Highway Driving In Snowy/ Icy Conditions

[Vla416]

Hi guys, I just had a close call, and wonder whether anyone had any winter driving tips for me.

 

Namely, I was driving on Highway 35/115, off the 401, east of Toronto, Ontario. The highway was partially covered with snow, and I was doing 90 km/h (in a 100 zone), in RWD. At one point, I noticed the road had completely iced over and I made a dumb move of changing to the left lane, only to see it in worse condition (it was late at night, and not many cars were on the road). I then made an even dumber move and decided to switch back to the right lane, reducing the speed by taking my foot of the gas (I didn't break). Well at this point, my rear wheels started sliding off to the right--I corrected by turning the steering wheel to the right at the same time (which I guess is "into the skid"), only to have the rear end fishtail the other way. At this point I corrected again, this time to the left, but the truck continued to fishtail side to side ever more violently. I believe I had my foot off the gas and the brakes the entire time this was happening. Finally, having slowed down enough, and with the car fishtailing all over the highway, I aimed for the ditch to the right, and applied the breaks just in time to slide off. Surprisingly, the air bags didn't deploy (thankfully), and there was no damage to the truck. I thew it in 4wd, got out of the snow, and continued on my way, this time driving 60.

 

My question: what is the correct course of action, exactly, when you are driving straight down the highway and the car starts to fishtail?

 

Oh, and it's a 99 Pathfinder Chilkoot, with good Bridgestone Dueler 31x10.50x15s and recently changed brakes, bushings are in good condition (no death wobble under normal circumstances).

Edited February 15, 2010 by Vla416

[kiwipete]

Depress the clutch or place into neutral if an auto. This takes the engine braking etc off the rear wheels and allows you to gain steering control of the vehicle.

[adamzan]

X2

 

And before everyone tells you to slow down or get winter tires; how long have you had your pathy? I know it took me a bit to get used to rwd in the winter. After a while you will be able to tell if the rear end is gonna try and do that to you.

[JUDGE]

X3

 

For me if there's snow on the roads it's in 4WD, especially when I'm driving on the highway.

 

Glad you made out ok.

[4X4pathy94]

if your not experienced on icy roads the best thing for you to do is what you did after going into the ditch and slow down. 4wd will help you take off faster but wont save your bacon when stopping.

 

oh and its never a good idea to go 90 on ice lol. good to hear you made it out fine.

 

when driving the slush in the middle of the road i usually will keep my foot on the gas but not accelerating, and slowly creep over holding the steering wheel tight. never pull on the steering wheel when driving through slush.

[dududuckling]

VLA416, I had the same experience too on 401 earlier this year, about 40km west of Kingston, between Kingston and Toronto. I was going at 100 km/h, 2wd, on a lightly-snow covered road. Next thing I know, I fishtailed to the right, counter-steered a couple of time, and in the end decided to aim for the middle ditch that separates east and west bound. By then, I spun 180 (now faced the opposite direction that I initially went for) and entered the ditch sideway. Got into 4wd, and drove out to Adam's, hahahaha...

 

To cut the story short, every time I see snow on the highway, no matter how thin or thick it may get, I switch to 4wd and go for 80 km/h. I'm driving with mudtires, so I get even less traction on ice. You can get away with 2wd like Adam said, but I'm not gonna take the chance. I was pretty lucky that the other vehicles were behind me and not beside me, otherwise I would have caused a major accident. I also go easy on the gas pedal and use engine brake wherever possible instead of the brake pedal (that's what they did in ice road truckers, hahaha...). If I have to go for the brake, I tapped on the brake twice to get me to a slower speed before going for a full brake. I try not to activate the ABS because it will get me sliding everywhere.

Edited February 15, 2010 by dududuckling

[Vla416]

Thanks for the replies guys. It's my second winter with the Pathy, and I'm still learning about it (it's my first vehicle that's not a FWD sedan).

 

It never occurred to me to throw it in neutral--I don't like the feeling of not having the ability to brake with the engine--but I think it would have made sense in this situation. A sobering reminder not to underestimate the conditions I guess.

 

Thanks again.

[GrimGreg]

It's a touchy thing, but if you don't know the vehicle enough, neutral is the best approach. Getting to know how your vehicle reacts in slick conditions is key to avoiding trouble.

 

If you know how to, you can actually power out of a slide, but if you over do it, you just made things twice as bad as they were to begin with, same with hitting the brakes, if done right you can effectively stop out of a slide. Hell, depending on your position slamming it in reverse is the best course of action. Like I said, it is all in knowing your vehicle.

[BowTied]

I have been driving in the snow belt of SW Ontario for over 20 years....I am gong to give a different view point here.

 

In a RWD automatic vehicle, do not shift to neutral. If your foot is off the gas and the brake, the engine braking will slow the rear wheels which naturally helps correct the vehicle fishtale. Let the laws of physics help you, slowing the rear wheels tends to straighten the vehicle trajectory. The OPPOSITE is true for for FWD, here shifting to neutral is a good idea as slowing the front drive wheels tends to exagerate the fishtale. In certain cases with FWD, apply the gas can pull you out of the fishtale.

