banx Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 So guys, me and the wife just got back from a long long ass drive to see the parents. BC has a lot of mountains and hills to climb. it was 1600kms each way... gearing down to maintain speed on a few hills was bothering me, as well as having 'perfect timing' to take advantage of passing lanes. I knew what I was getting and I'm happy with this truck even though it seriously needs more power. and this random, very random post is about generating more power..... I'm not tech elite, but I understand the principals of the combustion engine. (raced nitro and electric rc's for many years) I know cold air burns better than warm or hot air. You can even feel it on a brisk autumn morning when your truck has all this extra power. now this is just for @!*%s and giggles. but has anyone thought or tried to use the a/c system to provide air for cumbustion to the engine? since the air is filtered already, could it be injected behind the MAF or would that throw off the ratio the computer is reading? or could it be injected before the maf? what type of issues do you forsee? i'm just wondering if this in theory would work. having the cold air would help tremdously during these summer days..... i ran nitrous in my s14 240sx with a ka24de. for 2 years without issue or detonation. and i never had to gear down on hills with that car.... the hp and torque ratings are similar. however 2 less pistons in the ka24de and a ton more weight with the pathy... any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Interesting.... My question would be how would you plumb in the duct work for this to work.... I'd be willing to try it out for sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The drag of the AC would off set any possible gains and it doesn't have nearly enough CFM to meet the needs. After the MAF would mess up the ratios... Cold air intake helps of course, and so does an aftermarket filter but that can be a problem in wet situations. If you want more power, an isolated cone filter, headers, freeflow cat and larger exhaust will wake things up a bit. Next step is to look at gearing and tire size to optimize... B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yeah, it would have to go in before the MAF, and then it would have to create enough extra power to run the compressor... I doubt it'd be worth it. I've heard that snorkels help in this respect, because they suck colder air from outside the vehicle. That's probably in comparison to a cold air intake kit though, as the stock airbox sucks from the fender. (I can't come up with a reason why you couldn't use a cone filter in line with a snorkel.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (I can't come up with a reason why you couldn't use a cone filter in line with a snorkel.) Exactly what I plan to do... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banx Posted July 31, 2012 Author Share Posted July 31, 2012 I have no intention of doing it I'm just curious IF it would work and if you tried how would you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 Its still a valid idea, similar to the guys that run C02 or nitrogen cooling on their intercoolers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1987caddy Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 What about routing air filter inside to the passenger compartment? It would pull 70-75 degree air all year long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 If the whistling sound from it doesn't drive you nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) Sorry to be bursting everybody's bubbles here but this is the real deal: You can't get the intake to run cold. Why? That has to do with the way the coolant is routed. Hot coolant returns through the lower intake manifold to make the intake air very hot. Why? Hot intake air creates a more complete burn and results in lower emissions. That being said, you can still do something about it like adding a heat blocking spacer between the upper and lower plenums. Apparently it was of some benefit to MY1PATH. Check the product review section on the forum for more details. The other thing you can look into for a quick power increase is either disabling the EGR valve by pulling its vacuum off and capping it or converting the EGR valve to an EGR-BPT style valve. Of course the last thing you can do is a better exhaust system with headers but that's not going to be cheap. I run a EGR-BPT valve and have a 2.50" exhaust with short tube headers and I have to say that the power increase is there over stock and it never failed an inspection. To actually get the intake to run cold, you will need to change the heads with special racing heads with their own cooling lines and use velocity stacks which will not pipe the return coolant. FYI: You can also look into an e-fan conversion as that would take some drag off the engine. Almost forgot to mention... As far as those cone filters are concerned, they will give you a nice small boost because they eliminate the intake silencers. However, they are expensive to replace, can get a bit loud, and run you at a risk of ingesting a little too much water off-road. Apexi makes good paper cone filters that should block water from coming in but that will get even more expensive quickly. Edited August 1, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 The cylinder compression will still heat up the air anyway. Cutting out a little heat before the air goes in should mean denser air, thus more oxygen, and a cleaner burn. I can see the benefit in the winter (or in Siberia), but otherwise, a little cooler air would probably be a good thing. Aren't there some cone filters you can just wash out and re-oil? And I thought these came stock with the EGR and the BPT? Mine has both. Is it a 94+ thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 (edited) Yes, the BPT is a newer truck thing. The washable cone filters are not as easy to wash as it seems and the oil can ruin the MAF sensor. They can also suck up water when you're wheeling and make you hydrolock. A little cooler air would only be possible if you could isolate the intake from the coolant. It's not as easy as it looks. A cold air intake will allow you to make more power by allowing you to burn more fuel at a more open throttle. A warmer air intake will make you open the throttle more for the same amount of power therefore reducing the amount of work your engine has to do to get air into the opening. A warmer intake reduces pumping loss at the expense of horsepower and results in cleaner emissions. Theoretically speaking, a hot air intake will increase fuel efficiency at normal speeds while a cold air intake will increase fuel efficiency and power in the top end. Unless you like driving around with your foot to the floor, which is wide open throttle, getting a cold air intake is not a very good idea. If you want the best of both worlds, a ram air intake would be the best as incoming air will be more dense when you go faster. Edited August 2, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Seems like the function of a CAI is less about air temp than it is about restriction. It's not like the air it's sucking past the grille is going to be that much cooler than the air it's pulling out of the fender... just less tubing, fewer transitions, and a better filter. I've read a lot of people saying that a CAI boosted mileage over the stock system, and if they're bothering to check mileage, I doubt they're at WOT. The heated intake probably comes in real handy in negative temps. When it's 104* outside, not so much. So depending on where you live and how cold it gets, a reduction in intake temp could improve power without screwing up the mileage... a system meant to work in a variety of conditions probably isn't optimal for any of them. (And while the heated intake will by design increase air temp, cold air in isn't going to come out as hot as if it was warm already.