Big 3 Bailout

[Kingman]

Just wondering what everyone's opinions and thoughts are so far about bailing out the Big 3?

[GrimGreg]

Our government listedn to too much Dire Straights in the 80s.....Money for nothin

[zonianbrat]

X2 If we bail them out nothing will change and they will be asking for money again in a couple/few years. I say let them file bankruptcy. It's not like they will go under. They will be forced to restructure their whole operations. I think it is what they need. Make those CEO's earn the millions of dollars they are making. What pisses me off is the last CEO to leave Chrysler was given 200 million dollars TO LEAVE! WTF? If you do a good job then yeah your entitled to a bonus (not 200 million) but this guy (I cant remember his name) failed and was asked to leave but given 200 million to do so. I'm no expert but does anybody else see the problem with this kind of thing? Even Donald Trump was like WTF? Why does he get 200 million dollars to leave with.

[Precise1]

Yep!! Pure crap. Since when does a failing business deserve a hand out? Especially when they have been failing for a long time in quality and innovation. Screw them, I say!!

 

It's like the 20's and 30', there were many car companies. They competed for sales, but advancements, quality, price and reliability is what defined the winner. Today's american auto corps (that bought out most of their competitors over the years) are fat, lazy, sheity, demanding, bloated, inefficient pigs. Let them crash!!

 

"In nature, a vacuum is abhorred". Car companies will fill the void faster than you spit, especially with some government backing. Companies that will take a real look a hydrogen burning motors, electric alternatives, etc. We could be in the forefront again, rather than a pathetic second choice...

 

I say let them fill hole hole they dug.

 

B

[Dowser]

Let em Burn.

 

Maybe then we'll finally get some reasonable aftermarket support.

[tekazgtr1984]

Just a joke... They are in trouble for obvious reasons. A complete and utter lack of business skills and corruption that knows no bounds... Let 'em suffer I say. And besides, this all about a competitive market anyway. It's sink or swim.

I think t's ironic how back in the 80's The Big 3 cried and cried about foreign automakers overtaking car sales in the United States, yet they refused to do anything to improve their products while squandering the domestic support they received and putting sanctions on foreign companies. Now, 20 years later they expect the same domestic help because their complacency and total lack of vision has been their decay and consequent downfall.

These companies have made their beds. Now it's time for them to tuck in and enjoy the nap. Unfortunately, I have family and friends who are employed by these companies and, as such, I feel for these individuals because they've done their job to fulfill their duty to the industry. It's the CEO's and corporate asshats who are responsible.

Sorry for ranting...

[k9sar]

the bailout for the loan companies was to help americans not lose their homes/jobs/etc due to the F-UP of financial firms. The 'bailout' of the auto makers is based on pure greed. I believe they saw an opportunity to get free money and jumped at it. All this talk about needing it to 'restructure' etc is BS.

[BoneZ]

the bailout for the loan companies was to help americans not lose their homes/jobs/etc due to the F-UP of financial firms. The 'bailout' of the auto makers is based on pure greed. I believe they saw an opportunity to get free money and jumped at it. All this talk about needing it to 'restructure' etc is BS.

 

What allot of people are not realizing is if the car company's go under it will be a chain reaction. I know if GM goes out of business I will be without a job, ( i work for a company that dose marine and industrial engine builds) It will not only be the car company's, company's such as delphi, bosh, allot of lift truck company's will be out of business, that is to just name a few, There are 1000's of company's in the united states that if the big 3 go under will sink with them. Just thought i would give my 2 cents.

[Precise1]

Good point, but isn't it more realistic to say that things would change, rather than crash?

 

I know if GM goes out of business I will be without a job, ( i work for a company that dose marine and industrial engine builds)

Do you mean that with out GM, marine and industrial engine building will cease or rather that you will cease building them out of GM motors and use something else?

No one will continue to make GM motors even though the vehicles are no longer made? No one will step in and fill the void?

 

B

[RedPath88]

Obviously some voids will be filled, but no not all of them. And it will not happen in time to save the jobs and general livelihood of thousands of Americans... and Canadians... and anyone esle who works for or otherwise supplies the them. People are only talking about the effect on the US, but as I understand it this could effect the "Americas's" as a whole. All three have operations in North America (Canada included) and Central America... not sure of what extent they have in South America.

 

Try to understand that Ford and GM are both more than "just" auto makers. Chrysler and been bought and sold so many times that I just don't know what's still there

 

Now don't get me wrong, I don't fully support this bail-out, but I also do not believe that letting them fail is in the best interest of the country (all countries involved).

[BoneZ]

Good point, but isn't it more realistic to say that things would change, rather than crash?

Do you mean that with out GM, marine and industrial engine building will cease or rather that you will cease building them out of GM motors and use something else?

No one will continue to make GM motors even though the vehicles are no longer made? No one will step in and fill the void?