 

OP: you did the right thing letting off the gas and not touching the brakes and counter-steering into the turn. This may have saved your bacon preventing a roll-over. What you may have experienced here is that an SUV being long and heavy will act like a pendulum moreso than a smaller, lighter car. Once the fishtale started it takes a lot more time and room to control it. I suspect you may have over-corrected your counter steer (not hard to do at that speed, in a new-to-you vehicle!). It will never be the same as highway speed, but practing some intentional fishtales and corrective steering in a parking lot can help give you a feel for the weight of the back end of your rig.

 

Yeah, snows may have helped a little, but the temp has not been that cold lately. Double check that your tires are in decent shape, same tread wear all around and at proper inflation. If there are two tires that are better than the others put them on the back.

 

HTH

[Vla416]

Thanks for the input, HTH.

 

When this happened it was around -7, and it was snow/ slush for the most part, except for that one patch which was pure shiny white ice like someone drove a Zamboni over it. You're right that I over-corrected the steering - at one point I had to swing it to full lock, and that's when I realized the situation was going to get worse before it gets better. What you say about using the engine to naturally slow the rear wheels down makes sense under ideal conditions, but I think that it might work best when there is some grip in the first place. If the rear wheels have no grip whatsoever, making them spin slower (as the engine slows down) could add to the problem by making them lose even more grip as they are unable to keep up with the road. For example, a FWD car will be able to power out of a fishtail (since in a fishtail, we already assume that it has grip at the powering front wheels), at the same time, a RWD car will not be able to slow out of a fishtail (since in a fishtail, it has no grip at the powering real wheels).

 

That's how I see it, in theory. Only one way to find out though... gonna have to find an empty parking lot.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Vla416

[nunya]

Unsure of your vechile in bad conditions and don't know your abilitys? Play in an open empty lot! Taking advantage of what you think the road is like can cause more issues than it prevents. 4wd and a slower speed to begin with would have proably helped divert the situation to begin with but it's already done and nobody got hurt so no harm no foul. Just remember as said though, all 4wd does is help you go, you stil stop the same(worse really since most people think it does and go faster since they have a sticker on their fender that sais "4x4")

[BowTied]

Thanks for the input, HTH.

 

HTH = Hope that helps

 

What you say about using the engine to naturally slow the rear wheels down makes sense under ideal conditions, but I think that it might work best when there is some grip in the first place. If the rear wheels have no grip whatsoever, making them spin slower (as the engine slows down) could add to the problem by making them lose even more grip as they are unable to keep up with the road.

 

I don't really follow that logic since ideal conditions never happen when it is slippery but if it works for you that's all that matters. IMO shifting to neutral vs leaving it in drive is not going to be, practically speaking, any difference for when the rear tires regain traction. When (hopefully) the rears do regain traction then engine braking will help. At least this is what works for me. Practice it up some and let us know what you think.

[Vla416]

LOL!

 

Yeah, I will give it a try one of these days, when it snows again. Couldn't hurt to rotate the tires as well.

 

Cheers

Edited February 17, 2010 by Vla416

[MrJim]

LOL!

 

Yeah, I will give it a try one of these days, when it snows again. Couldn't hurt to rotate the tires as well.

 

Cheers

 

 

I will throw my two cents in. When I moved to Washington in 1992, it was during a severe winter storm. I was driving through the very mountainous part of NE Oregon the roads were encased in about 3 inches in slick ice. I was driving a Ford Taurus and towing a Uhaul trailer. I grew up driving on wet clay roads of Georgia so I know how to drive on ice. As far as I am concerned, speed is the enemy on ice. It does not matter if you have four wheel drive, rear wheel drive, antilock brakes, or ? If you are going too fast, there is little you can do on ice in an emergency. I was driving in a very icy area full of curves and hills so I was only going about 25 mph as a 4wd Toyota truck flew past me with two guys inside who were laughing at us as they passed us. Well, about 10 minutes later we came around a curve and saw the two guys standing on the side of the road with a shocked look on their faces as they watched the Toyota in the middle of the road slowly turning in a circle perfectly balanced upside down on its roof. Now that is Karma in its finest moment.

 

Moral of the story is slow down on ice. Snow is one thing, ice is another.

[GrimGreg]

 

 

Moral of the story is slow down on ice. Snow is one thing, ice is another.

[Tungsten]

Unless you want to have some fun on a closed circuit...

[Mr.510]

Here's my two cents worth: The trick to a clean save on ice in a RWD that's suddenly going sideways is to make the tire speed match the road speed until you get it straightened out. Many people will get spooked when the rear starts to slide and let off the gas suddenly. This sends you fishtailing all over the place as the tires will not regain lateral traction while their speed isn't matched to the speed of the road. If anything you should let up on the throttle very gently to get the tires' speed back down to where it matches ground speed. When you're suddenly sliding on ice at speed the engine usually revs as the drive tires break traction. Gently bring the revs back down to where they were and steer yourself out of it. The most important things are don't panic and whatever you do, do it smoothly.

