect for anyone and i hope the next generation doesnt turn out to be a bunch of pansys like the young ones now. *steps off soapbox and shakes head* i totaly agree, me being at that age and seeing what goes on. there has not been one fight at are school in 3 years (not that fighting is the always the answer but it shows todays kids will not stand up for themselfs<pansys>) i hope if there is ever an incident like VT or 911 i wold do somthing, but i have never been in a situation so i do not no what i wold do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 shock, softness, selfishness.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I didn't follow much of the coverage of this event, considering it yet another atrocity and media malinformation pool. Cold perhaps? It's how I have learned to absorb such incidents... I read about some smart folk that blocked doors with tables, staying on either side of the door frame to hold things in place... Nicely done!! I read about teachers blocking doors in the line of fire and dying for it. Hopefully it served some purpose (saving lives). I didn't read that some people were lined up and shot, but it's not like I know what really happened. What I will say is that if 1-2 people in the immediate area had a cc permit and were packing, the story would have been much shorter. I do not condone violence, much less shootings, but this one is obvious. The sad part is that it occurred at a school, a place that people feel safe and free. The unfortunate thing is that 'safe and free' are conditional terms and usually need to be fought for. That is no longer taught in school. This is perhaps why there was so little resistance? If people were lined up to be shot by a single assailant, that is pathetic. A gun is an offensive weapon, not defensive. Out of line it is useless and that is easily achieved, especially if there are several in opposition. Like Martin mentioned, it would only take a few people to rush him (one if he was serious). Someone may get shot, but that is better than all and doesn't mean death either. I have worked as a bouncer/security in the past and have had guns pulled on me. I'm no hero, but I prefer not to be shot so I paid attention as to where the barrel was pointed... Yes, I have disarmed 'gunmen'. No they weren't in 'killing' mode. Still, it's not amusing or for the weak of heart, but nor does a gun make a person in control or the winner. Not having been there at the VT massacre I certainly can not comment on it, but one would think that someone could have done something... For christ sake, he had to reload. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Good post B. However, there is one very important piece that you're not including. Even if you have a CCW Permit, it is still illegal for you to carry in any Government buildings, hospitals, or schools (colleges and universities included). Virginia Tech is a state, public university. It is a state government institution, so the land is state government property, as well as a university. It's illegal to carry there. And in such cases where there are locations where it's illegal to carry, only those who intend to break the law and cause harm will be the ones carrying. Those who are responsible and have the required permits know the laws and OBEY them. I have VA, MD and AZ CCWs, and subsequently I get reciprocity in many of the contigous states, except NY, of course, because that would be too easy. Even though I have it, and I have a very good carry weapon, I usually do not conceal. VA and AZ are both Open Carry states, where it is legal to carry a handgun holstered in plain sight, as long as you are the registered owner of said handgun. I prefer to do this, because it allows me to carry my .45ACP, as opposed to my 9mm for more stopping power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Even if you have a CCW Permit, it is still illegal for you to carry in any Government buildings, hospitals, or schools (colleges and universities included). Ok, good point. I didn't realize that or stop to think about it. I still argue that something could have been done though. I always carry a large lock blade and I'm pretty sure I could savage someone with it while they were shooting. If I was close enough, that is. I never did figure out how to throw it... I always found open carry somewhat tacky unless in the wild, but to each their own. If you can't stop someone (short of PCP user) with a 9mm, a bigger bore may not be the answer, imho. This comming from a .357 fan... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I agree that the difference between 9mm and .45 is not much, in terms of stopping power, but open carry does allow for a much faster draw, and the fact that you've got a gun clearly visible is definitely a deterrant to most would-be muggers. I think for me, the biggest difference is that I'm a lot more comfortable using the .45 than the 9mm. It just fits my hand better, so I use it more often at the range, thus, I've got more practice with it, and am more used to the sights, so I'm more accurate with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 Sorry, late comer to this one but it it important. "Gun Free Zones" = Killing Fields. It is that simple. The sooner we abolish these imaginary safe areas the sooner we will see the end of these kinds of terrible acts. Someone who has purchased a firearm through legal channels, has passed an FBI background check and who has then been photographed, fingerprinted, trained and licensed by the state to carry should not be barred from carrying their CCW on school grounds, in bars, in churches and anywhere else they go. Disarmed Defenseless Dead In my opinion there should be no license required to carry concealed, but that's another story. . . my $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 That coming from a Canadian, no less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey.T Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 licensed by the state to carry should not be barred from carrying their CCW on school grounds, in bars, in churches and anywhere else they go. Ummm you left out State Parks and crossing into neighboring states.... Risk confiscation or fines vs my family and I being safe... because the criminals dont follow those rules.... Hell Im not supposed to pack on company property, its in the employment contract... Whats funny is I have not met a member of Law Enforcement that does not pack when camping in StateParks or crossing into neighboring states.