How To Improve Sound With Aftermarket Audio System?

[XPLORx4]

I measured the height of the cargo tray, and it's about 2-5/8" high. Unfortunately, not enough for that 10" Pioneer sub, which is 3" deep.

[MichiganAve]

Update:

 

I've re-evaluated the sound of my system, and I think it's actually OK now for not having a sub. While searching for empty cavities to install a sub, I realized that I still had my factory bottle-jack under the rear passenger seat (which I've never used, since I have the hi-lift). After removing the jack, I relocated my tow strap, chain, and snatch-block to that space, which freed up the rear cargo tray under the carpet.

 

So, what I want to know NOW is, what can I put there, and how should I install it? Pioneer 10" Shallow Sub? Since I regularly use the cargo area, I assume I need to keep the lid to the tray, and mount the sub beneath the lid, so it doesn't get damaged by having stuff on top of it. Should I cut or remove the plastic tray bottom so the sub uses the body sheetmetal? Do I need a custom fiberglass enclosure? Dynamat?

 

I would drive the sub using Ch3+4 of the Alpine amp, and drive the rear 6.5" speakers with the HU.

 

Any advice? Pics of sub installations in that tray?

 

Would I be able to hear the sub if the cargo area is full of gear?

 

I missed this one earlier, and didn't see anybody else comment either-- you are running your stock tweeter in parallel to your door coaxials, powered by the 40x2 front channel of your amp, and without a crossover? And the rear coaxial 40x2 off the rear channel of your amp. Is that right? This needs to be fixed Dean, no more stock tweeter in parallel. Just run the front and rear coaxials off the amp and kill the tweeter. No wonder things sound so bright...

 

As a class, I think the shallow subs are pretty bad. They ironically require larger enclosures in terms of cubic feet. The problem with sound is that the amount of air moved isn't just about surface area of the cone determined by the diameter, it is the distance the cone travels (usually reported by an xmax). These cones are shallow and have very limited excursion. Therefore their efficiency is poor, their low frequency extension is poor, and their volume is poor. The shallow magnet and spider designs also cause issues with sound quality.

 

If you are mounting in the floor, you would want to remove that whole plastic tray. You would need to use fiberglass as the sheetmetal would not be rigid enough alone (don't worry, its actually easy to use fiberglass). You would want to make a grill to go over the top so you can put things on top- a strong metal mesh grille would be just fine. Your problem will be mounting depth here. I think inside my plastic tray I had less than 3 inches, so even with that tray out you will only have 3-4 inches without raising your floor. Underneath your seats you are looking at a similar depth unless you are willing to do some foamectomy and pound in the metal to make more room.

 

Don't forget the doors up front. If you are willing to cut the panels and to make some rings that allow the driver to stick outwards further into the passenger compartment you should be able to fit a good 8 or shallow 10" sub in there. The stock grills for my bose stereo already stick like 2" out into my feet area, I don't think that going further would have bothered me. A setup around this idea could be using components with a tweeter in the stock location, a 5.25" in a new hole cut in the door panel or in the kick-panel, and then the 8" sub in the doors.

 

So if you want a sub, you either need to really custom up the mounting of this sub in the doors, under the seats, or in a storage area-- or just go for a small 10" enclosure in the back.

 

Now, I looked up your amp and it is limiting. Just to get the specs out there, Dean's amp is a 40x4 at 4ohm. It does 50x4 at 2ohm and 100x2 bridged at 4ohm. So it doesn't really double down and we don't have much power here to play with. With this available power, my idea of running stereo 8s in both doors or under both seats isn't gonna work. I see two real options (after you have removed that stock tweeter hook-up and reassessed how things sound):

1. Get better components and live without a subwoofer. You could bridge your amp to 100x2 to those front speakers and power some very nice components, much better quality than you have now overall, but only marginally deeper (but a ton less bright compared to the whole parallel stock tweeter thing). Even speakers like the MBQuart Q series will work on 100watts RMS (to remedy my complaints of brightness without buying an EQ, you can use the control including with their crossover to tune down the tweeter a few dB, which helps a lot). Run the current rear speakers off the deck. After this is setup, if you still need a little more help you could add an equalizer. This will sound really nice, but just lack thump below 45hz.

2. Have weaker front speakers running at 40x2, and run a single sub at 100x1. For that sub, I would think of the generic frequency bottom ends as 40hz for an 8", 30hz for a 10", and 20hz for a 12" (greatly oversimplified). So you either custom-fab something in a door, under a seat, or in the storage area for an 8" or shallow 10"-- neither is going to be earth-shattering bass but it'll be a little better than you have now. Or you just get a normal 10" designed for small enclosures, make a small box with a good grille over the speaker so you can just throw your stuff around it in the back and not worry- that would truly sound the best in terms of the low-end.

