Here we go again...

[navygz19]

Seems OPEC just can't figure out what it is it's looking to do with the world oil market...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/e...ly_x.htm?csp=24

 

I'm getting tired of this. Time to invest in E85 production.

[vengeful]

Time to disband OPEC. OPEC is a cartel. They are no better than the Drug Cartels. All they are after is maximum profit. They would halt all production to drive the price through the roof if it wouldn't hurt them so badly!

 

E85 is not an immediate answer. Less than 30% of vehicles on the road can accept E85. E85 will become a more viable option when all vehicles are produced as FFVs instead of having that as an option, or not at all. The only downside to E85 is it contains much less energy than Gasoline, so vehicles run much less efficiently.

 

The short-term answer is simple. Drill ANWR. That would effectively cease the U.S. dependence on foriegn oil, and it would basically destroy any shred of power that OPEC thinks they have.

 

We also have tons of land in places like South Dakota, Montana and Kansas that isn't being used. We can build more refineries there and send our production capacity through the roof. In fact, if we did that, we would be able to EXPORT oil, and still have larger reserves and supplies than we had before. Our Deficit would decrease, our economy would boom, and the price of Gas in the US would be drastically decreased in the long-term. Short-term pricing would increase to pay for the new refineries and drilling equipment, but that's something I'm willing to deal with.

 

Also, if we were able to Export oil, the Fed Tax on gasoline could be cut, or abolished all-together to reduce the cost of gas even more!

 

Just my $0.03 (the price of oil has increased, thus increasing my cost of living, so I need to make a little more money on my opinions, lol.)

[navygz19]

 

The short-term answer is simple. Drill ANWR.

I agree with 95% of what you just said, but how do you support your reasoning that drilling the ANWR is a short term solution?

[vengeful]

By 'Short-term,' I mean over the next 15-20 years or so. At that point, FFVs will be ubiquitous enough to justify supplying E85 in quantities rivaling today's production of Gasoline. Also, starting between now and 2010, Auto manufacturers are going to need to start making all vehicles as FFVs. However, as long as there are classic and non-FFV vehicles (including diesel trucks, busses, motorcycles, cars, etc) on the road, there will always be a demand for standard gasoline.

 

I still think the absolute best option is hybrid technology mixed with other "alternative" fuel sources. Hydrogen-Electric hybrids, Diesel-Electric hybrids, etc. And hey, once you get into a Diesel-Electric hybrid, you can have a Biodiesel-Electric Hybrid, and be able to go 100+ miles for less than a dollars worth of used cooking oil!

 

Honda is going to be releasing Diesel vehicles in the coming years, and I would love to see them combine their CDI Diesel technology with their Hybrid technology. Honda and Toyota have always been on the forefront of automotive innovation, but Toyota seems to be very stuck on their philosophy that Gas-Electric hybrids are perfect in every sense and they are the "only" way to go about conserving fuel, even though, in real world studies, their hybrids don't get that much better economy than the regular gas cars. Whether that's due to the added weight of the Hybrid Synergy Drive system, imperfections in a still new technology, or what, I'm not entirely sure, but at this point, a G-E Hybrid is not a perfect science, as a Turbodiesel or standard gas engine is.

 

The biggest problem I see with increasing E85 production is the pricing of everything else will drastically increase because the cost of corn will have increased due to the increased demand. Corn is also a much more fragile resource than oil. A thunderstorm or tornado can destroy an entire crop of corn and drive corn prices through the roof. Let's not forget that an increase in the price of corn will increase the price of everything that depends on corn - beef, pork, chicken, various other produces, milk, eggs bread, nearly every grocery available, as well as Ethanol. I think that E85 is a good viable Substitute for gasoline, but it will never be able to replace it because it is way too fragile of a commodity.

[FLApathy]

Dont forget that beer will aslo go up in price, since thats what E85 is, it has 15% gas to stop ppl from drinking it.

 

 

And think I said something about this in the POHO, do something about gas here and it will screw companys like OPEC who have been screwing us.

Edited October 5, 2006 by FLApathy

[vengeful]

Dont forget that beer will aslo go up in price, since thats what E85 is, it has 15% gas to stop ppl from drinking it.

Do you even know what you're talking about Justin?

 

Beer, or any other drinking alcohol, has NO ethanol added to it. NONE. Beer is made by fermenting Hops with yeast bacteria. Liquor (like vodka, grain alcohol, whiskey, etc) is distilled to create the alcohol content.