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 If you've ever had an air cooled VW carb ice up on you and stop working, you know why the intake is heated. I plan to leave mine alone other than supplying it with 'cold' air from a snorkel... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Seems like the function of a CAI is less about air temp than it is about restriction. It's not like the air it's sucking past the grille is going to be that much cooler than the air it's pulling out of the fender... just less tubing, fewer transitions, and a better filter. I've read a lot of people saying that a CAI boosted mileage over the stock system, and if they're bothering to check mileage, I doubt they're at WOT. The heated intake probably comes in real handy in negative temps. When it's 104* outside, not so much. So depending on where you live and how cold it gets, a reduction in intake temp could improve power without screwing up the mileage... a system meant to work in a variety of conditions probably isn't optimal for any of them. (And while the heated intake will by design increase air temp, cold air in isn't going to come out as hot as if it was warm already.) That's exactly what it is. Those CAI kits (not to be confused with a true cold air intake) only help by eliminating silencers and sometimes providing a larger surface area for air to come in. It has nothing to do with actually lowering the intake temperature. The problem with a heated intake is the aluminum plenum, especially the upper one, can actually soak up heat while you are on the street and make the intake run too hot. That's where the intake temperature optimization is lost. There is not enough air flowing past the plenum to cool it off while you're idling so it will get hot to the point where it creates a lagging throttle. If you notice, most new vehicles come with plastic upper intakes because they are cheap and will actually reduce heat soak on the street. The aluminum vs plastic upper plenum debate has been forever ongoing but the differences between throttle response are only noticed on the street so it's not much of an issue on the highway between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banx Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 interesting..... I knew that a cold air intake was just to eliminate restrictions and allow it to breath better. I was unaware that air was heated prior to combustion.... definetly capping the egr now... it would also be interesting to know the real world gains from plugging the intake preheat I noticed a power difference in my 240sx say on a july morning compared to one in october. so i though simply chilling the air would help...... also i know running nitrous cools the intake air as well..... I have decided this truck is going to be with me for a while. it has a recent 3.0l motor swap. just a stock replacement.... 2.5 exhaust from the cat back and thats about all in the power department..... it needs more. since the engine is fairly new i'm reluctant to swap it for a 3.3l as theres only 87k on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Set up water injection. It cools the air, increases compression and removes carbon build up. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Water injection is only for turbocharged applications as water will significantly increase octane of the fuel. You are only going to be losing power with a N/A water injection setup. If you can keep the intake from heating, the gains would be decent. About 10-15 hp worth of gain. However, if you are only doing that to drive at highway speeds, it's a huge waste of money. The gain is only seen at when the throttle is fully open or nearly fully open. Having cold air at highway speeds will speed you up so you will have to be lighter on the throttle and not open the throttle as much and that's where the problem exists as that will cost fuel efficiency and engine emissions and maybe even get the oil to sludge up quicker. Simply put, you get better efficiency with a more open warm throttle than a less open cold throttle unless you are trying to go really fast. Edited August 5, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1987caddy Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Water injection works great with N/A motors. Let's you bump timing higher as the octane in the fuel is increased. We have used it on gas burner delivery trucks were we need a little bump in power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Don't mind Tungsten, he has issues. Yet another, cooling the intake will give you 10% power gains. If I ever get the time, I'll play with HHO and water injection to see what difference it makes with mileage and power. If... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banx Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 what about feeding pure oxygen?..... maybe setting up a system that uses th throttle position sensor that opens and closes a feed vale based on the throttle input... would you be prone to more detonation say compared to nitrous oxide? my zex nitrous system was like that, but only fired when the TPS was at full or 5v.... which i by passed and put a trigger on my gear shift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Oxygen and nitrous injection I know little about. Sorry... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Yep, I am out on that... I am more interested in gaining fuel mileage... but that could probably be achieved by running 14 inch wheels with rubber band tires and reducing all the weight from bumpers, winch, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Driving mine to work I average 20mpg. On the way to FL we saw 24 mpg, lowest being 19 in the hilly areas where I was pushing her hard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) Yeah I get pretty much the same gas mileage as you. I saw 24 mpg before but most of the time when I fill up from driving on the way to school and back after I do the math it always averages 20.7 mpg. I will see what happens to that when I put my electrical fan in. Believe it or not running a Nitrous Oxide system down the intake will help but you will have to run premium gas only and I don't know if that stuff is even legal on the street. What you really want though is just more displacement with higher compression. That should bring the efficiency way up. My ultimate power plan is this: VG33E + street VG30E camshaft profile + small low boost turbo + 2.5" exhaust with headers That should be amazing and still able to pass emissions. Water injection works great with N/A motors. Let's you bump timing higher as the octane in the fuel is increased. We have used it on gas burner delivery trucks were we need a little bump in power I don't know about that. The ECU controls the timing curve and I'm not sure how it will respond to water injection. It already has power issues responding to ethanol in gasoline which can slow down the burning a little. Pure gasoline makes a VG a little bit quicker and more efficient than ethanol dissolved gas. I would imagine water injection to trigger a similar response. Don't mind Tungsten, he has issues. Yet another, cooling the intake will give you 10% power gains. If I ever get the time, I'll play with HHO and water injection to see what difference it makes with mileage and power. If... B This has already been debunked. HHO makes no difference at all. Also, cooling the intake will give you top end power gains but that is only if you cool the intake down completely. http://www.aardvark..../hho_scam.shtml Edited August 11, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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