Simon Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 They actually aren't THAT expensive, and well worth it, to ensure you can use your winch safely. See this link... http://auto.sears.com/HIDDEN-HITCH-WINCH-A...oductId=2008258 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 (edited) Alright. I realize folks are being helpful - I am not blind. Maybe stupid....That Warn Hitch Insert from GrimGreg's post looks to be quite expensive Warn hitch mount was developed for 2-3 times more powerful winches (6000..9000 lb) than yours. For 3000 lb (6000 max with pulley block) you can build a homemade copy of this setup (lightweight and not so strong). Also, #10 AWG wire is absolute mimimum you need to power up your winch. Typical 3000 lb winch eats up to 35-40 amperes from the 12V battery. Thin wire creates two main problems: 1. It will overheat (and melts all around) under high current; 2. Large voltage drop across long (5-6 meters) thin wire folows to significant drop of winch power. Look at factory wires diameter on your winch. You need the same. About a fuse - you need 80..100A "slow-blow" fuse for this setup. Have a spare (or two) in a tool box. Edited September 16, 2009 by Terrano1992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nytrosfinder Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 I PERSONALLY want to see a video of it... see if it works/breaks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share Posted September 16, 2009 We will never know if the "Hitch Winch" would have worked or not - 'cause it is defunct. The "Mounting Plate" is connected to the "Mounting Base" by two hardened steel bolts (HDW 9.8 on the bolts)., so ultimately the winch is held in place by two bolts. How many bolts hold anyone else's 3,000 lb winch to the plate ? Assuming anyone of you has a 3,000 lb winch.... I don't "off road" so I didn't need a big one. The Sears Plate welded to a 2 inch bar is $100 (after taxes). I think I will try to make one. Harbor Freight sells the bars for $20. We have a metal recycling place in town where I could get a piece of ¼ steel plate - bolt and/or weld it to the bar. DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimGreg Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 That Warn Hitch Insert from GrimGreg's post looks to be quite expensive and I would use a winch maybe onceevery five years. I just bought it because it was on sale and I am obsessive compulsive. DoctorBill I was just pointing out a safer mounting method using your hitch, and pointing to a mass market product readilly available. As it looks like you are going to make your own homemade now, that is probably the direction I would go myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted September 16, 2009 Share Posted September 16, 2009 Just be careful of the lead paint on it... Your second attempt design sounds much better, BTW. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) Just doing some homework on Hitch Plates designed to mount a winch on a 2 inch bar: The Warn MultiMount receiver mentioned by GrimGreg in Post #2 on this Thread - The Warn Multi-Mount is for a 2" receiver. The price shipped to your door is 329.68. Nick Hartman . . . . . His E-Mail Address United Web Sales (800)337-9005 ex 3222 Mon - Fri 7 am to 4 pm PST The Sears one mentioned by Simon in Post #26 on this thread - HIDDEN HITCH® WINCH ADAPTER $89.99 plus shipping and Tax. Harbor Freight sells one also (must mail order it) - 9000 lb Receiver for Winch- 2 inch bar ........$40 plus shipping and Tax The local store has them in stock here in Spokane, WA They also sell a 2 inch bar "receiver" for a Vise ! Hitch Mount Vise Plate ........$20 plus shipping & Tax Just FYI. Am going to buy the Harbor Freight one for $40 locally today. DoctorBill PS - here it is...(9-18-09) Edited September 18, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Well I'm way ahead of you...I made a removeable recvier winch mount in my metals one class using some angle iron and a 2 boxed pipe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosSaint Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 (edited) *kicks hornets' nest and steps back... I was curious so I whipped this up in about 10 mins and this is my evaluation of your original system. I think it would work well and I think it would be safe and these are my reasons why... Your 1/8" steel plate would have held up fine if used within the limits of the winch - 3,000 lb load with a factor of safety of 2.22 (FOS generated by simulation program) which means you could double your load safely without material yielding (assuming that the plate was in pure tension - along the axis of the tensile force). Not to mention that yielding doesn't imply failure by any means - it is when the metal plastically deforms i.e. doesn't bounce back to the original form. Also, this doesn't take into consideration the frictional holding forces from the tops of the bolts and the surfaces of the nuts. According to my model, the plate would have displaced 0.00034208" under that load. I used a plain carbon steel as a general material not knowing what material you have. It has a yield strength of 32000 psi, elastic modulus of 3.0463e+007, and Poisson's ratio of .028 This is a model of how the plate will react under a load of 3000lbs in tension (the tears are scaled - 3801.94 for all generated models). I distributed the forces equally over the surface areas of each hole. .5' holes and 5/16" holes per the manufacturer. Below is displacement based on the applied force. I also estimated some of the dimensions, but it's pretty close to what you have (and don't criticize me on GD&T practices lol). and this is an "as is" of your plate loaded at 3000lbs... Red and yellow indicate deformation and stress concentrations, blue is under yield (aka safe) limit. The bolts wouldn't have sheared. Period. 