 

Ethanol is not used in anything for human consumption. Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl or ethyl (which is similar to Ethanol, but not the same).

[FLApathy]

Do you even know what you're talking about Justin? 

 

Not really.

 

The meal is placed into tanks where it is mixed with water. This mixture, now called mash, passes through steamers that help break apart the starch molecules and enters the liquefaction process, where enzymes -- proteins that help break down the mash -- are introduced to begin fermentation.

 

During fermentation, yeast is added to the mash to convert the sugars into carbon dioxide(which is often collected, compressed, and sold for use in other industries) and a product called beer, which consists of 12-15 percent ethanol.

 

The beer then enters the distillation process, where it will pass through a series of towers heated to 170 degrees to help purify the mixture, making it 190 proof (meaning that it is 95 percent ethanol), leaving only water and distiller’s grain as bi-products. The grain is sold as feed for livestock. The ethanol factory reuses the water.

 

The ethanol then enters what is called molecular sieves, which resemble BB pellets with holes in the middle, allowing the ethanol molecules to squeeze in, keeping water out. The result is 100% ethanol.

 

Finally, the ethanol that will be used for fuel must be denatured, or made unfit for human consumption, by adding a small amount of gasoline. The denatured ethanol is then transported to a fuel factory where it is blended with gasoline to create the fuel needed for your vehicle.

 

And according to Wikipedia

An alcoholic beverage is a drink containing ethanol.

Edited October 5, 2006 by FLApathy

[mws]

Do you even know what you're talking about Justin?

 

Beer, or any other drinking alcohol, has NO ethanol added to it. NONE. Beer is made by fermenting Hops with yeast bacteria. Liquor (like vodka, grain alcohol, whiskey, etc) is distilled to create the alcohol content.

 

Ethanol is not used in anything for human consumption. Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl or ethyl (which is similar to Ethanol, but not the same).

Ooops.... Made by fermenting BARLEY with yeast (and rice if making really bad beer....)

The hops are added to add bitterness and flavor, usually after fermentation.

 

And the "beer" referenced in the article posted by FLApathy is not the pleasantly entertaining barley pop we enjoy. In fact, that "beer" would not be appreciated by anyone with halfway functional taste buds....

 

 

 

And with regards to ethanol, the last significant challenge is coming up with a process that yields more energy potential than it consumes. Ethanol as fuel is working in Brazil as they use sugar cane instead of corn (considerably less energy required to convert to ethanol) and have lower consumption of electricity per capita combined with nuclear generation so they have a much less expensive source of energy.

 

Last time I checked, using petroleum fired electricity plants (as the vast majority of powerplants in the corn belt are...) to convert corn to ethanol is a losing proposition - it was taking something like 105 gallons of petroleum to generate 100 gallons of ethanol when you factored in production of corn, transportation, and conversion ....

 

Progress is being made (Bush has gone on record as wanting to build many more nuclear plants, as long as they're not in HIS backyard!!) but we are still years away.

[FLApathy]

And the "beer" referenced in the article posted by FLApathy is not the pleasantly entertaining barley pop we enjoy.  In fact, that "beer" would not be appreciated by anyone with halfway functional taste buds....

 

 

 

Yes but some ppl will goto extremes. Under agers could siphon it out of there tanks at partys and add coke to it or something, lol, then you would have to be 21 to drive and buy gas, and have the key to gas door on their parents cars.

Edited October 5, 2006 by FLApathy

[87pathy]

i read an article (from popular science) not to long ago, and it stated that ethanol from organic products is not a viable solution. to support a purely ethonal economy 70% of our farm land would have to be designated to the production of ethanol.. Thus requiring the US to import food.

[RedPath88]

Progress is being made (Bush has gone on record as wanting to build many more nuclear plants, as long as they're not in HIS backyard!!) but we are still years away.

I have never been the "nuclear paranoid" as many are. 40-50min from here is the Satsop Power Plants (2), I used to live 15-20min from them and I have been a long supporter of finishing the damned things and firing them up.

 

If I remember correctly one of them was 90% finished and the other was around 70 or 80% completed when the project was shut down pssd

 

 

And for the record, Yes I have read into the Chernobyl incident... for those that remember I posted about the anniversary of the disaster.... still I support it.

[94extreme]

drill, drill, drill,, hemi, hemi, hemi... only in america hahahaha.. yes, i am going mad.. hahahaha.. i think i may have to go for a long drive... help the economy some, you know.. i am afterall with "us"...

 

 

 

power, power, power...