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Posted June 15, 2007 Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) That coming from a Canadian, no less...blink.gif Me? Canadian? Nope, wrong Vancouver. I'm from Washington. Canada wouldn't like me very much. Ummm you left out State Parks and crossing into neighboring states.... Risk confiscation or fines vs my family and I being safe... because the criminals dont follow those rules.... Hell Im not supposed to pack on company property, its in the employment contract... Yes. I did forget those. If a driver's license is valid nationwide, why aren't CCWs? Makes no sense whatsoever. But hey, nobody was ever killed by a car or anything. Say, does the state issue freedom of religion permits or is that one of those constitutional deals?......I can never remember. BTW LEOs can carry in all 50 states so long as they're qualified with their dept. and can provide the proper ID to local authorities. You can get non-resident permits from states like Utah and Florida that are honored in 35-38 states I believe. You'll just have to map you trips out beforehand on www.handgunlaw.us That is, until we repeal all of these pointless gun laws. Edited June 15, 2007 by Oliver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 This was my take on the situation as well. I am a Virginian and know lots of folks at Tech. The fact that it is illegal to carry a weapon on a university campus left everyone there defenseless against this nutcase. I will never understand the folks who scream "we need more gun control" after situations like this! Too much gun control took away the victim's right to defend themselves. Me? Canadian? Nope, wrong Vancouver. I'm from Washington. Canada wouldn't like me very much.Yes. I did forget those. If a driver's license is valid nationwide, why aren't CCWs? Makes no sense whatsoever. But hey, nobody was ever killed by a car or anything. Say, does the state issue freedom of religion permits or is that one of those constitutional deals?......I can never remember. BTW LEOs can carry in all 50 states so long as they're qualified with their dept. and can provide the proper ID to local authorities. You can get non-resident permits from states like Utah and Florida that are honored in 35-38 states I believe. You'll just have to map you trips out beforehand on www.handgunlaw.us That is, until we repeal all of these pointless gun laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 The trouble with America is that not enough people have guns. More guns please. The bigger the better! With more guns less people would have been killed? At least that is the argument being put forward by some people. Now now, no smart arse realistic or educated replies please. We don't want to hear that more "shooting" events will occour. That's not the point! But even when they did, just make it legal to carry grenades and rocket launchers. That will keep the numbers being killed by guns low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 The trouble with America is that not enough people have guns. More guns please. The bigger the better! With more guns less people would have been killed? wackinit.gif At least that is the argument being put forward by some people. Now now, no smart arse realistic or educated replies please. We don't want to hear that more "shooting" events will occour. That's not the point! But even when they did, just make it legal to carry grenades and rocket launchers. That will keep the numbers being killed by guns low. itsallgood.gif Good point. Why should anyone be allowed to own a gun. Life in America is EXACTLY how it is portrayed on TV and in the movies. I suppose those folks in Virginia had no right to defend themselves. When the police did eventually respond, only 30+ people lay dead. That's not so bad, eh? What's 30 people in a school the size of VT? We should follow the British/Australian model. They have perfect police protection at all hours of the day and night and when somebody breaks into a home, the cops are there waiting for them, right? They live in a perfectly safe society free from the evils of civilian firearm ownership and all of the criminals refuse to illegally acquire guns for future use against an unarmed population. They're such nice guys. Then there are the 4,000,000 times each year that privately-owned guns are used to stop crimes in America. I guess those are the occasions when us rough and rowdy cowboys aren't out robbing banks and shooting children. After all, that is the favorite past time of us gun nuts. Well, I guess all of us law-abiding gun owners should face the facts and turn them all in to the government. They are here to protect us. What better threat to our safety than our own guns? C'mon guys! Let's be like the British and the Canadians and the Australians! Let's turn our means of self-defense over to the proper local authorities. They've never been known to abuse power or illegally perform searches or arrests on non-offending citizens. (see New Orleans, LA following Katrina) Oh well. Some people like to live in a protective bubble of naivety. What can ya do? Bang Bang Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 The trouble with America is that not enough people have guns. More guns please. The bigger the better! With more guns less people would have been killed? At least that is the argument being put forward by some people. Now now, no smart arse realistic or educated replies please. We don't want to hear that more "shooting" events will occour. That's not the point! But even when they did, just make it legal to carry grenades and rocket launchers. That will keep the numbers being killed by guns low. 'Damn redneck Ozian... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 (edited) Good point. Why should anyone be allowed to own a gun. Life in America is EXACTLY how it is portrayed on TV and in the movies. I suppose those folks in Virginia had no right to defend themselves. When the police did eventually respond, only 30+ people lay dead. That's not so bad, eh? What's 30 people in a school the size of VT? We should follow the British/Australian model. They have perfect police protection at all hours of the day and night and when somebody breaks into a home, the cops are there waiting for them, right? They live in a perfectly safe society free from the evils of civilian firearm ownership and all of the criminals refuse to illegally acquire guns for future use against an unarmed population. They're such nice guys. Then there are the 4,000,000 times each year that privately-owned guns are used to stop crimes in America. I guess those are the occasions when us rough and rowdy cowboys aren't out robbing banks and shooting children. After all, that is the favorite past time of us gun nuts. Well, I guess all of us law-abiding gun owners should face the facts and turn them all in to the government. They are here to protect us. What better threat to our safety than our own guns? C'mon guys! Let's be like the British and the Canadians and the Australians! Let's turn our means of self-defense over to the proper local authorities. They've never been known to abuse power or illegally perform searches