cvearl Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) A little history. I came from a 1996 Dodge Caravan with a 3.0 Litre engine and auto transmission. We drove it in and out of the mountains several times a year with a heavy load (4 people and luggage and a coupla bikes on a rack). Subsequently, after 8 years, 200,000 kms and a dozen runs into and out of the moutains per year, that van went through 2 trannies, untold number of belts, brakes, tires and so on. Within 5 years of owning it, it developed horrible creaking in the front suspension and terribly loud ticking from under the head that never could be solved. In the end it cost me nearly $8,000 over the purchase price of $14,000 when I bought it as an already 2 year old vehicle to keep it on the road the 8 years I had it. On top of that, it never could really tow anything. It was kinda useless. Every time we went to the mountains the Engine light came on resulting in some minor repair to the engine or whatever. It was like clockwork. Mountains = repairs. So I decided this time I would research the hell out of my next vehicle. I chose the 2002 Pathfinder. A nice tough truck? Well I have driven it 3000 kms (now has 143,000 on it). This last weekend we went on a typical camping trip. We loaded it with 3 bikes, 3 adults, camping gear and a canoe (see pic). The back end dropped 3 or 4 inches and the handling got noticably sluggish and sloppy. The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is 2,400 kilograms (5,280 lbs) both on the door sticker and on Nissans spec sheet. Well half way to the mountains I pulled over and weighed it as it felt like it was driving funny. We had it loaded to 2380 Kilograms (5,236 lbs). Right on the limit. See the pictures at the end of this to see the vehicle loaded. Take note of the dip of the rear end compared to the front end. I did not think I loaded it that much. Typical camping loadout. A few coolers. A coupla suit cases. Sleeping bags. Airbeds. 3 Mountain Bikes and a Canoe. The usual. Really I even weighed it with just me in the truck a few days ago. 2100 Kilograms with a full tank and my 190 lbs ass in the drivers seat. That means I loaded it with an additional 300 kilograms (everything including the 2 passengers). Which is only about 650 pounds. Really not that much as far as I can tell. What's 650 lbs worth of stuff? Typical is it not? Take off the 2 female passengers and it's about 400 lbs worth of canoe, bikes and gear. This drive we do into the rocky mountains (From Calgary Alberta to Cranbrook BC) contains about 1 and a half hours of semi-steep climbing and decents and can be a decent work out for a vehicle when under load or towing. On the way back from this trip we had just come out of the mountains and were gently coasting on level ground in cruise at 100 km/h and the unthinkable... The dreaded engine light came on and has been on for 2 days and I am taking it in next week to see what it is. My wife gave me a look that burned my very soul. Now driving it in the City last few days it seems ok but over 90 km/h there is a bit of a gentle shake in the steering wheel that I do not remember from the first 3 weeks I drive it and of course the light is still on. Have I ruined this truck by loading it that heavy? I thought this was about as tough a mid sized SUV as you could get. Pic for you to see what I mean in the rear end... Edited August 8, 2006 by cvearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zack1978 Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I doubt very much that you did any damage to your truck! Check engine lights do come on, it happens. Get it checked out, I don't thik that you will find any connection to the trip. Zack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey.T Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) Not being familiar with the R50 suspension, can you get Air Bags for the rear to level out the load???? Like this??? AC ot this?Kit Edited August 8, 2006 by Casey.T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 Thanks guys. Interresting kit by the way. I will have to look into that as I will often put 250lbs worth of gear into the cargo area at a minimum with at least 2 passengers when going on short trips. