DoctorBill Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I put the TB back on, took out plug #1 and the piston was at the top. Are those pistons flat on top or compound curved? Felt like it was sloped when I pushed a stick down in there. Now that I've put the Timing Belt on a couple of times, it seems like no big deal ! Tomorrow I will put the Radiator back on and fill it. If it still leaks, the only other option I want to partake of is to drive it into the shop and let them do the Oil Pump for $750. I decided to go for it.... I'm into this BEAST for too much dineros. If the Coolant is hooked up, then all I'll do is put on the WP-Alt and PS Belts so I can drive it into town. Don't need AC at the moment. The rest of it - screw it. It will make it into town w/o the shroud and all that stuff. I can then drive it home and finish the details when the shop is done with the Oil Pump. If it works (I pray), then I can drain a portion of the Coolant with the new plastic tube I put on the drain Tap and drain enough to get the top hose off and finish the Shroud. The Hole below the Radiator drain tap didn't line up with the tap barb, so I drilled it out toward the front so a tube could go thru that metal support down thru to underneath. Now no more coolant all over everything ! Tomorrow about 10 AM I will start it up and drive it around as before for 15 minutes and park it and put a piece of cardboard under the front to look for oil dripping like it did before. I can also examine the Oil Pump area. Man I am tired. This is too much for an old fart like me. Didn't expect all this to happen. Also, I'm going to have the Oil Changed at minute lube - let them handle that idiotic Oil Filter bullcrap ! Has anyone ever fashioned a sheet metal thing-a-mabob to sort of funnel the Oil Filter dribblings away from everything below it ? What a dumb setup.... DoctorBill Edited August 22, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I think there are oil filter relocation kits you can get so you can have the filter in a much easier location to change, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Oh, Doc, I just recently changed the oil pan in my '95 and it isn't an overwhelming job...the only tricky part about the whole project is getting the front diff in and out of the truck. It is a feat that would require an extra set of hands getting the front diff in place. I did it by myself, but wished I had an extra set of hands. If you decide to do it, let me know...I can help (in the forum of course!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 Got the WP-Alt Belt on and the PS Pump Belt. Put the Coolant hoses back on the Radiator and filled it. Checked all the Bolts for tightness and started it up. Runs fine. Exhaust manifold clicking nicely - thank you very much ! After about 15 minutes..... I cannot see any oil coming out of the Oil Pump gasket. Maybe the Spray n' Seal did it's job. Neither Camshaft Seal is leaking. If the Oil Pan were leaking, it wouldn't drip off that front pointed section right under the Crankshaft. The leak is slow but steady and stops fairly soon after the engine is stopped. At this point, I will remove the Belts again and replace the Lower front Crankshaft Seal just for the Hell of it...I have two replacements ! Putting the TB and other belts on and off is becoming second nature to me now...easy ! If a Seal change doesn't work, then off to a shop and let someone who is competent do the work. I have no idea where the oil is coming from, if not that front crankshaft seal. No MaGregor, I would not attemt the Oil Pan. Too much for an old Fart like me ! DoctorBill PS - Strange thing happened. Checked the Oil Level before I started the engine - ½ quart low. No sweat. Started engine - ran it several minutes - killed it to check everything. The dip stick showed NO OIL on it ! S**t my pants ! Added a quart of oil. Ran the engine for a minute. Dip stick showed oil about 1-2 mm over the full mark... WTF happened ? Is this machine possessed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 You have to wait a bit before checking the oil after shutting it off. I thought I was 1/2 a quart low but then I waited 5 minutes and it was full again. And if the crankshaft seal is the culprit, I guess you can go back to thinking you screwed the pooch eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) Adamzan "And if the crankshaft seal is the culprit, I guess you can go back to thinking you screwed the pooch eh?" Well, we will see what we will see.... If replacing the FC Oil Seal does the trick - yes, I screwed the pooch. If not, then I am good for another Timing Belt....and am vindicated. Which will it be ? How about a vote....will I win like Obama or go down in defeet like McCain ? Here is what the front end looks like after taking the Belts off. I am going to endeavor to perservere and endeavor to quit trying to "logic" this thing out. I have no clue as to what is going on - I am JAFO... When I get some shade, I am going to rip the Oil seal out and use that plastic sheet trick to insert a new one. Let me rephrase that - attempt to insert a new one. DoctorBill PS - I wonder how many repair shops have problems like this that you don't hear about - have to go back and redo it. You wouldn't know 'cause they wouldn't tell you... One is always hardest on one's self...unless one is an unmitigated egotist and is ALWAYS right and perfect (like my boss was). Edited August 22, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackspawn Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Hell, try (the talcum powder and look for leaks trick) again! From what I see I'm going to say front seal/, but it looked dry the last time. The plot thickens.