Big 3 Bailout

[94extreme]

Our government listedn to too much Dire Straights in the 80s.....Money for nothin

 

 

wouldn't that fit better to all the shrubco drunken sailor spending and tax breaks?

[GrimGreg]

wouldn't that fit better to all the shrubco drunken sailor spending and tax breaks?

 

Nah, it''ll fit with the "spreading the wealth" mentality of the idiot you voted for.

[94extreme]

what? don't dodge the facts. shrubco increased the government like none before, basically and he definitely outspent all the predecessors from last century combined. bank bailout is the biggest step towards socialism ever. how in the hell is that conservative?

[AlMac]

<insert foul language here>

 

look what the bankers did when the US bailed em out... they went on vacation to some high class resort!

 

let them go bankrupt.

 

peace

al

[zonianbrat]

Brat: If you are talking about Nardelli, he was just got fired from Home Depot like 1.5 years ago and he got paid a ton to leave then too! What a piece of garbage that guy is, he is the reason Home Depot sucks now...

And on the topic, I think that to most people "american" car means nothing to them, especially when they don't know that most of our cars and trucks are made in america now...I think some of those companies need to go under, it sucks for the people who work for them, but this is the nature of any competitive product based business, there is NO guarantee...

I think letting them tank would make them open up their eyes, use GM as an example...why have GMC and Chevy? Why have Pontiac when all the same cars are in Chevy? Keep Chevy, drop GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Hummer...maybe sell Saab, def. keep Cadillac. Why do you need 10 different companies to make the same cars? I feel like ALL american car manufacturers need to smart up on this basis (except Chrysler, they NEED to disappear!)

 

 

Yup that's the guy! Nardelli, bastage. I just do not see any of the big 3 actually going under. They will file bankruptcy and in turn get help from the government and be forced to make some restructuring decisions. For instance: Ford needs to quit spending so much money on R&D for the mustang. My god they put so many millions into that darn thing it is insane. I mean they have like 20 different variations of it. Do not get me wrong I love muscle cars and hate seeing them gradually die off but, that money could be used much more appropriately. Unfortunately alot of people will probably lose their jobs. I am not for that but let's face it there is no way we will ever let these company's totally disapear.

[5523Pathfinder]

Just read this on MSN. Thought it was interesting being that Nissan plant employees are speaking out..

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28214869

[Kittamaru]

As my entire household drives either Nissan, Toyota, or Subaru... I don't care about Ford, GM, or Chrysler... their vehicles suck anyway.

 

And only Ford has an even half-decent request, that boils down to:

 

"Put XXX Billion aside for us - if we can't manage to improve on our own, THEN we'll take what we need from it to make sure we get the job done"

 

That is a plan I can agree with... not "MOAR MONEH NOWWWWWSS!!" like GM and Chrysler are saying

 

 

 

I do agree... it's a problem... but the problem is the fatcats on top making millions upon millions... and then laying off workers to try to compensate.

 

It's like how, in PA, Ed Rendel (or Governator) is freezing the salaries of thousands of state employees to try to save money... when our legislators are one of the highest paid per citizen in the country. Our legislators cover the LEAST number of citizens for the MOST pay... a big problem. We have over 250 of the #$!&ers... California, at 3x our population, has HALF as many as we do! If we cut out 100 legislators and made them actually do some WORK... we'd save TWICE the money that's being saved by denying state workers like myself our 2.25% cost of living raise!

Edited December 15, 2008 by RedPath88

[Geoff57]

Your auto makers seem to easily get out of touch with their markets and keep making the same mistake of producing the vehicles they want to make, rather than producing vehicles the market wants to buy.

 

Geoff

Edited December 15, 2008 by Geoff57

[Kittamaru]

Your auto makers seem to easily get out of touch with their markets and keep making the same mistake of producing the vehicles they want to make, rather than producing vehicles the market wants to buy.

 

Geoff

 

Too true... The Hummer Series is proof of that o0;

[GrimGreg]

Too true... The Hummer Series is proof of that o0;

 

Nah, there are enough ghetto-fabulous types that want the H2s on 22" Dubs (sadly). If they made the damn things functnal then they wouldn't sell as many.

[tekazgtr1984]

Nah, there are enough ghetto-fabulous types that want the H2s on 22" Dubs (sadly). If they made the damn things functnal then they wouldn't sell as many.

 

Yup, the poser/wannabe/fakeass mentality in popular culture is just unstoppable... Too bad the Big 3 have catered to it so much.