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) The "Service Engine Soon" light may be totally unrelated to your camping trip. Get it checked out. It could be as simple as an improperly tightened gas cap. The stock suspension on the Pathy is biased to provide a comfortable ride (instead of a stiff truck-like ride) when empty. The problem with this design approach is that when you use the vehicle for hauling loads (such as what you did), the rear suspension can't really do its job well. Just like you, I had this problem very early in my ownership experience, when I used the Pathy to carry passengers and tow a boat. The solution to this, when towing or hauling, was two-fold: 1) Install helper springs, in the form of inflatable air bags that insert inside the rear coil springs, and help support the extra weight over the rear axle. Read about my installation here. 2) Install adjustable shocks, whose shock rate can be increased to dampen the spring oscillations when there is significantly more load on the springs, and decreased when the vehicle is empty. Read about my installation here. When the Pathy was serving as a daily driver, the airbags and shocks were set to their minimum settings. When loaded down, I would pressurize the airbags to help level the load, and would dial in the shocks to provide a more controlled ride. My Pathy is lifted now, and the stiffer springs help compensate for heavy loads, so I don't really use the airbags anymore, but I always adjust the shocks when I've loaded the truck full of gear, or the rear end bounces up and down excessively. Edited August 8, 2006 by XPLORx4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
90seven Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) 5,280lbs. Is that the tow limit or payload limit? Wouldn't it be less stress to tow than load it? Edited August 8, 2006 by 90seven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 5,280lbs. Is that the tow limit or payload limit? Wouldn't it be less stress to tow than load it? Payload limit. Tow limit is 5000 lbs. It would be less stressful to the suspension and chassis to tow than to load the cargo area up, but it sounds like in his case, towing isn't feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 Next year my config will change. I am getting a tent trailer. About 2000 lbs I suppose. There is a bike rack system for them. I will load the 3 or 4 bikes on top of the trailer. Then half the gear will be in the trailer storage. So ya. The trailer axle takes alot of the load. All the light stuff like sleeping bags and clothes and such will be in cargo which will not be much over 100 lbs in there. The boat stays on the roof. So I guess it will make things easier when I do that. Thanks again for all the replys! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 (edited) 5,280lbs. Is that the tow limit or payload limit? Wouldn't it be less stress to tow than load it? Ya as was said... The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) 5,280 lbs for my pathy is set by the engineers as the max safe mechanical weight the frame, drive train, axles, suspension and wheels can handle during regular driving. It is a very bad idea to exceed the limit as I understand it. In the case of a pathfinder 01 to 05, you are not supposed to be more than 5280 lbs when loaded. This includes passengers and cargo and roof rack load combined. Only way to know what you weigh is one of those big vehicle scales on the side of the highway usually. With these pathfinders that would be roughly 4 adults (about 180 lbs each) and about 300 lbs of miscellaneos load (boat, bikes and gear or whatever). And then apparently as long as you are under that GVWR you can still pull close to the towing capacity of the vehicle. The engine can do it. It's a matter of how much weight is on each axle. That includes the trailers axle bearing some of the load. My guess is a Pathy headed into the mountains is comfortable with 4 passengers, 3000 - 3500 pound trailer in tow and roughly 250 lbs in cargo area and roof rack junk? Anyone know that answer or have experience under that kind of load when climbing or desending semi-steep grades?? C. Edited August 8, 2006 by cvearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 It'll do just fine. I towed a 4,500lb trailer, along with another 1,000lbs in my Pathy through the Poconos in PA. Got absolutely DEPLORABLE gas mileage and it was slow going, but it did just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 8, 2006 Author Share Posted August 8, 2006 That sounds like a pretty meaty load! :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 Next year my config will change. I am getting a tent trailer. About 2000 lbs I suppose. There is a bike rack system for them. I will load the 3 or 4 bikes on top of the trailer. Then half the gear will be in the trailer storage. So ya. The trailer axle takes alot of the load. All the light stuff like sleeping bags and clothes and such will be in cargo which will not be much over 100 lbs in there. The boat stays on the roof. So I guess it will make things easier when I do that. Thanks again for all the replys! C. You're still going to want some way to supplement the rear suspension when towing. The tongue weight of the trailer will affect the rear suspension. It may not sag as much as it does now, but it will definitely be apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 8, 2006 Share Posted August 8, 2006 I'm not surprised it threw a CEL at 145,000 klicks. Cars don't work perfectly forever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 I'm not surprised it threw a CEL at 145,000 klicks. Cars don't work perfectly forever... 