 

B

 

 

There will still be marine and industrial engines being built if they go under it will just be stuff from other country's not supporting all of are people that will be out of work, And so you know GM engines are used in the majority of industrial equipment, I mean even some toyota forklifts have gm engines in them. The marine world would not care if ford went under as There is no one trying to make fords work for marine applications anymore. The last company that was

doing that was redline marine but they went under already. And for the people saying that the American car company's have not been moving forward in tech are all wrong, I mean comparing the engines from 6 years ago to now we produce 2 times the power with less gas and have better emitions. Two of the most prestigious awards in the industry are the Motor Trend Car and Truck of the Year, as well as the North American Car and Truck of the Year. These awards are given by those that study the cars/trucks for a living - they are unbiased. The awards are based on design, technology innovation, ride, handing, safety, performance and value. As the 2009 awards have not all been made. You'll note that GM received 5 of the top 8 positions. There's a lot of competition out there - and most of them are very good.

[Kingman]

Here's my 2 cents. Remember TARP? That big ass $700B bailout from congress to treasury? Lets look at some facts.

 

1)That came with NO stipulations, and was passed within 2 days

2)$350B has already been spend, being directly put into Citi Bank, AIG, and other peivage morgage companies

-AIG has just given it's top 90? workers, making between $92,000-$3,000,000 a bonus between $150,000-$1,000,000 to "stay with he company." That is complete wasting of our taxpaying dollars.

-Those bad morgages that were supposed to be bought up so far, have not happened yet. 500,000 jobs have been lost in November alone, making our national unemployement rate about 9%. That's HUGE

3)The economy is still going downhill, which is what the $700B, if spend wisely, is supposed to help solve and stabilize. None of this has happened yet, because of irrational spending and corruption

 

Now look at the Big 3 Bailout, which fell through last night

 

1)EXTENSIVE stipulations

2)The fail of the American Auto Industry will kill off 1.5-3 million jobs. GM has roughly 4800 small American suppliers of parts in the US alone, with a large part of that number having 50% in GM. Meaning, from the ENTIRE factory output, 50% of that heads to GM. Dealers, mechanics, detail services will all be devestated by this. that's just in America, take it to a greater scale and apply it to world suppliers and renamed GM vehicles. The entire global economy will halt, we'll go into a depression. If person A loses his job, he no longer spends money. Person B who supplies what person A buys, will soon lose his job because person A can no longer afford to buy. The supplier for person B, person C will soon lose his job because of person A and B not being able to buy/sell. There is also all the smaller companies who use American made products, U-Haul, John Deer, International school busses, etc etc etc. They will feel this as well, no support for their vehicles and products they employ. If this causes those companies to fail, there goes even more jobs.

3)Southern senators are what killed this deal. The representatives for the states who Toyota and Nissan occupies. They want these FOREIGN companies to survive, doing extensive damage to the American economy. They are the ones who wanted the UAW (United Auto Workers union) to cut wages for Big 3 employees, to make them in line with the foreign, non-union companies. the UAW refused.

4)$14B is MEASLY compared to $700B

5)Good news, Bush will likely take the money from TARP and lend it to the Big 3 under the same stipulations Congress has already set forth.

 

These senetors seem to have blinders on, only focusing on their state's best interests. Where is the unity that is America, fighting for the COMMON GOOD OF THE PEOPLE? There is a much bigger picture here, people. Yes, the Big 3, particularly GM and Chrysler have slipped drastically, and spent their money greedily and irrationally. This would be their chance to restructure and provide better vehicles to the American people, and other countries. Congress and big corporations are run by greed. Simple greed. It's so disheartening to know that Congress would let something like this fall through, simply becuase of a few small words, and failing to look at the big picture. We're already on a very thin line now with the economy. Why the HELL would they let it worsen by choosing to not help? If Bush cannot, or does not (unlikely) step in and give the Big 3 the money, their collapse will likely send everything into a downward spiral, likely that we cannot recover for a long, long time. GM, Chrysler, and Ford have all made mistakes in the past, with their management and CEOs. Ford has been restructuring for a few years now, selling off Land Rover, Jaguar, and attempting to sell Volvo. GM DOES need to shrink, A LOT. Chevrolet, Hummer, Opel, Saturn, Cadillac, GMC, Buick, Vauxhaal, Pontiac, that's just too many. Chevrolet is/was? supposed to come out with the Volt, a revolutionary vehicle that could drastically change the auto industry. Sadly, it's all a little too late.

 

Take your binders off. Look at the bigger picture, morality of the situation, and the best interest of the American people and the global economy. If you are a non-American who does not give a hoot about America, watch out. this will most likely affect your economy and country as well.