[PDCCD]

Common Grim. UAW the evil empire? There are allot more socio-economic issues at play than your argument considers. I'm non union, always have been. I've had my cars keyed, been spit at, and lost jobs due to my non union status. But i'm not foolish enough to damn the political movement that brought me safer working conditions, a fair wage, child labor laws, compensation for overtime, enviormental reform, food production/distribution regulation, and several other things i take for granted dailey, based on the actions and narrow minded actions of individuals.

 

I doubt you'll reconsider your opinion regardless of any info i could share, as your beliefs are probably based strongly on theological deductions, but if you find the time, here's an article that offers a counter opinoin.

 

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=...f2-56dfc3323682

 

I don't care if an individual who lacks the formal crudentials society seems to value so highly lately (ironically enough) happens to get himself in a position where he makes even a $100 an hour (insert auto worker). Where do you think his money goes? To an offshore tax shelter or some loophole his CPA finds him? No, i'll wager not. I'll wager his money finds it's way back into his community. Back into his neighbors hands, their kids hands who work at the local grocery store or ice cream stand. It goes to income taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, highway taxes, social securtiy taxes, health insurance, blah, blah, on and on.

 

Do you wager the Corporate board who's income currently averages 300 time more than it's typical employees is finding it's way to those same places? I don't find it as likely.

There has been a concerted effort in this country since at least the 70's to undermine the working middle class. The key to a healthy society is it's middle class. When that falls, so does the country. This is a class war. When our country finally slides back into the third world while China and India build a viable middle class capable of purchasing the products their producing, they will no longer need our small 300 million population to subsidize their growth. We are sheep being fleeced. It will get much colder. Stop being jelouse of your neihbors. Stop the self defeat. There is warmth in numbers.

 

Commie out!

Edited December 16, 2008 by PDCCD

[94extreme]

I think letting them tank would make them open up their eyes, use GM as an example...why have GMC and Chevy? Why have Pontiac when all the same cars are in Chevy? Keep Chevy, drop GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Hummer...maybe sell Saab, def.

 

saab = ford not gm

[Simon]

Nope....Saab= GM. That's why you see Saturn Saab Isuzu dealers

[GrimGreg]

Yep, SAAB is a GM company.

 

As for the union PD, yeah they did good things in the past, but they are obsolete. There are enough labor laws on the books, as well as government agencies (OHSA and such) that negate the need for unions in any section of the workforce these days. UAW is the one putting the nails in the coffin of the "American" car manufacturers. Of course all companies are feeling a pinch, but the Nissan, Honda, Toyota, etc. plants aren't saying they will go bankrupt, and are working with their employees to reduce labor hours effectively to keep both the company AND the employee financially able in the slow times. The UAW has created so much fat, and gotten so used to that fat that it is like trying to make a heroin addict quit cold turkey.

[Dowser]

I got his in the mail today and thought this was Fitting.

 

[tekazgtr1984]

That's priceless! It can mean two different things...

If the foreign automakers can get through these tough times, the Big 3 should have no problem.

It was made plain as day that the whole 'bailout' solution is usless when Wall St. and its greedy, corrupt douchenozzles received it; why would this be any different for the automotive industry?

[PDCCD]

Yep, SAAB is a GM company.

 

As for the union PD, yeah they did good things in the past, but they are obsolete. There are enough labor laws on the books, as well as government agencies (OHSA and such) that negate the need for unions in any section of the workforce these days. UAW is the one putting the nails in the coffin of the "American" car manufacturers. Of course all companies are feeling a pinch, but the Nissan, Honda, Toyota, etc. plants aren't saying they will go bankrupt, and are working with their employees to reduce labor hours effectively to keep both the company AND the employee financially able in the slow times. The UAW has created so much fat, and gotten so used to that fat that it is like trying to make a heroin addict quit cold turkey.

 

Like i said bud, read the article i linked please. They're trying to adapt. But they've learned, the more they give, the more they're asked to give the next time, and they're always seems to be a next time, till there's nothing left to give. But i can guarantee you, that as far as labor laws specifically, we are moving back words already. As labor movements/unions have slowly had they're memberships eroded, due both to they're inability to adapt, as well as people not appreciating what they're grandfathers have done for them and taking what they have been born with for granted, corporations and even the government have slowly and methodically moved to neuter these laws. Underfunding inspection agencies and lengthy costly litigation have become effective tools of evasion used. You can read all day about companies like Walmart and McDonalds repeatedly violating child labor, labor, and Osha laws.