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) I saw something in one of your pics doc...maybe this is where the coolant is coming from? If you look at the pic that has the bottom edge of the water pump in it (second pic), it seeems wet along there...see if you can squeeze down there and look at the bottom edge of the waterpump... Edited August 22, 2009 by magregor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 (edited) If you look at the pic that has the bottom edge of the water pump in it (second pic), it seeems wet along there...see if you can squeeze down there and look at the bottom edge of the waterpump... When you are putting on the Hoses and adding Coolant, it seems to get everywhere and on everything ! One problem with doing this is that any oil or coolant naturally falls to the bottom where the TB Sprocket (and the TB itself) is spinning right there where the liquid goes. This makes for a mess and it is hard to tell what is actually happening and where. This thread is becoming much too long - much more than I intended. I should start a new one perhaps Titled "An Amateur Attempting to Fix an Oil Leak Up Front". Oh well, by tomorrow, I should know (or not....). I might have to pay some shop mechanic to find out. DoctorBill Edited August 22, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I think that even though the thread is long, that may mean that there is a lot of interest in how to troubleshoot issues as they come...I think you are doing a fantastic job and I think I can speak for all who have viewed/replied to this thread...I enjoy monitoring your progress/regress all through this project! Keep it up Doc! Is all I have to say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackspawn Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I think that even though the thread is long, that may mean that there is a lot of interest in how to troubleshoot issues as they come...I think you are doing a fantastic job and I think I can speak for all who have viewed/replied to this thread...I enjoy monitoring your progress/regress all through this project! Keep it up Doc! Is all I have to say! I second that DOC, please don't give up!! You've help me out more than you know and I haven't even started yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) I hope this thread is useful to someone...Been feeling like everything I touch turns to crap lately. Took the Front Crankshaft Oil Seal out. Came out with difficulty - had to use a seal puller that looks like a medieval axe weapon. I showed a picture of it somewhere back - seems ages ago... The front Oil Seal - the internal spring was where it should have been. You have to essentially destroy them to get them out ! Several views of the Crankshaft. What is the Brass Ring in there for ? Why is that darker ring just inside the Brass Ring not perfectly round ? These close-ups are hard to get right - the camera wants to focus on the end of the Crankshaft. I am not sure the Oil seal was leaking. (?) I will fashion some plastic tube thingie as described before to install the next one. Has anyone had an oil leak problem like this before ? DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I am just checking the manual to see what the brass ring is for Doc...stand by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I checked both manuals and can't find anything about the brass ring behind the seal...I think it is there just for a backing and smooth surface for the seal to but against??? Scratching head... Anyone else have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I'll see if I can find something in the FSM later, it's on a different computer... Yeah, that doesn't look right DrBill. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) I photographed the Nissan FC Oil Seal I took out just now alongside the new Beck/Arnley FC Oil Seal that I will install soon. Front and Back - I have no idea which is front or back sides... The Nissan Oil Seal is not sealed on both sides of the metal washer as the B/A Oil Seal is - Yellow Arrows. Notice the difference in the outer wall thickness. ...and FYI - the FSM Oil Pump Schematics - Page LC -4. I did a screen capture with my Hewlet-Packard "Screen Capture" program. BTW - there are many Freeware Screen Capture programs available ! NONAGS Freeware Progams Freeware Home - Collection of Free Software "Only Freeware" SimTel.Net Freeware I can't tell doodlie from those schematics. DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 I checked the Nissan FSM and the Haynes manual, but couldn't find anything either...even combed Google Images as well...The "front" of the seal is the opposite side of the seal that has the spring or open end. that is the side that you don't want exposed to the elements. The only thing I can think of is that the brass or copper ring behind the seal is the only "barrier" between the seal and the oil pump gear. It could also be a shim to adjust the end play in the oil pump gear as well. I wouldn't worry about it, unless you want to pull the pump off to inspect it. BUT, that would involve taking out the oil pan, which you had clearly stated that you wouldn't do yourself...I would suggest to put in the new seal carefully with the method I suggested and give it one last try....I have faith that installing the new seal in with the plastic barrier to get it over the lip (put a skim of grease on the seal surface to help it slide on easy) will solve the leak. In the FSM, it also suggested using a big flat washer and a deep socket that would fit over the crankshaft and tap the seal in that way. It will slide in square and flush using that method as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Could it be a brass bushing? I've seen the outer part before on other machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magregor Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Could it be a brass bushing? I've seen the outer part before on other machines. It could be the brass bushing for the oil pump gear...good call Adam...Makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 So I got it right - Front vs Back ? Does the Crankshaft spin that "Inner Gear" making the off center "Outer Gear" rotate and, by centrifugal action, push the oil out like a centrifugal pump does ? I have a difficult time translating diagrams into visual movement. I saw a Cutaway Differential at a "Pull-n-Save" here in Spokane that finally made clear to me how a differential works. Anyway - I will install the