or arrests on non-offending citizens. (see New Orleans, LA following Katrina) Oh well. Some people like to live in a protective bubble of naivety. What can ya do? Bang Bang Bang And your point is what? I was agreeing with the "American way". If it moves... shoot it. If you don't like what was said.. shoot it. If you get angry...shoot it. If you get cut off when driving... shoot it. Don't like the way someone looks at you.. shoot it. It works well. So well in fact that I am surprised that "Me Too" (John Howard) hasn't adopted it. Who cares that the Canadian, British or Australian (just to name a few countries) way of life is safer? I certainly don't! Just because facts aren't in the "American ways" favour means jack to me. The United States is 96th out of 121 counties in a peaceful nation survey. The survey obviously doesn't understand the American way either. More guns = more safety.... CORRECT! It couldn't possibly mean more sickos with guns... COULD IT? (I was going to put a think smiley here but it would have been lost on you). We come in peace... shoot to kill, sounds like fun. Rings true too. It's a mindset that hundreds of peaceful countries struggle to comprehend. Perhaps you could explain it for **** heads like me. As for your "Life in America is EXACTLY how it is portrayed on TV and in the movies." line. You want to talk about being naive? That line there is naive! You should have suggested the news. It is the NEWS that gives the game away not movies or TV shows. Edited June 25, 2007 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 'Damn redneck Ozian... What part of that constitutes my being a red neck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammyb33 Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Well put Vsicks. I personally believe in a stricter gun control idea. It pains me to hear people spout off this BS saying that if more people were allowed to carry we would have less crazies shooting up schools. ARE YOU KIDDING? So if more people have access to guns you are trying to tell me that the crime rate would go down? That does not make any sense to me at all. It would just allow more people (who might not be mentally stable to actually own a gun themselves..) who did not previously have access to guns get one, and then do something horrible. No matter what the answer is not more guns, it should be less guns. I respect the people who get their concealed weapons permit and carry permits because they are the responsible ones (usually) and have no problem with them, dont get me wrong. I just dont understand how people can say that if there were more guns the VT shooting would have been stopped earlier, whos to say the victims (if they had been "packing") where crack shots? whos to say they would have missed, and then hit an innocent person? It just doesn't make sense to me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PATHY90 Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 what happened is sociaty is people have no more honor. taking pride in things like your family, and defending that honor with your hands. now people are to weak to fight so they perfer to fight in gangs as a mob, or just shoot. hell seems alot easier then accualy fighting hand to hand..maybe thats why i perfer to carry a knife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 what happened is sociaty is people have no more honor. taking pride in things like your family, and defending that honor with your hands. now people are to weak to fight so they perfer to fight in gangs as a mob, or just shoot. hell seems alot easier then accualy fighting hand to hand..maybe thats why i perfer to carry a knife. You have given me reason to wonder if it is attitudes like yours that compels someone is carrying a gun in the first place? People that resort to violence are weak PERIOD! It shows a lack of maturity, reasoning and understanding of a situation or potential situation. To use a weapon, any weapon, is just cowardly. Though, you'd have to be pretty good to kill more that a couple of people at a time with a knife before someone punched your head in and stopped you. I acknowledge that given the "lawlessness" of some countries and the fear that that generates, that a knife might be a good investment. I am hoping that I misunderstood your post and this is the case. May I put this to you? What if only 3% of the population (good or bad) of the USA had guns? Yeah, yeah, some &^%$wit is going to say what about criminals and the guns they have. My answer is.... who gives a sh!t! What do you honestly think the death toll would be through random or premeditated violence? Higher or lower? Would you feel safer? Perhaps you'd feel safe enough to not carry a knife. Food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I have to admit that I underestimated some people on this board. I half expected some foolhardy individuals to argue about what I said. It's pretty hard to argue against logic like that though isn't it? It just makes sense and I am glad the point was made so loud and clear. I congratulate all who looked in on this thread and took in what was said. Now how about working toward outlawing guns in the US so you can at least live with some sense of peace and community. I couldn't stand to think my kids may never come home from school or a spouse from their work place, knot knowing if they are going to be killed by some nut with a gun???? I don't know how or even why you'd put up with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostPath Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I have to admit that I underestimated some people on this board. I half expected some foolhardy individuals to argue about what I said. It's pretty hard to argue against logic like that though isn't it? It just makes sense and I am glad the point was made so loud and clear. I congratulate all who looked in on this thread and took in what was said. Now how about working toward outlawing guns in the US so you can at least live with some sense of peace and community. I couldn't stand to think my kids may never come home from school or a spouse from their work place, knot knowing if they are going to be killed by some nut with a gun???? I don't know how or even why you'd put up with it. Have you looked at the stats in your own country? Australia all but outlawed guns a few years ago, and look! Your gun crime rate has (IIRC) tripled, along with your homicide rate. Why do you think that is? If guns are the problem, then why does banning them produce the opposite of the desired results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavelow Leaks Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 weapons of any sort have never been the problem, its stupid people that are the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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