Loose Change.

[k9sar]

there was video of a plan hitting the pentagon that was from a secrity gate, the last time i saw it it was hard to see what actually hit it, i first saw it a few years ago and it was clear what it was, but the only thing i find odd is that there is no wings or holes in the pentagon where the wings went into, at the wtc u can see where they went into the building, but idk, im not in anyway an aircraft engineer or a building dude

 

I have seen many documentaries as well as alternate theory programming with respect to these events. As I plan to stay out of this discussion cause I get easily annoyed by people who think it is more outrageous that a plane was flown into the pentagon (when there is overwhelming evidence that there were at least 2 other planes flown into buildings as part of the sept 11 attacks) than the US using a military aircraft to fire a cruise missile at it's own government building.

 

anyway... simply to address the quoted post... there are many (as well as myself) who believe that the absense of 'wing holes' in the pentagon was due to two factors... the plane hitting the ground first as evidenced by the scar in the ground and the fact that the walls of the pentagon were f'ing thick stone as opposed to glass panels like the WTC. Planes are made of lightweight material and it is my opinion that a wing on an aircraft would barely even chip the wall.

 

 

ps. and YES, I'm an aerospace engineer.

Edited May 2, 2006 by k9sar

[vengeful]

Also, to add to what Scott said...you can't forget that the plane had a full load of fuel. And you know where they hold all that fuel? In the wings! Sparks + jet fuel = KABOOM.

[94extreme]

yet, there were no pieces left.. hmm? maybe scotty beamed them up.

[vengeful]

Have you ever thrown a beer can in a hot campfire? There generally isn't much left of it. Airplanes are made of aluminum, and are filled with stuff that burns at 3000°C+. Using 6061-T6 Aluminum as a guideline, Al melts at 530°C. You do the math....I wouldn't expect a whole lot to be left of it.

[94extreme]

if it went kaboom, pieces went flying. there is no way they all just vapourised. i wouldn't expect a whole lot left of it either but there was nothing left.

 

the gov seems to have left off some pics when they released some stills. why? from the things i have seen that "plane" sure didn't look like no 747. some of the questions raised over the years i find valid, yet we get no clarification. i think it would be in our best interest to get a straight answer on this, no? not releasing all the available info leads to these kinds of questions and puts doubt in people's minds. i would think we'd all want to know the truth.

[GrimGreg]

Another FACT, cruise missles aren't wide enough to knock down the light poles the way the PLANE actually did.

 

MZ, when it went "boom" it was inside a building, the building kept peices from flying very far.

[94extreme]

so now, the same aluminum can penetrate stone? hmm..

 

i think that's one of the questions, the light poles didn't get knocked down.

[GrimGreg]

Not only that but after you are dead you get to go immediatly to heaven, no waiting in line no purgatory, an immediate go directly to heaven card.

Don't forget he free Virgins waiting

[vengeful]

How do you know there was nothing left? Were you there? Did you go down and inspect the scene before they started cleaning up - which was pretty much immediate for all intensive purposes? There was tons of debris everywhere. Not to mention that the aluminum wings followed the feuselage into the building after breaking loose on the 36" thick, steel reinforced concrete/stone exterior walls of the Pentagon. I'd like to see a Tomahawk or Sidewinder do that much damage after not being able to go through a wall like that.

 

So the Gov't isn't telling you everything? It's not like that's something new. They haven't told you the whole story on anything since well before the assasination of Abraham Lincoln. JFK anyone???

 

I find it much harder to believe that the US Government would launch an attack on its own soil, and BLOW UP ITS MILITARY HEADQUARTERS. The though of that is just asinine. Oh, and while we're on the subject...how about JFK...conspriacy theorists believe that it was a CIA operation to assasinate him. WHY would the government assasinate the greatest President to ever run the country? Because he wouldn't be their puppet? BS!

[vengeful]

Don't forget he free Virgins waiting

70 of them at that.

[rmd0311]

I thought it was 70 Angry Virginians.