 

There needs to be a unified effective group of working class people to represent themselves. We have no power in limited numbers. Divide and conquer. Corporate lobbies are writing and re-writing laws daily. We are already sliding back-words, and as long as we continue to look for reasons to dislike each other and fail to work together realizing we all want the same things (safety, work, provide for our kids, food, shelter...) and relinquish the greed we are all guilty of perpetrating , then we will inevitably return to the third world, while the third world takes the path we've already trod. Contrary to the educations that most of us received in public school, the working class of this country never had representation in government prior to the labor movement, and we are losing that representation daily. This has been a union busting presidency, and the destruction of the last union with any major power will be a huge feather in the cap of these antagonists. That's why they've been so un-cooperative when they happily threw hundreds of billions to wall street. No unions there...

 

Honestly, i can back up what i'm saying with statistics and facts, and even more with personal experience, things that would make most people sick i've had employers pull, and still have pull, and i work for the man. It just take me forever to type, and i doubt anyone is even reading.

The decay is spreading. This is happening. I don't know if we can stop the cycle, it's so old it's almost inevitable.

 

 

Pete

[Precise1]

relinquish the greed we are all guilty of perpetrating

I will as soon as you have...

 

Seriously, that's the 'new' American way. The majority of people have somehow convinced themselves (or each other) that pulling scams, misrepresentation, taking advantage of people, standing on the backs of others, etc are actually shrewd business dealings, being in the right place at the right time, seizing opportunities, good management, etc with no shame of outrageous profits or any hardships it creates for others. The day of 'fair deal' and 'honest profit' is about gone.

 

B

[ColinBen]

From an outsiders view.

If the Government needs to help the Auto industry, then instead of giving the money to the companies and then allowing the shareholders to be saved (who really have taken a gamble with their money), perhaps as a means of stimulating sales of US produced Auto's, they spend the money giving rebates to purchasers, in effect reducing the price to Taxpayers.

This means that the "man in the street" benefits, not the wealthy who will survive anyway.

 

Cheers,

[Simon]

From an outsiders view.

If the Government needs to help the Auto industry, then instead of giving the money to the companies and then allowing the shareholders to be saved (who really have taken a gamble with their money), perhaps as a means of stimulating sales of US produced Auto's, they spend the money giving rebates to purchasers, in effect reducing the price to Taxpayers.

This means that the "man in the street" benefits, not the wealthy who will survive anyway.

 

Cheers,

That's the best idea. Keeps people employed, and everyone benefits.

[Kingman]

From an outsiders view.

If the Government needs to help the Auto industry, then instead of giving the money to the companies and then allowing the shareholders to be saved (who really have taken a gamble with their money), perhaps as a means of stimulating sales of US produced Auto's, they spend the money giving rebates to purchasers, in effect reducing the price to Taxpayers.

This means that the "man in the street" benefits, not the wealthy who will survive anyway.

 

Cheers,

 

Dude, that's awesome

 

I'm not really all that surprised though, that this idea never showed up in Congress...

[Precise1]

perhaps as a means of stimulating sales of US produced Auto's, they spend the money giving rebates to purchasers

 

What, give $ to the people? Instead of the rich? WTF?? That's screwy!!

 

Seriously, it doesn't make sense, since you would have to buy generally crappy American cars to get the rebate and it is proven that a lot of people are smarter than that. So why should my tax $ go to the neighbor who bought a new Ford? Shouldn't he pay me for buying a used Nissan and not promoting the polluting heavy industry? Too many sides to the coin...

 

It's like the stupid 'economic stimulus' package. I pay 4x the tax of someone making 1/2 my wage. Logical? NO!! Ok, so everyone gets $600 back and $300 for each kid up to 4.

I get $600 back and the single girl at work that just squirted out the 4th larva gets $1800 back, regardless that she is on food stamps, assisted housing, etc and probably pays 1/10th the taxes I do, if any!! WTF??

 

I use these examples as how 'government rebates' are a joke. The $ is taken disproportionately and distributed the same.

 

There should be no bail out. The companies will reform, support industries will bear the weather and adapt. People will get laid off. Sorry about that, go get another job, just like I would have to do.

Sound cold? Maybe.

Sound realistic? Yes.

Will it produce stronger companies? Definitely.

