Precise1 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hello all. Here is my rought idea for a PHRXM. While something adjustable would be nice, I haven't yet figured out how to do that while retaining simplicity and strength. Anyway, feel free to take a look and critique/make suggestions; it would be appreciated. The pictures are not exactly scaled correctly, but are close enough to convey the thought. This prototype will be made from billet aluminum (6061T6) and have .5" thick walls in the 'bell' section. 88 will test it out, so if HE doesn't break/mangle it, I'm sure it will be sufficient for the rest of the world. It would be easy/cheaper to make the same type of extension mount as a 3 piece mount together, but I think it's best to start with a solid piece. Anyway, hopefully I'll be able to make these for the people who need them. Thanks.... http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-1.jpg http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-2.jpg http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-3.jpg http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-4.jpg http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-5.jpg http://hosting.damagedreality.com/precise1/phrx-6.jpg Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airrun2002 Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 That looks great. I have a 95 is it the same thing? If so i would be up for 1 and if you need a 2nd gen tester im doing the lift over christmas and would love to try it out. Do you have any idea of cost? You are doing great things for the Pathy community. :bow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Dank Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 88 will test it out, so if HE doesn't break/mangle it, I'm sure it will be sufficient for the rest of the world..... LOL...I don't know if thats possible! jk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme2Pathfinder Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 bernard, Pretty cool looking... After its get 88's seal of approval and I get my suspension lift.. I'll be game for one... Great Job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Start pumpin' them out, man. I'll need one before the new year as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Thanks for the positive words ! The unit should fit all Pathys through 1995, but that will be confirmed with 88. I SERIOUSLY doubt I will have units by the end of the year. I still have some designing left, machining the prototype, and having 88 test it. There is no sense in my making and shipping out 10 units that don't fit or fail. Sorry, but no way around it. Heck, if these were never available before, you can wait another month for a good 1 -bounce- I don't know what the cost would be; The price of the aluminum and my time are the two real factors, but if I make them in batches it should be reasonable.... The amount of drop you want is the only real part variable. I'll probably make units in 2" 4" and 6" drops.... Anyway feedback is welcome ! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 do you have your own CNC machine or manual mill, or do you do this at work or something? just curious, cause my pops is a CNC machinist and makes parts all sorts of things for oil rigs and such. i just got hired on to a machine shop thats cutting armor plating for hummers with a laser cutting machine. i would ask them to make me a skid and a bumper and other things but i think its too early for that i really need to dust off my skills in auto cad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 8, 2004 Author Share Posted December 8, 2004 Hey BigMike. I used to own a machine shop and had both. I also had a partner; now I have neither.... Kinda a sore subject. Anyway, I may be able to do some at my new job (Tool and Die Optical Diamond Turning) as they have a full machine shop and G jobs are allowable to some degree. (Just talked to the owner and he said "its your time, just don't hurt yourself") :cool2: I also have a friend that owns his own machine shop, and I can use his equipment if I want. Ultimately, if this takes off, I'll start buying my own equipment.... Yep, I'm sure your Pop could make these and other things; the hardest part is the design and fitment. Definitely keep up on your AutoCAD !!! It pays off in the long run. I designed the piece in SolidWorks in the first 4 hours of ever using the software; it's much more user friendly! Work hard Mike, its about time they armor those hummers, and I'm sure the guys over there will appreciate your effort !! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturbed1 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 time for a n00b question from a "newbie" what is that and whats it for? *waits for someone to laugh at him* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I don't think anyone will need a 6" drop, but a 2", 3" and 4" would be practical for everybody. Disturbed1: the panhard rod attaches between the frame and the rear axle. It locates and reinforces the lateral(sideways) movement of the axle under load. After you lift your Pathy, the rod will be angled downward instead of being flat like it's supposed to be, so dropping down the frame-mounted end would be the best way to restore the rod's angle back to something approaching stock. With the panhard rod at an angle, you get axle twist and it doesn't keep the axle located properly. It ends up being off by a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disturbed1 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Have I ever told you you are my hero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 2,3 and 4"; noted 88. Makes more sense that the numbers I pulled out of my hiney.... I should have a dimensioned drawing no later than end of the weekend, and I'll send you 'blueprint' type dimensioned drawings for a rough conformation. The only modification I have thought of so far is steel sleeves for the bolt holes and/or using shoulder bolts; I'll be more specific when I've worked it through. Disturbed1, your avatar had me laughing out loud and disturbing my co-workers; WAY COOL ! BUT, don't hero worship 88 too much or he wont be able to get his swollen head inside his truck to test my parts... Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reido Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Couple of questions.... First why aluminum? I don't know a whole lot about metallurgy and such but I thought aluminum tended to fatigue easier than steel. Also steel is likely cheaper than aluminum, and since weight is not critical here why not use steel? Second, if stock angle can be restored to the panhard rod by dropping one end couldn't it also be done by raising the other end instead. Would this be better since you wouldn't have a chunk of metal hanging down to get hung up on, or would there be clearance issues with the underbody and the mount on the axle? Keep up the good work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 Good questions Reido. First, aluminum is much easier to work with, and any on site installment mods required by 88 on the prototype can be done with a file/dremmel easily. Second, aluminum doesn't rust. Third, a steel unit would require several different pieces welded together, and I'm not all that good a welder yet. Fourth, steel is cheaper, but the loss in workability and the increased labor/tooling for manufacture would drive the price higher than just purchasing aluminum stock. Aluminum does fatigue more rapidly, but remember that fatigue happens mainly when forces are sufficient to stress/bend the material. If you look at your stock PHRM, you will notice that it is not the most impressive unit. 3/16 steel at best, stamped and folded (which weakens the metal) and not even welded in the rear. My initial guesstimate of .5" thick walls for the 'bell' end should provide equal stiffness. I have yet to do calculations from the machinist hand book, or have an engineer do stress analysis but I'm fairly certain thats roughly comparable. In addition, all fillets (internal edges) will be radiused; sharp edges (welds included) are the weak point. The PHRM is not the only thing holding the rear axle in place, it merely seems to be the stabilizing./aligning bar so the forces should not be excessive, and as I mentioned before, the addition of steel hole inserts and/or shoulder bolts will negate slop and possible wear of the immediate through hole area. I have worked with a few engineers from Boeing and seen/had described the wing spar and strut assemblies, all of which are aluminum, 6061T6 mainly. If you saw these wing components and considered the weight of the plane/cargo and thrust from the engines you would probably never fly again. I cant even help but watch the wings when aloft.... As for the clearance issue, true, if your tire dropped straight off a rock and there was another directly under the PHRM you could tag it, but it is considerably higher and not much farther rear than the rear diff, so there are a few other things that would hang up and take abuse first. Besides, we try not to do that Technically, you could raise up the axle mount side but there are several more immediate issues. If you have significant articluation it is possible that you have interference with the pan or something else. Also, standing up like that you create a moment arm (as opposed to a rigid mount) that creates significantly more force on the entire system. If you were to significantly articulate the rear axle, the sine error would have the effect of pushing/pulling the rear axle laterally, doing god knows what but I'm sure increased bushing wear would be a result. This still occurs somewhat if you drop the pan side mount, but not as much, and the Nissan engineers designed it to be that way so I'm loathe to second guess them. Also, VERY importantly, there is only one bolt on the axle to mount off of which would create a pivot point, where as on the pan side, there is a bracket directly off of the frame that has two staggered bolt holes existing, and could be drilled for more/different bolt patterns making manufacturing far more simple. Lastly, 88's reply was "Holy Cow, that looks BEEFY !!", and didn't whimper or whine when I suggested aluminum. Like I said before, if he doesn't mangle it, it's a proven product Thanks much for the critical questions Reido. This is still in the prototype stage, and why I started this thread. I WANT critical questions !! I have obviously spent a lot of time working on this, but I can miss something as easy as the next person. What I want to do is create a good product, which is why I'm not just whipping something out.... Parts I make have my 'name' on them which means there is a standard to hold. Besides, I have my arrogant login name to live up to Examine my logic and methods; find any errors you can think of and let me know ! This is just the start of the products; more to come !! Thanks all Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 ...Besides, I have my arrogant login name to live up to. Sounds like you know