[Mr. Pickles]

The short-term answer is simple. Drill ANWR. That would effectively cease the U.S. dependence on foriegn oil, and it would basically destroy any shred of power that OPEC thinks they have.

 

We also have tons of land in places like South Dakota, Montana and Kansas that isn't being used. We can build more refineries there and send our production capacity through the roof. In fact, if we did that, we would be able to EXPORT oil, and still have larger reserves and supplies than we had before. Our Deficit would decrease, our economy would boom, and the price of Gas in the US would be drastically decreased in the long-term. Short-term pricing would increase to pay for the new refineries and drilling equipment, but that's something I'm willing to deal with.

LOL HAHAHAHA

 

I suppose while we're at it, we'll just go ahead and level Yellowstone to make a distribution center, cause hey, nobody is gonna miss it... Hell, while you're at it, there's this sweet spot in AZ that would make a killer storage facility. Man, they already have holes dug in the groun!. I think they call it the Grand Canyon...

 

Gotta love the solution of the old generatrion: drill, drill, DRILLLLLL! Hello, this oil isn't gonna be around forever. Why must you insist on tapping it until the well is dry, our backs are against the wall, and the sh!t hits the fan? Why misdirect efforts toward a stick-your-head-in-the-sand band aid approach, throwing money at the problem by just moving on and drilling for more, and hoping the problem will disappear or be spent away, all at the expense of the environment and future generations? Efforts and money could be spent much more effectively toward a long term real solution to the problem, be it alternative fuel, fuel cells, electric/solar, etc. etc. No, these vehicles are not ready nor are they practical at the moment, and they will continue on that path until a REAL effort is made otherwise on their behalf. Petroleum fuel is NOT sustainable in the long haul, end of sentence. There is no arguement that it can be sustained eternally, period. No light at the end of the tunnel, no magic pill. Only through hard work and innovation will a solution be reached, and that solution is not to simply go look for more. The powers that be in government, however, refuse to acknowledge this and would rather put on the blinders. Nice.

 

In the meantime, it will be a me and a lot of others, who will have the joy of explaining this mess to our grandchildren...

 

[88pathoffroad]

Corn isn't the only plant that can be used to produce fuel. There is a type of grass that can outproduce corn by something like 800% in both end-product yield and coverage per acre of land used. That info comes from a History Channel show on the same subject.

[k9sar]

and don't forget about beans

[FLApathy]

Corn isn't the only plant that can be used to produce fuel. There is a type of grass that can outproduce corn by something like 800% in both end-product yield and coverage per acre of land used. That info comes from a History Channel show on the same subject.

Anything thats a plant can pretty much be used, the weeds you pull up out of your yard, or the grass clipings stuck to your lawn mower. And Mr.P, I agree with Dan that right now we need to find more oil, we need to make sure we are set right now, and then when once we're good then we need to do what you said, invest in the future thing.

[Harbinger]

I saw an article awhile back (online somewhere, can't remember the source) about a possible bio-fuel alternative involving animal refuse from processing plants?

 

Anyone else heard of this?

[FLApathy]

Something where they take garbage and use the methane it gives off.

[Harbinger]

Not exactly, what I read was some sort of processing that would be done to all the left over parts of cows/chickens/turkeys. It could be involving methane but I don't specifically remember that.

[mws]

Yeah! The heck with bio-fuel, I want gonad-fuel!

[vengeful]

and don't forget about beans

I first read that as

 

and don't forget about bears

[Mr. Pickles]

Anything thats a plant can pretty much be used, the weeds you pull up out of your yard, or the grass clipings stuck to your lawn mower. And Mr.P, I agree with Dan that right now we need to find more oil, we need to make sure we are set right now, and then when once we're good then we need to do what you said, invest in the future thing.

Helloooo, we'll never be "set." The assembly lines for Suburbans and H2's will just crank back up to full capacity.

[Mr. Pickles]

Yeah! The heck with bio-fuel, I want gonad-fuel!

I'd go for bio-diesel from fryer grease. *mmmm... driving around smelling like french fries*

[navygz19]

I'd go for bio-diesel from fryer grease.  *mmmm... driving around smelling like french fries*

I've seen postings on the local Craigslist here in the wanted section for used fryer oil!

 

When I worked at the deli and we cleaned out the fryer, I had to take all the used grease to the back of the store and dump it in a huge *designated* dumpster...got me thinking!

Who woulda ever known??

Edited October 6, 2006 by navygz19

[vengeful]

Most restaurants have to PAY to have that stuff disposed of, too. You could just give it to people who want it for their cars and save a little money.