145,000 clicks (km) = 90,625 miles. That's still pretty young! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainman Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 Looking at the picture, one issue is how the load is distributed. It looks very biased to the rear (what with the bikes and stuff in the rear, behind the back seat) so I am not surprised that you had some issues. This would have a negative impact on the handling, as well as putting a lot of strain on the rear suspension. But very tough to remedy. The trailer will help quite a bit. I had a CEL at 70,000 km, it was a valve timing sensor. Comes back on every 5,000 km or so. My local shop just resets it for me (for free, nice guys ). It just seems to be a momentary glitch, enough to set the light off. For some reason, the computer is unable to reset itself as its supposed to if a trigger for the CEL (or SES) light goes away. So I just keep checking it and re-setting. One light was an O2 sensor, no biggie, rest are the other thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 I have a major service due at 144,000kms. So basically what I did was call the local Nissan garage to book the appointment. I meantioned the light and they said I should remove and re-seat the gascap and turn till I get at lest 8 clicks and then drive as usual. The light should go out in the next 2 or 3 ignition starts and stops. It worked. They said it was a vacumm error code or somehting like that concerning the gas cap not being tight enough and said it was the most common reason the light comes on. I remember I ran over one of those roadside washboards that are there to wake you up by vibrating your vehicle. That's pretty much precisely when it came on. I think that the cap might have lost it's seal when I ran over that. So as XPLORx4 said... """The "Service Engine Soon" light may be totally unrelated to your camping trip. Get it checked out. It could be as simple as an improperly tightened gas cap.""" Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 I'm not surprised it threw a CEL at 145,000 klicks. Cars don't work perfectly forever... Heh.. Since I am a used car buyer kinda guy, under 150k is young. 100k is practically new! That is if you buy the right vehicle and it gets checked out so you know it was treated right. Case and point... I bought a 1996 Caravan in 1998 for $14,000 and it had only 40k or so on it. Now it has 240k and I have done 8 or 9 thousand in repairs (2 tranies, multiple head gaskets, major belts, pulleys and other minor items). I sold it for $800 this year 2006. My friend bought a 1996 Toyota 4Runner in 1998 with about the same mileage for roughly $28,000. Has spent under $1500 in repairs since then. Has just a little less km's on it but they are close. They are still selling on lots and in the paper in my city for $12,000 to $15,000 give or take depending on the condition and km's. Nissan Pathys and Toyota 4Runners retain thier value and are built alot better than N American unfortunately. What happend to my Van is simular to what I have seen happen to Jimmies, Blazers and Ford Exploders. Likely the same happens with Durangos and Trail Blazers as well. They just depreciate too fast and break down too often. So I estimate that 140,000 kms on a pathy is like 70,000 kms on most other competing vehicles in terms of resale and lifespan. But this is just a theory I have yet to prove personally. I guess I will know in 6 more years. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted August 9, 2006 Share Posted August 9, 2006 FWIW, I have over 153,000 miles on my 97 Pathy, and have spent about $3000 on unscheduled maintenance, the majority of which was replacing the exhaust manifold, catalytic converters, and distributor ($2200) in order to pass emissions. This was the single most expensive repair I've ever had to pay for. Over the years, I have also had to replace the EVAP canister, the lower control arm bushings, and a leaky power steering hose, which cost another few hundred. The engine, tranny, t-case, and the rest of the drivetrain have not had any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 9, 2006 Author Share Posted August 9, 2006 (edited) There ya go. About the same age as my 96 Caravan and about the same km's. You spent $3000. I spent over $8,000. Mine was worth under $1000 on the street last month. Your's is worth about $10,000. Mine was getting close to a major mechanical failure. I could feel it comming. Your's will go