Edited December 12, 2008 by kingman92010

[k9sar]

What allot of people are not realizing is if the car company's go under it will be a chain reaction. I know if GM goes out of business I will be without a job, ( i work for a company that dose marine and industrial engine builds) It will not only be the car company's, company's such as delphi, bosh, allot of lift truck company's will be out of business, that is to just name a few, There are 1000's of company's in the united states that if the big 3 go under will sink with them. Just thought i would give my 2 cents.

 

In my opinion (since I probably don't know all the specifics), the money sought by the auto makers is not to SAVE the company, it's to DO MORE like restructure and new development of technology. I firmly believe that the companies are not in danger of folding if they did not get this handout.

[Kingman]

In my opinion (since I probably don't know all the specifics), the money sought by the auto makers is not to SAVE the company, it's to DO MORE like restructure and new development of technology. I firmly believe that the companies are not in danger of folding if they did not get this handout.

 

GM and Chrysler have both said that without help, they WILL run out of cash within weeks. If that's not folding, then what would you call it?

[GrimGreg]

You can blame the greedy Unions for them tanking just as much as the greedy ones in the corner offices.

 

I say let them die, get bought out, and restart production without UAW.

[k9sar]

and I'm not as impacted as may might be. I'm not seeking new loans, I only have one mortgage and my payroll comes from government dollars (defense contracts) rather than private industry. 'm actually getting busier at work and we are probably going to hire some people.

 

I'm sure that there will be impacts.... like paying $1.68 for gas (the same gas that people claimed was in such short supply that it drove the price over $4).

 

Anyway... everyone is impacted differently and everyone has their opinions. I chose to not pay much attention to the whole thing since the impact to me was not as direct.

 

Guess we'lls ee how this all plays out. (perhaps Obama will wave his magic wand and make it all better)

[tekazgtr1984]

There will still be marine and industrial engines being built if they go under it will just be stuff from other country's not supporting all of are people that will be out of work, And so you know GM engines are used in the majority of industrial equipment, I mean even some toyota forklifts have gm engines in them. The marine world would not care if ford went under as There is no one trying to make fords work for marine applications anymore. The last company that was

doing that was redline marine but they went under already. And for the people saying that the American car company's have not been moving forward in tech are all wrong, I mean comparing the engines from 6 years ago to now we produce 2 times the power with less gas and have better emitions. Two of the most prestigious awards in the industry are the Motor Trend Car and Truck of the Year, as well as the North American Car and Truck of the Year. These awards are given by those that study the cars/trucks for a living - they are unbiased. The awards are based on design, technology innovation, ride, handing, safety, performance and value. As the 2009 awards have not all been made. You'll note that GM received 5 of the top 8 positions. There's a lot of competition out there - and most of them are very good.

 

I agree with you there. Out of the Big 3, GM seems to have a way more visionary and diverse approach to their whole business plan when considering the future and the evolution of automobiles.

[k9sar]

GM and Chrysler have both said that without help, they WILL run out of cash within weeks. If that's not folding, then what would you call it?

 

didn't hear that. don't believe them. Why would they lie about something like that? to pressure the gov into giving them money. I think their bluffing. I also doubt they took earnings into the equation. It's easy to make a statement like "at the current spending rate, we will use all of our current holdings within the next 2 weeks". Typical spin on the numbers to try to enforce a point.

Edited December 12, 2008 by k9sar

[Kingman]

didn't hear that. don't believe them. Why would they lie about something like that? to pressure the gov into giving them money. I think their bluffing.

 

Alright, we'll see how things end up

[tekazgtr1984]

didn't hear that. don't believe them. Why would they lie about something like that? to pressure the gov into giving them money. I think their bluffing.

 

Agreed, I think it's a bluff and they just want to alleviate some of the economic pressure they're facing.

[BoneZ]

Agreed, I think it's a bluff and they just want to alleviate some of the economic pressure they're facing.

 

You are all right about 1 thing they would not completely go under, Ford says they have the money to make it through yay the least inovated most falling behind company can survive because they dont upgrade they products like the others, Gm will close down in America but will live on through its Brazilian counterpart. Note the GM Brazil is really a separate entity from America GM, They do not use much American made goods in there production. And use mostly smaller engines like 1.6-2.4 style engines and are mostly lp & NG engines. Chrysler Is in big trouble, I love dodge my main vehicle is a dodge 1/2 ton 4x4, but the company spent way to much of there research money making the electric engine transmition that is due to release in 2010, for those that dont know about this it is a eletric engine built into the transmition you dont even have to turn on your engine to drive around town, but for highway you can tap the power of the heme in 4-6 or 8 cylender mode depending on the power you need. That transmition would change the way more efficant vehicals are made world round. But Chrysler has been in trouble for a while and trying to sale out GM was going to buy them but They did not have the money. And like I said before not only will the car company's die but company's that make ECM's, wiring harness stuff, 100's of machine shops that make there parts, Several of the Foundry's in America are keep afloat by the car company's as well. If you tried to list every kind of company that will be put out of business by the car company's dieing you would be there for longer then 90 percent of the population realizes. I am probably overly opinionated on this though as I am one of the millions of people that will lose there jobs if they go under.