 

Between 1 and 2 is personal taste. With limited money, space, and amp power, #1 gives the best sounding quality for everything except low-end bass. In fact, you could power some great speakers with 100watts RMS if you bridge that amp. Now, if you gotta listen to Snoop while crossing the Rubicon, go with #2-- your front speakers won't be as good but you'll pound out the lows. Either way will be a vast improvement over your current 40x4 setup with stock tweeters in parallel!

[nissandoms47]

Now, if you gotta listen to Snoop while crossing the Rubicon

 

Lol, i'm down. What do you guys think of the polk audio components? I'm running those in the front doors with some Kenwood Excelon tweeters and some pioneer 4 ways in the rear. I have a Premier MP-480 or something deck and i'd like to get more quality when I turn it up more, Is that something an amp is needed for? Right now its all ran through the stock amp.

[FUELER]

So what do you guys recommend for sound deadening material? I wanna make it a little quieter inside.

 

 

I used dynamat extreme and it works wonders but it is expensive.

 

 

Heres a great resource!

 

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/products/

[mora2818]

If you need more power you could sell your Alpine on Ebay and pick up an Xtant off Ebay too. The alpine should get you some decent money. I have bought 2 Xtants (403a and 3300x) off Ebay for $100 each and they will pretty much do everything you need with regards to crossovers, equilization, staging. They are kind of a hidden gem and the best part is 1 can run your whole system. If Mich is going to be down there, he can help you set you up with that. They are the easiest amps to configure.

 

I still think you could do a cargo area with 1 of those shallow subs with a raised floor. I agree they won't sound as nice as a "normal" sub but I totally understand the space concern and went with an option that wasn't to my full liking on my subaru as far a sub setup. The good is I lost about 1.5 inches of the trunk. The bad is it doesn't sound great. My pathfinder however has the setup I want but at the expense of a big ported box.

 

Here is some pics of my sub setup in my subaru:

Fiberglass Box

Raised Floor

[MichiganAve]

If you need more power you could sell your Alpine on Ebay and pick up an Xtant off Ebay too. The alpine should get you some decent money. I have bought 2 Xtants (403a and 3300x) off Ebay for $100 each and they will pretty much do everything you need with regards to crossovers, equilization, staging. They are kind of a hidden gem and the best part is 1 can run your whole system. If Mich is going to be down there, he can help you set you up with that. They are the easiest amps to configure.

 

I still think you could do a cargo area with 1 of those shallow subs with a raised floor. I agree they won't sound as nice as a "normal" sub but I totally understand the space concern and went with an option that wasn't to my full liking on my subaru as far a sub setup. The good is I lost about 1.5 inches of the trunk. The bad is it doesn't sound great. My pathfinder however has the setup I want but at the expense of a big ported box.

 

Here is some pics of my sub setup in my subaru:

Fiberglass Box

Raised Floor

 

Xtant makes some good amps. You would have some more flexibility in planning a system if you were to get a new amp, like I said before you are limited with your current one.

 

That looks like an Image Dynamics logo to me, not a shallow sub. IDQ, IDMax? What was wrong with the sub set that you said it wasn't to your full liking? They make some pretty good subs.

Edited May 22, 2007 by MichiganAve

[XPLORx4]

To be honest, I'm totally fine with the power output of the Alpine amp. When I replaced my Bose system last fall, I didn't set out to build a competition sound system, I just wanted:

 

1) DVD in-dash

2) get rid of the annoying buzzing from one of the OEM speakers and get *slightly* better sound.

3) replacement components HAVE to occupy no more cargo/passenger space than OEM.

 

I mounted the Alpine amp in the cavity that the OEM Bose amp left behind, even using the original brackets. It's a perfect fit. I specifically chose the amp because of its size, so it's staying. 40Wx4 provides satisfactory power for me. The system just needs to have more low end, especially when the volume is at 1/3 to 1/2 of max. Bass response doesn't really seem to even come in until the volume is 2/3 to max.

 

It looks like I may have to compromise on my "can't take up more space than OEM" position. Does anyone have opinions about JL Audio products, specifically this?

Edited May 22, 2007 by XPLORx4

[Enjoi408]

I dont know if this is any use but in my truck there is a open blank space in the rear right wall under the window. maybe you can get a custom made box to fit in there. Im not sure about how the sub would fit but just an idea.

[FUELER]

dude that JL stealthbox is bad ass. Perfect for your needs. I knew a guy who had one in his yukon and it sounded great. I am running a singel JL 10" right now and its great.