for years to come with a little care. Hmmm.. And it's a truck that can tow or go 4x4 and mine was a Minivan. Good for soccer kids or whatever. Hahaha. Which was the better investment? Edited August 10, 2006 by cvearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herm Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 consider swapping in new coils in the rear - either Nissan or Old man emu, and see what happens. You'll increase the ability to carry weight with less sag either way. If the previous owner used it for heavy roadtrips the rear coils may be beat, but even if it had a reasonably low weight life, they fatigue easily. Take a look at the condition of the bumpstops - if they are missing, then the coils have been bottomed out many times before. Really easy to replace the coils. You could consider rear shocks as well if they are original - Old Man Emu shocks are about twice the diameter of Nissan. Even if you trailer the load, rear coils/shocks will greatly affect handling. m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 (edited) consider swapping in new coils in the rear - either Nissan or Old man emu, and see what happens. You'll increase the ability to carry weight with less sag either way. If the previous owner used it for heavy roadtrips the rear coils may be beat, but even if it had a reasonably low weight life, they fatigue easily. Take a look at the condition of the bumpstops - if they are missing, then the coils have been bottomed out many times before. Really easy to replace the coils. You could consider rear shocks as well if they are original - Old Man Emu shocks are about twice the diameter of Nissan. Even if you trailer the load, rear coils/shocks will greatly affect handling. m. Hey thanks! I just found this too. I'll have to look into this. Buyers Alerts link on the right side of this page... But what is a Bound Bumper? Buyer's Alerts Nissan Pathfinder, 2001-2003 A squeak, rubbing, or "wheezing" noise coming from the steering column when turning may call for a new steering column assembly (TSB NTB03-007, January 2003). If the rear suspension bottoms out excessively when the vehicle is loaded, Nissan has replacement bound bumpers and steel bound bumper seats to help address the issue (NTB02-081, July 2002). If the automatic transmission "flares" on upshifts, this condition may call for a new transmission control module (NTB01-055a, September 2001; NTB00-084, Oct. 2000). A new rear hatch assembly may be necessary if the rear hatch latch moves to the secondary latching position when driving over bumps or other rough surfaces (NTB01-026, April 2001). (Service bulletin information courtesy of Alldata Corp) Edited August 10, 2006 by cvearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted August 10, 2006 Share Posted August 10, 2006 Bound bumper is stupid for bumpstop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 Bound bumper is stupid for bumpstop. Ya I just looked into it. Takes 4" of travel out of the suspension? And all it basically does it put rubber between the axle and the bottom of the truck to prevent bottoming out too hard? Does nothing to prevent the sag though? So I guess some of the other suggestions are key here. Thanks again. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvearl Posted August 10, 2006 Author Share Posted August 10, 2006 (edited) consider swapping in new coils in the rear - either Nissan or Old man emu, and see what happens. You'll increase the ability to carry weight with less sag either way. If the previous owner used it for heavy roadtrips the rear coils may be beat, but even if it had a reasonably low weight life, they fatigue easily. Take a look at the condition of the bumpstops - if they are missing, then the coils have been bottomed out many times before. Really easy to replace the coils. You could consider rear shocks as well if they are original - Old Man Emu shocks are about twice the diameter of Nissan. Even if you trailer the load, rear coils/shocks will greatly affect handling. m. That is one wicked link in your sig! You write all that? Also... The Old Man Emu shocks... Hows the ride compared to Nissan Stock when the vehicle is no load and whippin around the city with speed bumps, cornering, average paved ride and such. Bouncy? C. Edited August 10, 2006 by cvearl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OR99.5Speed Posted August 11, 2006 Share Posted August 11, 2006 cvearl, I would heartily recommend you get either the OME or AC lift. The OME sounds like a great choice for you, with either the OME shocks or Rancho 9000x adjustable shocks. Don't pay too much attention to GVWR and stuff...you're using your SUV like it should be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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