New B/A Oil Seal tomorrow after I play around with a plastic sheet that I have to come up with somehow. Have to look thru my box of Odds n Ends where I save all sorts of crap for a day like this. My daughter makes fun of me for keeping all the odd stuff I have in boxes all over the place. My "treasures" as I call them.... Do you guys have many bottles of Screws, Bolts, Washers, Nuts, boxes of wire, hunks of metal Pipe, sheets, formed stuff, etc ? Odd Pieces of wood, old tools, electrical stuff, empty bottle and cans that might be good for cleaning or storage ? I have a veritable "Junk Yard" of crap - I even buy buckets of "odds & ends" at garage sales... I am a pack rat ! An obsessive compulsive gatherer...I can barely get thru my Garage - it is stuffed. And...I know where everything is, too ! Maybe my true calling would be to run a junkyard...Heaven ! DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 You know the minute you throw something out you'll need it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Does the Crankshaft spin that "Inner Gear" making the off center "Outer Gear" rotate and,by centrifugal action, push the oil out like a centrifugal pump does ? No. It's a gear-tupe pump, not a centrifugal. Look here and see how "Gerotor Pump" works. Anyway - I will install the New B/A Oil Seal tomorrow Before you install new seal: check crankshaft neck for any traces of a wear (small groove under the lip of old seal). If groove exists, new original oil seal will leak too. Example photo: grooved camshaft (look to end of a neck, near a conical part of camshaft) To effectively fight with it, aftermarket spare part manufacturers produced special "repair" seals. The only difference of these seals is lip placed with "offset" (displacement) relatively to original (so this lip sits at different place of a neck, non-grooved). All other dimensions are the same as original. I can't find the better picture to illustrate these words, but the main point is clearly illustrated here (text comments at a picture are on Russian, don't worry about it): This picture shows standard oil seal installation with displacement. "Repair" seals displacement provided by their construction. Good example of "repair seals" are AJUSA 15011700 (Front Main Seal) and AJUSA 15037500 (Rear Main Seal). I had to install both (there are visible grooves on my crankshaft necks, approximately 0.05-0.1 mm in depth) - and these seals are absolutely dry now, no leak at all... Edited August 23, 2009 by Terrano1992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) Holy Makeral, Terrano1992, I had no idea about the grooved shaft business ! How and why do those grooves form ? That seems odd given that the Oil Seal is rubber. I will attempt to look ASAP. Rather hard to get one's head in there and my eyes are bad... The grooves would be well inside that oil seal slot - rather difficult to see no doubt. What is a good method to see those grooves given that tight space ? So - I wonder if those modified types of Oil Seals you mentioned are sold in America ? Maybe one of our highly intelligent, worldly wise and kindly readers can inform us about such "Repair Oil Seals" sold here in the USA. (?) Given our propensity to spend money hand over fist, I suspect you'd be told, "Your engine is unrepairable - totaled - send it to the junk yard !" Then again - on the other hand...given all the Hydraulic Machinery that is used in America, there must be some common "repair oil seals" sold somewhere.....this problem can't be all that uncommon. Comments, guys ? Thanks for the information on the geared oil pump, also. I did not know about that...so they can also be a hydraulic motor ! I guess that that is how "Bobcats" run - I rented a Bobcat twice - they work well ! A GEARED Hydraulic pump run by the Gasoline Engine and a Geared Hydraulic Motor turning the wheels. Reverse the fluid flow to reverse the Hydaulic Motors on the wheels. The nominal oil pressure that a Nissan V6 oil pump should make at 2,000 rpm is 53 - 65 psi. Chilton Manual page 3-6 bottom chart. That miserable little rubber Front Oil Seal can't possibly be holding back 50 psi of Oil Pressure ! But it would get quite hot and become even more flexible. Thanks Terano1992 - you know quite a lot about automobiles ! DoctorBill Edited August 23, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 How and why do those grooves form ?[/b][/color] That seems odd given that the Oil Seal is rubber. Dirty oil contains abrasive particles... Also, do you remember that you can polish old copper (i.e. mechanically remove oxide layer from surface) with a clean soft cloth or felt? The grooves would be well inside that oil seal slot - rather difficult to see no doubt. Take a piece of thin steel wire, bend one end to "L" form and use it as a feeler. So - I wonder if those modified types of Oil Seals you mentioned are sold in America ? I think yes, but i don' know specific names and numbers for US market... AJUSA and Victor Reinz are European manufacturers. It's possible that Payen (Federal Mogul) NJ280 (47x33x8 mm) or NJ368 (47x33x7 mm) are "repair-type" seals, but i can't verify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted August 23, 2009 Author Share Posted August 23, 2009 Been doing some "Googling" trying to find "Repair Oil Seals" - all I get is "Repair: Oil Seals"...merde. I did find a link to BARS products which claims to "Seal Oil Leaks" on rear main seals... Barsproducts oil seal leak stopper Ever tried that stuff ? ...one of those magical "chemical products" one finds on Automotive store shelves that can fix any problem one might have. Like the old "Elixers" that peddlers sold on the road to heal ANY problem. Now they are sold on TV - Natural Male Enhancement Has anyone reading this tried that product ? If so, why ? They must sell one Hell of a lot of it - otherwise there wouldn't be so many of those ads on TV ! Apparently the FDA tried to stop them, but they just changed the Ad slightly... Enzyte's history Just "FYI" DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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