Will it not take $ out of my pocket to help rich people who will never help me? Yes.

Is it not the 'free market' system these companies manipulated for profit? Yes.

Why would anyone support this unless they profited? I don't know, but that's the root of the problem, isn't it??

 

B

[PDCCD]

What, give $ to the people? Instead of the rich? WTF?? That's screwy!!

 

Seriously, it doesn't make sense, since you would have to buy generally crappy American cars to get the rebate and it is proven that a lot of people are smarter than that. So why should my tax $ go to the neighbor who bought a new Ford? Shouldn't he pay me for buying a used Nissan and not promoting the polluting heavy industry? Too many sides to the coin...

 

It's like the stupid 'economic stimulus' package. I pay 4x the tax of someone making 1/2 my wage. Logical? NO!! Ok, so everyone gets $600 back and $300 for each kid up to 4.

I get $600 back and the single girl at work that just squirted out the 4th larva gets $1800 back, regardless that she is on food stamps, assisted housing, etc and probably pays 1/10th the taxes I do, if any!! WTF??

 

I use these examples as how 'government rebates' are a joke. The $ is taken disproportionately and distributed the same.

 

There should be no bail out. The companies will reform, support industries will bear the weather and adapt. People will get laid off. Sorry about that, go get another job, just like I would have to do.

Sound cold? Maybe.

Sound realistic? Yes.

Will it produce stronger companies? Definitely.

Will it not take $ out of my pocket to help rich people who will never help me? Yes.

Is it not the 'free market' system these companies manipulated for profit? Yes.

Why would anyone support this unless they profited? I don't know, but that's the root of the problem, isn't it??

 

B

 

Emotionally B, i can't argue. I can't tell you how often i've gone on rants about how i pay more taxes than people with 6 kids and they use everything more than i do. How all the guys i work with busted my balls for not getting into the housing market 3 years ago, and now i've got to pay their mortgages, and worse, i helped buy banks, but i still don't have my own home, and if we continue to artificially keep interest rates down, the prices won't correct so i can afford one.

But this is even bigger B, even bigger than all that. This country is approaching bankruptcy. Not just moral as you mentioned above, but fiscal. We are not generating new revenue. We are spending what's left of old money. Our money is only worth what we, and the world markets, believe it's worth. It's simply a religion. As empty as the others. We have essentially exported our middle class. The cycle of a healthy economy has been broken. Incomes, adjusted for inflation, are lower than they were in the 70's. For the first time since the depression, real estate has slid backwards. For the first in the countries history, economist project this generation will be financially worse off than their parents. Average individual savings are at negative numbers, first time since the depression. The US dollar is falling. This isn't typical stuff here guys. This is something new and very big, financially speaking. Do you think they'll let us know when they can't flog this horse anymore? I've tried to illustrate the cycle i'm talking about here before, but i don't know how. I'll try again.

Healthy economy for most:

 

Prior to industrial revolution in this country:

 

Agriculture generated goods(farms)>Merchants payed farmers for goods>population purchased goods >agriculture generated goods

Money stayed within the "community"

 

After industrial revolution:

 

Factories employed people to make goods>retailers purchased goods>people purchased goods with money they made at factory>people work at factories making goods.

Money stayed within the "community"

 

After NAFTA/Globalization:

Factories leave community>retailers purchase goods>people purchase goods with credit

Money has left the "community" and as the huge trade deficits indicate, it isn't coming back. This is an unsustainable cycle for the initial "community". Once the new "community" builds a middle class on the old's capital, the old is obsolete. Especially if the new middle class is Soooooooo much larger.

 

The only people that benefit from "globalization" is the 2% of the population that controls half of the worlds wealth. They have no boundaries, no limitations, no country.

 

My point, to summarize, is where do these people get new jobs B? Do they do what rubbermaid workers did after their company was boycotted by walmart and driven to bankruptcy? After chinese industrialists purchased the name and equipment and exported it all back to the homeland, the only jobs left in the area were at a walmart distribution center making half the money with no health insurance. Where do they get health insurance? Like a majority of walmart employees (the largest private employer in the US) they get them from you and me, the taxpayers.

 

Now look what you did, it's past my bedtime, i've got to be up in six hours to go to work. There's banks i need to finance...

 

and i didn't even get to my dissertation on the face of modern slavery. lucky you.

Edited December 17, 2008 by PDCCD

[GrimGreg]

I want to see the bubble burst and watch our materialistic society eat it's self.