 

Anyone see Robin Williams Live on Broadway..

[vengeful]

from the things i have seen that "plane" sure didn't look like no 747.

Can you provide supporting evidence for that? Also, 99.99% of the population of the country is relying on NewsMedia to relay the story to them. Don't you remember playing Telephone when you were a kid. When the story is originally taken, it's taken in bits and peices, and then filled up by someone else, and broadcast by yet another person. All of these are PEOPLE. PEOPLE make MISTAKES. It may have been incorrectly identified as a 747 by the airlines, or by the news.

 

I couldn't tell what kind of plane it was, but it was travelling at about its cruising speed of 600mph+, so I only saw it for the blink of an eye, and it was damn near impossible to tell exactly what kind of plane it was. That does not mean that it was NOT a 747, but it may very well have been a 727, or 767....or even an Airbus. But it was, in 110% certainty, no shadow of a doubt, an AA Commercial Jetliner.

[vengeful]

I thought it was 70 Angry Virginians.

 

Anyone see Robin Williams Live on Broadway..

"Thats 70 VIRGINIANS you arse****!!!!!" I love that show! I've got it saved on my computer at home. Freakin hysterical.

 

As a matter of fact, I think I'll watch it tonight!

[94extreme]

How do you know there was nothing left? Were you there? Did you go down and inspect the scene before they started cleaning up - which was pretty much immediate for all intensive purposes? There was tons of debris everywhere. Not to mention that the aluminum wings followed the feuselage into the building after breaking loose on the 36" thick, steel reinforced concrete/stone exterior walls of the Pentagon. I'd like to see a Tomahawk or Sidewinder do that much damage after not being able to go through a wall like that.

 

So the Gov't isn't telling you everything? It's not like that's something new. They haven't told you the whole story on anything since well before the assasination of Abraham Lincoln. JFK anyone???

 

I find it much harder to believe that the US Government would launch an attack on its own soil, and BLOW UP ITS MILITARY HEADQUARTERS. The though of that is just asinine. Oh, and while we're on the subject...how about JFK...conspriacy theorists believe that it was a CIA operation to assasinate him. WHY would the government assasinate the greatest President to ever run the country? Because he wouldn't be their puppet? BS!

government acting so quickly?! now that a first. why was a crime scene cleaned up within a couple of hours? impossible.

 

so now the 747 has folding wings?

 

are you saying that it's impossible to that the CIA killed JFK? wow.. without straight and complete answers one may be led to have other inclinations then just the official answer.

 

as hard as it may be to beleieve that the gov would do such a thing it isn't to me when they needed to trump up support to invade Iraq. not really that far fetched and with the current war mongers in power i wouldn't be that surprised.

 

as to WTC, i've seen all kinds of shows on how the building came down and some things seem a little fishy. why would the owner want the building to come down? some videos i have seen sure seem like a demolition took place not just an accident. i don't know and probably we'll never know but i still have questions.

[94extreme]

Can you provide supporting evidence for that? Also, 99.99% of the population of the country is relying on NewsMedia to relay the story to them. Don't you remember playing Telephone when you were a kid. When the story is originally taken, it's taken in bits and peices, and then filled up by someone else, and broadcast by yet another person. All of these are PEOPLE. PEOPLE make MISTAKES. It may have been incorrectly identified as a 747 by the airlines, or by the news.

 

I couldn't tell what kind of plane it was, but it was travelling at about its cruising speed of 600mph+, so I only saw it for the blink of an eye, and it was damn near impossible to tell exactly what kind of plane it was. That does not mean that it was NOT a 747, but it may very well have been a 727, or 767....or even an Airbus. But it was, in 110% certainty, no shadow of a doubt, an AA Commercial Jetliner.

hey dan, i don't daubt your story, you saw something. i haven't seen any proof of what the "plane" was either. no pics of it nor was there any evidence of a plane there. so who knows. just a nice clean, big hole. something hit the pentagon, not sure what it was. but something did.

[vengeful]

so now the 747 has folding wings?