[Precise1]

What about the big telecom crash years back? Did they get bailed out? No!! Did tens of thousands of people lose their jobs? Yes!!

100's of machine shops that make there parts

Yes, as a machinist, I can say I saw many shops go belly up at that time. Hell I even had to loan my buddy who owns his own shop $10k just so he could stay afloat.

Yes, this may be a bit bigger but it's the same thing. How about the CEO only makes $1,000,000 a year without bonuses instead of 20+. Here is a million, now do your farking job or lose it! How about the workers on the assembly line who can hardly spell their own name earn what they are worth? Say $12/hr max. How about if things are slow, they don't get paid 80% of their wages to stay home, they get 0 like everyone else? Don't like that, well, get another farking job!!!

 

I've been on the receiving end of downsizing, business closures, etc. That's a risk you, me, everyone takes so save some $ and deal with it!! No one worried about me when I wasn't working, I don't see why it's different now for others. Yes, many people will be affected, but who guarenteed anything. The short term may be harsh, but the long term will be healthier by far. The country will adapt and move on. Do you think all those skills, equipment and processes will be lost? No instead of GM, GM2 will start right up minus a lot of fat (probably 50% of the company) and do the same thing, only maybe smarter this time...

 

B

[Dowser]

I can't believe that anyone on here that is in favor of backing up the Big 3 can Honestly believe that the CEO's and Big Wigs of the 3 company's have not seen this coming. Seriously. With the money they've had rolling in you don't think that they have had the BEST advisors to predict outcomes, Whether they be good or bad. They've Planned every scenario no matter which way the market goes to still make the best of the worst for THEMSELVES. Even if the company's go belly up you have to still understand that the people in charge making the decisions are still going to end up rich as per the plan regardless of what it APPEARS to the masses. If you think for a second that they care whether Winston loses a job, or whether Billy Bob can't feed his family anymore then you are so sadly mistaken. Want proof? Then if you lose your Job, head over to their Lavish mansion's and ask them for a couple cans if beans off their Full shelves and see how far that gets you.

 

As far as making progress... Sure maybe they've made some progress but that still doesn't change the fact that the North American Auto industry is still far behind European, and Asian Auto manufacturers. Is it any wonder really that with the state of the World,( Oil cost, Global Warming, The Dollar, etc.) that the Big 3 would suffer when so much of their production is in Truck sales? For Christ sake they were still making Hummers regardless of the attention Global Warming was given. As far as I'm concerned, Unless your in the office of the big 3 talking to them like they talk to their lawyers, you have NO IDEA whats going on cause the Media just spins what the Automakers want the public to hear anyway.

 

Sheep... That's all the pubic is.

Edited December 12, 2008 by Dowser

[laxman0324]

Brat: If you are talking about Nardelli, he was just got fired from Home Depot like 1.5 years ago and he got paid a ton to leave then too! What a piece of garbage that guy is, he is the reason Home Depot sucks now...

 

 

And on the topic, I think that to most people "american" car means nothing to them, especially when they don't know that most of our cars and trucks are made in america now...I think some of those companies need to go under, it sucks for the people who work for them, but this is the nature of any competitive product based business, there is NO guarantee...

 

 

 

I think letting them tank would make them open up their eyes, use GM as an example...why have GMC and Chevy? Why have Pontiac when all the same cars are in Chevy? Keep Chevy, drop GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Hummer...maybe sell Saab, def. keep Cadillac. Why do you need 10 different companies to make the same cars? I feel like ALL american car manufacturers need to smart up on this basis (except Chrysler, they NEED to disappear!)

[Kingman]

Brat: If you are talking about Nardelli, he was just got fired from Home Depot like 1.5 years ago and he got paid a ton to leave then too! What a piece of garbage that guy is, he is the reason Home Depot sucks now...

And on the topic, I think that to most people "american" car means nothing to them, especially when they don't know that most of our cars and trucks are made in america now...I think some of those companies need to go under, it sucks for the people who work for them, but this is the nature of any competitive product based business, there is NO guarantee...

I think letting them tank would make them open up their eyes, use GM as an example...why have GMC and Chevy? Why have Pontiac when all the same cars are in Chevy? Keep Chevy, drop GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Hummer...maybe sell Saab, def. keep Cadillac. Why do you need 10 different companies to make the same cars? I feel like ALL american car manufacturers need to smart up on this basis (except Chrysler, they NEED to disappear!)

 

Maybe since Nardelli has so much money, he can loan his own company some :tonguefinger:

Edited December 12, 2008 by kingman92010