 

 

I grew up in a road racing family, learned from some of the best drivers in the region, and Pro Rallied for a few years. What I have to say next is very difficult advice to follow but it could save your life:

 

 

No matter what the road surface, speed, or vehicle: If you are out of control spinning, can't save it, and you're truly just along for the ride hold the steering wheel in one position and push in the clutch if it's a manual. If it's an auto just take your foot off the gas and hold the wheel in whatever spot it happens to be in. If you're on dry tarmac drag the brakes just slightly. On any other surface don't use the brake! This technique will get you the 'best spin' possible and if you leave the road it will be at a lower speed than if you were flailing with the steering wheel and/or locking up the brakes. You'll also be more aware of where you're headed which brings me to the most important advice I can give:

 

Just before you either: a.) Leave the road surface or b.) Slam into something; Pull your feet back to the front of the seat, cross your arms in an X on your chest, and grab your shirt or jacket with both hands. NEVER have your feet on the pedals or your hands on the steering wheel at the moment of impact! Do not brace for impact, this is the worst possible thing you can do. If you have the presence of mind to do it, exhale before you hit. The reason drunks walk away from horrendous wrecks is because they don't see it coming (or their reaction is slowed) and they do not tense up before impact.

[Slick]

I have been driving in the snow belt of SW Ontario for over 20 years....I am gong to give a different view point here.

 

In a RWD automatic vehicle, do not shift to neutral. If your foot is off the gas and the brake, the engine braking will slow the rear wheels which naturally helps correct the vehicle fishtale. Let the laws of physics help you, slowing the rear wheels tends to straighten the vehicle trajectory. The OPPOSITE is true for for FWD, here shifting to neutral is a good idea as slowing the front drive wheels tends to exagerate the fishtale. In certain cases with FWD, apply the gas can pull you out of the fishtale.

 

OP: you did the right thing letting off the gas and not touching the brakes and counter-steering into the turn. This may have saved your bacon preventing a roll-over. What you may have experienced here is that an SUV being long and heavy will act like a pendulum moreso than a smaller, lighter car. Once the fishtale started it takes a lot more time and room to control it. I suspect you may have over-corrected your counter steer (not hard to do at that speed, in a new-to-you vehicle!). It will never be the same as highway speed, but practing some intentional fishtales and corrective steering in a parking lot can help give you a feel for the weight of the back end of your rig.

 

Yeah, snows may have helped a little, but the temp has not been that cold lately. Double check that your tires are in decent shape, same tread wear all around and at proper inflation. If there are two tires that are better than the others put them on the back.

 

HTH

i agree with everything above, and i would also like to add that i noticed the LSD on my truck plays a part in all this too.

IMO i would never put my truck in neutral, skrew that.

When king starts to slide, i gently try to correct and steer into the slide, before my truck starts coming back, i straighten the wheel. usually king will give a slide the opposite way as he comes back, but then straightens up.

we've had a LOT of that "powder on top solid ice underneath" thing here, and it's not fun when yer doin 45 mph and hit that crap on a hill. (been there, did that few weeks ago for the first time at 50mph)

first thing to remember is NOT to panic. too many people panic, snatch the wheel, and it's all crazy from there. also, much fun as i have putt-puttin around in 2wd (i have only had my truck in 4wd on the roads once), even if you don't think conditions warrant it, put er in 4wd, where's the harm? that's why you have it, right? i just live in the middle of nowhere, so i can practice slippy sliding out here and not hit anyone or anything but the occasional power pole if it jumps out n gets me.

I also don't usually snatch my foot off the gas, i will keep my foot on the pedal, i ease off quickly but gently, ready to give him some gentle power as he comes around so i can power out of it a bit. i don't even mess with the brakes, i forget the pedal is there and i gas and pray lol.

tires play a big part too, have your good tires on back. i run the Cooper STT's, and so far, i love them, but in the icy stuff they like to do what i call the "slide n snatch".. i will slide, they will find something to hook to and WHAM! he whips back into shape.that has hurt me a couple times. fun tho lol. i tend to air down 6-7 lbs with these tires in the snow/ice, it helps immensely, i also have all my tool boxes and wheelin/recovery gear in the back for added weight in the rear.

key is to SLOW DOWN though.

go find a parking lot and have some fun.

 

this is my first winter driving a pathy in snow/ice.... i ahd my pathy's in CA.... no snow there! lols.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Slick

[nunya]

i just live in the middle of nowhere, so i can practice slippy sliding out here and not hit anyone or anything but the occasional power pole if it jumps out n gets me.

 

 

When phone poles attack! Be careful out there Slick, they are getting braver!

[Slick]

it's ok Nunya....... king bounces that, and teh poles are set off the road a good distance, i would have to mega wipe to hit one