[nissandoms47]

That stealth box looks pretty sweet. One thing I would like is to have it factory looking. That stealth box looks pretty factory vs just a sub in a box in the back.

[MichiganAve]

To be honest, I'm totally fine with the power output of the Alpine amp. When I replaced my Bose system last fall, I didn't set out to build a competition sound system, I just wanted:

 

1) DVD in-dash

2) get rid of the annoying buzzing from one of the OEM speakers and get *slightly* better sound.

3) replacement components HAVE to occupy no more cargo/passenger space than OEM.

 

I mounted the Alpine amp in the cavity that the OEM Bose amp left behind, even using the original brackets. It's a perfect fit. I specifically chose the amp because of its size, so it's staying. 40Wx4 provides satisfactory power for me. The system just needs to have more low end, especially when the volume is at 1/3 to 1/2 of max. Bass response doesn't really seem to even come in until the volume is 2/3 to max.

 

It looks like I may have to compromise on my "can't take up more space than OEM" position. Does anyone have opinions about JL Audio products, specifically this?

 

JL Audio is good. I think since the W0 is discontinued that now they sell this with the W1 version 2 which is their current lowest line. But it is better suited to your weak amp than other JL subs.

Seriously, fix that parallel stock tweeter before going any further with the sub route. Disconnect it. You have no idea how much that is messing up your sound. It also is doing bad things to your amp. Most bose speakers are 1 or 2 ohm. Throw that in parallel with a 4 ohm speaker and your amp is seeing 0.8 or 1.3 ohms, way below what it can handle. Because the bose speaker has lower resistance, it gets more current than your alpines and is out of proportion louder.

[mora2818]

Just an ID10 in a trunk is the problem. Should have done at least a 12 but this was my first vehicle with a trunk and didn't account for how much sound db's would be lost getting through the seats. As far Image Dynamics, ya I love the sound. I have a Alpine Type-R in the Pathy and I think the sound is ok. Definetly loud but only Ok sounding. The ID 10 musically sounds much, much better but just can't push enough air.

 

I was only showing my design as an example of what you could do with a Shallow 10 or 12 if you got creative. But if JL already makes a stealth box and you can afford it, you won't be disapointed. They are overpriced in my opinion but top notch stuff. In fact in a perfect world where I had a ton of money, I would either choose Image Dynamics or JL for a sub/s everytime.

[XPLORx4]

Yikes! I just called a local JLAudio dealer for a quote on that Stealthbox, and it's $549! I don't think I want bass THAT badly...

 

BTW, if I *did* replace the front speakers with components, it doesn't look like aftermarket tweeters will fit in the OEM locations and retain the OEM grille. Thoughts?

Edited May 22, 2007 by XPLORx4

[nissandoms47]

I have some kenwood excelons in mine. I had to trim the housing of the tweeter to make it fit inside the OEM grille. I just used double stick tape to hold it in place.

[MichiganAve]

Yikes! I just called a local JLAudio dealer for a quote on that Stealthbox, and it's $549! I don't think I want bass THAT badly...

 

BTW, if I *did* replace the front speakers with components, it doesn't look like aftermarket tweeters will fit in the OEM locations and retain the OEM grille. Thoughts?

 

JL audio is overpriced, and any authorized dealer will charge closer to MSRP than online dealers. If you want to save money, build your own.

 

You can fit tweeters behind those grilles. I stuck my aftermarket tweeters to the A pillar without their own grille, fit just fine behind the OEM one.

 

Did you disconnect those stock tweeters that were in parallel yet?

[XPLORx4]

Did you disconnect those stock tweeters that were in parallel yet?

 

No, I haven't even touched the truck since Sunday. I'll probably tinker with it tonight.

[FUELER]

Yikes! I just called a local JLAudio dealer for a quote on that Stealthbox, and it's $549! I don't think I want bass THAT badly...

 

BTW, if I *did* replace the front speakers with components, it doesn't look like aftermarket tweeters will fit in the OEM locations and retain the OEM grille. Thoughts?

 

 

That is pretty steep for a 10W1 sub!! A JL 10W1 sub by itself should be around $110. Does that price include installation or something? Does it have an amp of some sort? A $400 enclosure is too much.

 

I paid about $300 for a JL 10W3 in a custom ported box that was built by a JL dealer, and the W3 hits harder than the W1. JL W1 is the bottom of the JL line, but dont be fooled - they are still better than a lot of the top end subs from other companies!

 

 

And about the tweeters - it was no problem for me, I fit some JBL tweeters in there - I just had to slightly dent the grilles to accommodate the larger tweeters but it is hardly noticeable.