what you're doing. I don't plan on doing a body lift, but when I put a 3" one on my old YJ, the shifters were too low. I ended up using a couple rod couplings and some all-thread to raise 'em back up to a useable height. Once the PHRM project is complete, maybe the current and future body lift fellers could benefit from transfer case/trans. shifter extension kits designed to thread on the existing shifters for 2" and 3" lifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaritimeMan Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Precise, I think as an Engineer, I might be the only one not thoughly confused with your explination . Well put , you have done your homework -study- , and from your analysis, it should work fine. It you happen across a second proto type, you know I'm right down the road to do some testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Thank you for the compliments, and no, I'm not getting a swelled head. One other thing I had thoughts about was dissimilar metal corrosion/reactions...steel on aluminum doesn't go well unless it's stainless steel. We might have to think about that. Raising the axle mount is impractical for one, unstable for two. Not enough stock bracketry there to support a raised mount. That and the moment arm theory Bernard talked about... I seriously doubt anyone will be able to drop the PHRM on a rock. It's almost directly above the axle, pretty high up there, and the gas tank skidplate is also right beside there. The worst you could really do is back up into something and get hung up on it, but that'd probably happen even in stock form in the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Disturbed1, That is one of the coolest avatars I've seen in awhile. made me laugh. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reido Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Thanks for the answer Bernard (more than I expected which is cool). Makes sense now though. And about the aircraft stuff: between some of my engineering classes and work at a wind tunnel here on campus at UW I've become all too aware of how close the engineers are cutting it on the planes to keep them aloft and strong enough. Probably better not to think of these things when flying though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Well, kind of an update, evolution, and reality check. I thought of a different design.... Easier, cheaper, steel, possibly adjustable.... I also looked up the price of stock today, and it would be $40-$45 in material alone for a 4" drop for the prototype in aluminum.... Thats more than I thought.... I will work up some drawings this weekend. While the new design could still be produced as a product, I believe I can show you how to make on your own with little more than a hand drill (drill press, welder and/or lathe would helpfull), some steel, hardware, spacers, and a ruler.... LOL I'll update with drawings soon. Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardoni Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 and it would be $40-$45 in material alone for a 4" drop for the prototype in aluminum.... I imagine you've already thought of this, but we have these metal "shorts" outfits up here. All kinds of stock, and usually quite a bit cheaper than the usual commercial sources. Of course we've also got Boeing surplus- so if you decide titanium is the way to go I can get you billets. -gardoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbreitwieser Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 I am Captian overkill, and I for one believe that we need a titanium frame option to match! *ducks* Either way, I think you are doing an awesome job. Critical thinking ensures the result of your hard work will be a really useful product! Keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norcaljoe Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Well i thought I would bring this back to the front of the boards and try to find out what the result was. Did you finish the new design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 I don't think he ever got around to it, but I made my own. BEFORE: AFTER: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repack Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I am NOT trying to bash your idea. I think that the design is great. I just think that if you want your idea to grow, you should look at steel and learning how to weld. Steel would enable you to expand your ideas to other parts like armor. Long term, I think that Al will lead to much higher costs and limit you options when it comes to what else you can do. I agree with Reido about steel vs aluminum. Fatigue does not occur only at bending. I have a fair amount of knowledge when it comes to bicycle frame engineering. Aluminum frames are incredibly stiff b/c they need to be. Any amount of flex in AL leads to fatigue and cracking. Even though AL has a lower molecular weight then Ti, Titanium frames weigh less because Ti is incredibly fatugue resistant. More so then steel by a wide margin. Is that mount going to be CNC'd? I know that is major $. Good luck with your ideas. I graduate college in December and one of my first purchases will be a welder. I have a couple of friends who are willing to teach me. I figure that a cheap welder from Harbor Freight and the rest of the needed gear / material will still cost me less $ then buying the parts that I want to weld. (rocksliders, armor, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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