1/2" grade 8 bolts are good till 17,867.8 lbs and a grade 8 5/16" are good till 6979.6 lbs. Not to mention that the shear load is distributed over two 1/2" bolts top side and bottom side on one end and on the other end it's distributed over four 5/16"bolts top side and bottom side of the bolt. The hitch is designed with a ridiculous factor of safety... imagine being the engineer that signed off on a hitch system that failed catastrophically and allowed someones 24' boat to freely roll along on the interstate. The only issue I could see with the hitch is if you were pulling at an extreme angle. If you really want to know you systems capabilities, mail all the pieces to me and I'll load the whole set up till failure in a tensile tester. I have access to a 120 kip tensile testing machine which should do the trick, or at least come close. If you need to replace your cable after 8 or 10 heavy loadings, then you're either misusing or not maintaining your hardware - are steel cables on an elevator replaced after 10 uses? or suspension bridge cables? The problem is wear and oxidation... exposed steel will rust (obviously) and compromise its strength; the other issue is getting grit and dirt wedged in the rope, strap, or steel braid. When the cable is slack there is room for grit to get in between the twines of steel or nylon. When you apply a large tensile load the surrounding twines squeeze the crap out of the grit. Consequently, the grit severs the small twines causing fraying - in nylon, or considerable wear when cyclically loaded in steel braided cable. Think about how much wear that causes - 30' or 100' of rope/ braided steel leaves a lot of room for crap to get in there. ... using Solidworks 2008 COSMOS Express - Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets Edited September 19, 2009 by ChaosSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSlowReliable Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 The bolts wouldn't have sheared. Period. 1/2" grade 8 bolts are good till 17,867.8 lbs and a grade 8 5/16" are good till 6979.6 lbs. Not to mention that the shear load is distributed over two 1/2" bolts top side and bottom side on one end and on the other end it's distributed over four 5/16"bolts top side and bottom side of the bolt. The hitch is designed with a ridiculous factor of safety... imagine being the engineer that signed off on a hitch system that failed catastrophically and allowed someones 24' boat to freely roll along on the interstate. The only issue I could see with the hitch is if you were pulling at an extreme angle. If you really want to know you systems capabilities, mail all the pieces to me and I'll load the whole set up till failure in a tensile tester. I have access to a 120 kip tensile testing machine which should do the trick, or at least come close. If you need to replace your cable after 8 or 10 heavy loadings, then you're either misusing or not maintaining your hardware - are steel cables on an elevator replaced after 10 uses? or suspension bridge cables? The problem is wear and oxidation... exposed steel will rust (obviously) and compromise its strength; the other issue is getting grit and dirt wedged in the rope, strap, or steel braid. When the cable is slack there is room for grit to get in between the twines of steel or nylon. When you apply a large tensile load the surrounding twines squeeze the crap out of the grit. Consequently, the grit severs the small twines causing fraying - in nylon, or considerable wear when cyclically loaded in steel braided cable. Think about how much wear that causes - 30' or 100' of rope/ braided steel leaves a lot of room for crap to get in there. ... using Solidworks 2008 COSMOS Express - Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets We were not contesting the strength of those bolts, we were saying the bolts on the winch structure, the small black ones. Your tests are only valid under perfect conditions, things fail unexpectedly all the time. The steel could have a weak spot or be weakened or oxidized. I have seen, and heard horror stories of chains, ropes, wires, and HITCH BALLS breaking from use that they were rated to take. A guy from my home town lost the entire right side of his facial structure because he was hit with a snapping chain that was rated for 20k pulling force while pulling out a stump. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, just because the metal of each object can hold the force by itself, doesn't mean they will hold TOGETHER, a weld could break, a link could snap, a joint could slip....and so on Hitches are extremely unsafe, and people don't realize it....most hitches are class 3 which is only rated for 5k AT BEST, add in the pin, the frame, the welds, the ball, and somethings gotta give... I have seen hitch balls fly 100 feet from people using them as a recovery point, and im not talking about a snatch strap and goin 20mph.....just one of those cases where it only needed a little nudge, and it flies right off! Im really glad you decided to get that mount Bill, its just not worth the risk, and the last thing we wanna see is you havin fun with a new gadget and get in a bad situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 You are out in the middle of nowhere and slide off the road. You have a winch in your pathfinder on a hitch receiver like mine. There are no trees or big rocks or fence posts - the ground is flat. You have no cell phone and no one comes to your rescue. You have in the back of your pathfinder tools you brought with you. Question How do you get yourslf out of the ditch? What tools should you have in the back of the Pathfinder for a situation like this ? A big steel rod & a sledge hammer? In other words, can a winch do any good with nothing obviously available to pull on ? What do you do on flat ground ? Set up a picnic ? Just wondering. DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshellis Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 In other words, can a winch do any good with nothing obviously availableto pull on ? What do you do on flat ground ? Set up a picnic ? Just wondering. DoctorBill Ground anchor, warratah. Home made warratah setup PullPall Anchor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 PS - here it is...(9-18-09)They also sell a 2 inch bar "receiver" for a Vise ! Hey, Bill - you already have a place for a vise on your receiver! Or for a small lathe, or mill... It's just a joke. Really good setup. And you have a place to future upgrade your winch, if you'll desire to do it (because this mount designed for 6000-9000 lb winches). About a "personal winch anchor" - "Warratah" should be the best choice on more or less solid ground, because it is compact. "Pull-Pal" is strong and irreplaceable thing on swampy soil, but eats too much trunk space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 20, 2009 Author Share Posted September 20, 2009 A Google Search turns up just a ton of crap on "Warratah" and also says the spelling is "Waratah". Does anyone have one or more links to these "Land Anchors" ? This is the only useful link I could find: New Zealand Overland Rental scroll to the bottom. Just asking...probably wouldn't buy one, but would be nice info for all to see. Fencing comes up in a lot of the Google items... a brand name in Australia. Never heard of this device! Looks like one could make one easily with some 1/4 inch Iron Plate and 4 or 5 steel rods. Must be 'fun' to get back out of the ground ! DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSlowReliable Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 someone on here has a vid of them using a ground stake thing and demonstrating how it works pulling a pathy up a muddy incline......its somewhere in the members ride area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 You are out in the middle of nowhere and slide off the road. You have a winch in your pathfinder on a hitch receiver like mine. There are no trees or big rocks or fence posts - the ground is flat. You have no cell phone and no one comes to your rescue. You have in the back of your pathfinder tools you brought with you. Question How do you get yourslf out of the ditch? I air down my off road tires, lock in my manual locking hubs, dig out the tires a bit with my shovel, lay down traction mats, bless my locker, put it in 4low and exit the ditch... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted September 20, 2009 Share Posted September 20, 2009 (edited) In other words, can a winch do any good with nothing obviously availableto pull on ? What do you do on flat ground ? Set up a picnic ? There is a main, multi-functional self-recovery device - a shovel. You can dig a hole, bury your spare tire into the ground and use it as an anchor. It's a last resort, but if you have nothing better... Edited September 20, 2009 by Terrano1992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 21, 2009 Author Share Posted September 21, 2009 No one has put down here how they make an electrical connection with a Portable Winch. Not asking about the wires - I have purchased 10 gauge red wire - the frame will be ground. What connectors would you put on the back of the vehicle and on the Winch Wires ? Most Trailer Connectors are not made for the amperage the Winch would draw. I am supposing that those Yellow Wire Crimped Male & Female Plug/Socket type "Bannana" Plug" things might work. I plan on soldering a Jumper Cable type squeeze clamp on the end by the Battery so that I can leave it unconnected until just before needed. I will also put a large amp Slow Blow Fuse on the red Positive wire close to the Battery. DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) What connectors would you put on the back of the vehicle and on the Winch Wires ? Most trailer connectors are supposed for maximum load of 10-15 Amp per contact - so, don't use it... Also, i don't know banana plugs capable to withstand 50-75 Amp current. They make special (up to 175 Amperes) quick connectors for winches. For example, ComeUp WA-0102 (175 Amp continuous current, red). ComeUp WA-0101 (50 Amp continuous current) looks similar, but has smaller size and black color. 