Edited May 22, 2007 by FUELER

[mora2818]

Easy cheap and not much space could be strap a bazooka tube somewhere. I don't know if they still make those and I have never heard one but I know they were slightly better than some of the garbage out there.

[XPLORx4]

I removed the OEM tweeters, but the sound isn't changed very much.

 

BTW, the OEM tweeters are 4-ohm and made by Clarion. They just use a capacitor. I'm pretty sure the original Bose 6.5" speakers were full-range. With a component speaker, where would the crossover be mounted? Inside the door panel?

Edited May 23, 2007 by XPLORx4

[02silverpathy]

It is quite possible that the crossover was built into the bose amp. My BMW HK is, OEM Bose/OEM Harmon Kardon bah still paper speakers!

 

I still say that those clarion tweeter speakers ae geat when crossed over and amplified. Worked in my path as well as the wifes Altima.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~That stealthbox has no amp!!~~~~~~~~~~~But is sure does fit well!

[XPLORx4]

It is quite possible that the crossover was built into the bose amp. My BMW HK is, OEM Bose/OEM Harmon Kardon bah still paper speakers!

 

I still say that those clarion tweeter speakers ae geat when crossed over and amplified. Worked in my path as well as the wifes Altima.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~That stealthbox has no amp!!~~~~~~~~~~~But is sure does fit well!

 

The Bose (Clarion) tweeters were not crossed-over at the amp. The Bose amp in the front doors has only 6 connections:

+12vdc

Ground

IN +

IN -

OUT +

OUT -

 

If the tweeters were crossed-over, there would be another two connections on the Bose amp. But instead, the wires leading to the tweeters are soldered to the wires that plug into the woofer.

[XPLORx4]

For reference:

 

My Alpine MRP-F250 4/3/2-ch amp isn't über-powerful (and I'm actually quite satisfied with that). Here are its specs:

40Wx4 RMS (75Wx4 max) @ 4ohms

50Wx4 RMS @ 2ohms

100Wx2 RMS (180Wx2 max) @ bridged 4ohms

 

My Kenwood DDX7017 head-unit amp is 22Wx4 RMS (50Wx4 max).

 

Given these specs, I don't understand why I y'all are recommending super powerful speakers.

[FUELER]

because you were asking for bass, and the bottom line is you won't have any with ANY aftermarket door speakers - let alone your current setup!

 

 

In my opinion, powerful is a good thing. Doesn't mean you have to go rattle your trunk at full volume. JL subs sound great when listening to a movie or listening to music quietly.... Better than any movie theatre when i'm at the drive-in.

 

 

 

A single 8" sub would *probably* meet your needs, a single 10" sub is enough to start rattling the trunk when cranked up and would definitely meet your needs. My buddy had a bazooka tube and it is absolute junk, I wouldn't use it if I got it for free.

Edited May 23, 2007 by FUELER

[XPLORx4]

because you were asking for bass, and the bottom line is you won't have any with ANY aftermarket door speakers - let alone your current setup!

 

What I meant was why would I need a set of door speakers whose power rating is so high when my amp only produces 40W RMS? The MBQuart QSF 216 Nano's suggested by Dan are way overkill, not to mention hundreds of dollars over my budget. Derrick mentioned "weaker" door speakers. Which "weaker" component speakers?

[MichiganAve]

What I meant was why would I need a set of door speakers whose power rating is so high when my amp only produces 40W RMS? The MBQuart QSF 216 Nano's suggested by Dan are way overkill, not to mention hundreds of dollars over my budget. Derrick mentioned "weaker" door speakers. Which "weaker" component speakers?

 

If you want to run high end speakers, you can by bridging that amp to 2 channels. There is no point in powering your rear speakers off that amp instead of the headunit in my opinion. So I'd either power a sub, or bridge to the fronts.

 

Bazooka is junk... The stealthbox looks good, is small, would work off your amp's power. If you want to go cheaper then build something small yourself.

 

I can tell you that the MBQuart Q series won't do well off 40 watts. With only 40 watts you are probably looking at entry-line, like a Focal 165 A1. Not sure if MBQuart or Polk offer something in that power range. You can also check the other big manufacturers like Alpine, JL Audio, Rockford, Pioneer, etc. The best way to judge this is looking at the nominal power rating and the sensitivity. Something with a continuous power rating of 40-60 should work. Higher sensitivities will make better use of that power, so avoid getting something with 60-70 watts power rating unless it has a sensitivity >90.

 

If you want to make sure it doesn't sound "bright" then look for a silk dome tweeter instead of metal, or just get an equalizer.