 

No. First of all, I never said that....they didn't FOLD....they broke off. An aircraft wing is not strong enough to puncture the exterior walls of the Pentagon by itself, and the momentum of the feuselage that they were still somewhat attached to pulled them into the building where the explosion took place.

 

are you saying that it's impossible to that the CIA killed JFK?

 

No...not impossible. Highly improbable though, and it doesn't make a lick of sense as to why they would.

[94extreme]

i think you're reaching hard on the first part.

 

look into LBJ. i can see him ordering such a thing. never had a good feeling about the guy. seemed like a sore looser to me.

[vengeful]

Reaching? Perhaps...but I know what I saw. I saw an airplane hit the Pentagon, and then there was a hole, and a big effin explosion. And that's it. The Pentagon is built as a bomb shelter. The construction is really interesting on the building. Check it out if you've got time sometime.

 

 

I can see someone putting a contract on JFKs head, yes. And that someone may have very well been from within the government. But I highly doubt that the government carried it out.

[94extreme]

yeah, i have read about the construction of the pentagram. i will have to take your word on this. you did see some kind of plane impact the building. fair enough. thanks for sharing.

[k9sar]

just for clarification... flight 77 was a 757 not a 747. It differs slightly

 

747 has 4 engines, 757 has 2

747 wingspan is 64.4 meters, 757 is 38 meters

747 empty weight is 180.8 tons, a 757 is 64.4 tons

747 max takeoff weight is 412 tons, a 757 is 127 tons

747 carries 241,140 liters of fuel, a 757 only carries 43,490 liters

 

Many of the "it was a missile not a plane" theorists base their arguments on a statement that was apparently in the news about it being a 747 that crashed. True, there are many interesting points to each argument and there are far more pictures available (if you search) than most people typically see (look for Jason Ingersoll or Will Morris for examples). Draw your own conclusions.

[GrimGreg]

as to WTC, i've seen all kinds of shows on how the building came down and some things seem a little fishy. why would the owner want the building to come down? some videos i have seen sure seem like a demolition took place not just an accident. i don't know and probably we'll never know but i still have questions.

Nothing fishy at all, the type of construction they used is stable unless there is a catastrophic failure. Most buildings built before this century weren't made with a lot of redundantcy in their structure. The actual floors aren't engineered to hold the weight of the concrete from the other floors on them (at least 2 buildings have fallen during construction for the same reason). The fire retardant that they spray onto the steel will peal/crumble off quite easily if it is disturbed, or if the steel it is afixed to rusts a little. Working in comercial construction you learn a little on just how "rigged" some things are. We had to remove the retardant to attach wall framing to the beams. One thing they are begining to do to stop that is add another coating over the outside of the retardant to bond it all together better.

[GrimGreg]

Something else to think about when looking for pieces, this is a photo of the plane that hit in PA, it hit earth, in the middle of a feild...just a few small pieces left, nothing recognisable as anything.

 

 

 

We know exactly what happened on that plane thanks to all the people on their cell phones.

[k9sar]

fire retardent does not prevent heat from affecting the metal. Heat it and it will bend. Once it starts to bend, the linear strength is lost and ... well... it folds.

[k9sar]

Something else to think about when looking for pieces, this is a photo of the plane that hit in PA, it hit earth, in the middle of a feild...just a few small pieces left, nothing recognisable as anything.

 

 

 

We know exactly what happened on that plane thanks to all the people on their cell phones.

oh, but GG, don't forget... there are those that believe that the plane never crashed in PA (about a mile from my relatives house). There was a secret coverup where the flight was actually rerouted to cleveland and everyone brainwashed and sent to live in communes in south dakota.

[GrimGreg]

fire retardent does not prevent heat from affecting the metal. Heat it and it will bend. Once it starts to bend, the linear strength is lost and ... well... it folds.

Actually the stuff they use does just that, it's a "non burning" insulation layer effectively. It is made to slow heat from getting to and destroying the steal, it only works to a point though, and only if it is intact.