1.5-2x short-time current overload allowed for both connectors. They sold as a pair (both connector halves). And a last advice - do not try to use hitch receiver iron as a "ground". Bad contact will make your winch inoperable when you need it. Grab a piece of 10 gauge black wire, reliably connect it to a body/frame (and to a second contact of winch connector) and use it as a ground circuit. Edited September 21, 2009 by Terrano1992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoneZ Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Most trailer connectors are supposed for maximum load of 10-15 Amp per contact - so, don't use it... Also, i don't know banana plugs capable to withstand 50-75 Amp current.They make special (up to 175 Amperes) quick connectors for winches. For example, ComeUp WA-0102 (175 Amp continuous current, red). ComeUp WA-0101 (50 Amp continuous current) looks similar, but has smaller size and black color. 1.5-2x short-time current overload allowed for both connectors. They sold as a pair (both connector halves). And a last advice - do not try to use hitch receiver iron as a "ground". Bad contact will make your winch inoperable when you need it. Grab a piece of 10 gauge black wire, reliably connect it to a body/frame (and to a second contact of winch connector) and use it as a ground circuit. You can also find these in many ranges at places that sale welders. many company's use them as quick connect for the 110-120 portable mig welders that are just the feed and wire spool that plug into a stationary power box that powers all the remote welders. You will find them cheaper in the same sizes compared to the ones that say they are for winch's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted September 24, 2009 Author Share Posted September 24, 2009 (edited) I couldn't find the Comeup type connectors at a local welding shop. The guy looked at me like I was crazy.... (?) I looked "On Line" via Google and didn't find "ComeUp" anything. Who manufactures these connectors? Warn sells connectors that look similar for $32 each ! Jesus - that is a LOT for a freaking plastic connector ! Bulldog (?) sells one for $30 - never seen them for sale anywhere, tho. BullDog Winch Connector Also - I had no intention of grounding the Winch to the receiver ! I know about THAT. I will run a ground wire to the Frame - a good one. DoctorBill PS - Pathfinder working fine after the TB Change. No fluid leaks at all - not a drop ! Edited September 25, 2009 by DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 PS - Pathfinder wotking fine after the TB Change.No fluid leaks at all - not a drop ! Good. I just did mine with all the exttras also. It took a while, but was able to do it all right the first time due to reading about all your issues. Thank you Doc... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrano1992 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I looked "On Line" via Google and didn't find "ComeUp" anything.Who manufactures these connectors? I don't know specific manufacturer, but the same things are widely used as electric forklift battery connectors. Try to Google "forklift connector" and you'll find variety of links. Price will be reasonably lower, i think $12-15 for a piece of 50 Amp. Be careful - forklift spare part suppliers frequently sells those things as a halves (second half can be installed at new battery case). So, you can accidentally buy only one half of connector... Request a complete thing, not a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSlowReliable Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showthread.ph...highlight=WINCH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorBill Posted October 4, 2009 Author Share Posted October 4, 2009 I finally found the connectors shown previously by BONZ at "Standard Battery", a shop specifically selling Lead Acid Batteries here in Spokane, WA. These damned things are $14 each half (you need two!) - so they are $28 plus tax....! ...and I'd have to solder wires into them. And those are only 50 amp dudes. I will go buy the WARN connector (somewhere) for $32 with wires already on them. Or I will solder on some big Copper Lugs and connect them with bolts & Wing Nuts when I place the Winch into the Hitch. I bought BIG 70 amp fuses that look like the normal two blade fuses, but are 3 times larger. Do you think the places that sell those big fuses would sell the fuse holder - hell no ! I plan to have the Positive wire UNCONNECTED in the engine compartment and have a Jumper Cable type clamp on the end of it. I'll connect it when I use the Winch, after I have bolted the two wires together at the back of the Vehicle. Dealing with the electrical portion of having a winch has been frustrating in the extreme. At least here in Spokane. Anything to do with winches appears to be very costly. Don't mess with one unless you make a really good income. DoctorBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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