RedPath88 Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ok so I have kept quiet on the boards about my dealings with Phil of _&P Performance (I omit the L because as I understand Lee is no longer part of the company) Now I have the need to make it public so.. for the last seven months I have been waiting on my Stage3 Kit (with optional IA bushings) and this past Wednesday the parts finally arrived. My patience seemed to have paid off after all.. or did it? I am not a welder, I have no skills but do plan on learning how. As such I am no authority on quality welds, but since I am not comfortable with what I see here, I am tossing this out to all of you for opinions. I want to be sure that this is a quality built part BEFORE I put it on my truck, because if it is not, then it not only puts my safety at risk, but it also puts my boy's (my soon to be ten year old twins) at risk. The pics can be found here: RedPath88 - Photobucket I ask that you take a few to look through them and give me your 100% honest opinions on what you see in the photo's. You will also see how one bolt does not go all the way through, if a little force is applied it will, but the alginment of the hole on the "Double Shear" plate appears to be off a little. And Phil, if you are reading this, I would have tried to contact you first but for the past seven months you have been ignoring my calls and my voice and electronic messages... so what can I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aries247 Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 i wouldn't install those red. i am by no means a certified welder but i think i could do better welds than that. almost like it was a rush job. just being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 (edited) well, per our conversation, dave showed the pics to alan (his bro who does all our welding), and he said the metal wasn't heated up enough, and put under enough stress, yes, those welds could definitely break. you have 2 boys, i wouldn't risk it. alan said you could have it re-welded, but apparently when he saw the pics he was shocked. he thought a first timer did those welds. and he was also shocked by the shoddy edges, lack of any smoothing of the metals..... alan also said, if you take it to a good welder, he can grind the welds down, re-weld and make them strong, as they should be. Edited June 10, 2007 by Slick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 (edited) I mostly agree with what Slicks friend said. Looks like someone who knows how to weld but doesn't do a very good job used a lil welder like a 140amp instead of a real/good welder. You could have the welds ground out and rewelded by someone with a commercial grade welder, but then you'll burn up the grease in the bearings and have no way of cleaning and repacking them. For the limited amount of movement these bearing see you would probably be better off doing it this way for the sake of keeping you, your kids and anyone else around you safe. I'm sure he uses a jig to weld these on. So when you take it to a welder to have it redone you should have him only grind the weld on one side flat then weld over it before touching the other side. Don't have him grind the welds out completely because you want it to stay true and the heat from a good welder will pull/draw with quite a bit of force if it has a chance. Also you may be able to save some grease if you tilt the CL to an angle that allows you to have the sleeve and bearings sitting in water on one side. You could use a steel cake pan for this. As for the double shear holes lining up. If you can force the bolt thru it'll be good. Double shear on these is overkill anyway. Phil if you're reading this my advice to you would be to recall any CL's you've sold with similar welds from the HH140 before someone gets hurt when an end comes apart at 70mph on the way home from a trail run. You need to remember how important it is to put good welds on anything you sell. The DS IA's, PA's and IA braces are one thing, but when you put weak unfinished welds on the centerlinks you are just asking for bad things to happen. I see at best 5-10% penetration on the tack weld in this pic. Edited June 10, 2007 by TrailChaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Strange that the welds on the Idler arm, and the IA brace look fine, but the ones on the CL are so shoddy. I wouldn't install that either. I can't believe the cuts on the IA brace. Looks like someone chewed that piece. Ugly stuff, though, I guess it's a function over form piece. That said, I hope they put more care into the function, than they did on the form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezzy Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Wow, I hope to hell that's a one time deal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 (edited) Wow, I hope to hell that's a one time deal... Do not install that centerlink! I don't know who welded that but I would not trust it at all. Tell ya what, if you send me that CL I will cut off those sleeves and weld new sleeves with new bearings in properly. Give me $50 for the materials and I'll fix it for you. If you decide not to use it I would chop the CL in half to ensure that no one ever uses it. Edited June 10, 2007 by hoohaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nissandoms47 Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Wow that so doesnt look like Phils good quality that i've seen from him. We bought one of our good friends an L&P stage 3 kit back in October and they were very good welds. That steering has since been to Moab and held up flawlessly. Maybe compare those pictures to the pictures in the for sale ad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 You won't ever get a centerlink with welds looking like that from me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 ^^^ looks like someone has been practicing. red, i am rather shocked.. p's work seemed very good in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeV Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) WOW JB Weld & paint Hoohaa You can weld for me anytime! Edited June 11, 2007 by MikeVanceinWI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Bryan, is that weld from your Ready Welder? Looks good, looks good and hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPath88 Posted June 12, 2007 Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 Phil and I are in talks to work this out and for the time being I am going to lock this thread in good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPath88 Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 I closed this thread a month ago as a showing of good faith towards Phils willingness to contact me and "appearance" to want to work it out. Phil, you asking me to let you know what I wanted done, what parts I felt needed replaced and I asked only for the CL to be replaced. You also told me that you would "get on it". That was a month ago, ten days later I sent a PM requesting some form of update. After that I called and left you a couple voice messages requesting the same and letting you know that you had a PM from me. Last weekend or earlier this week I called and left a message on your machine stating that if you did not contact me by the 11th that I would reopen this thread. I left another one last night. I really have tried to resolve this situation without going public , but this seems to be the only way that I can get you to respond. Phil, it is now the 12th and I have still heard nothing from you, in fact you have not even read the PM that I sent you on the 21st of last month. So when are you planning on replacing this CL or are you leaving me with a part that is, by the opinion of the members of this board (and your prospective customers) of poor quality and unsafe to install or use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 Sorry to hear you're still going through this Red.... Hopefully Phil is just busy, and not on hiatus again. I just want to mention, that I'm sure Phil has had quite a few boards on which he's had to make good on a bunch of previously failed promises. I doubt this simply happened on NPORA. Though, a month, with no contact is a long time. Good luck with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoohaa Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Bryan, is that weld from your Ready Welder? Looks good, looks good and hot. Nah, that weld was done with a MillerMatic 251. It had better be hot, it was done at nearly the hottest setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPath88 Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Well Phil, your not answering the phone... or I mean Cindy is no longer answering as you have NEVER personally spoken to me. You are not even checking PM's (sent the last one on June 21st and it is still unread) and nobody is responding to emails anymore. I have not seen you on the boards in a long while, but thought I would make another attempt to contact you this way, since all others attempts have gone unanswered. You told me that you would make this right, you told me that you would replace the centerlink, Cindy told me the same, she also told me that you would be working on my replacement CL "this weekend" and it would ship "next week" two and a half months ago, a month and a half ago I was once again told that you would be working on orders "this weekend." As I said in one of a several unanswered emails, the original... and unused ...CL that you sent me is ready to be sent back to you... I am willing to send it back AFTER I get a proper replacement so that you know (if the pics here do not say it loud enough) that I am not just trying to get an extra CL out of you. How about a response Phil... better yet, how about a completion of the deal we made over a year ago... of which I completed MY end of it one year ago as of the 30th of THIS month! As you know, on many occasions I have provided you with multiple ways to get a hold of me... board PM, direct email, phone and have even given you a way to reach me by phone so that YOU do not incur any long distance charges! You also have my shipping address! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLouisGod Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Phil strikes again! Sorry for your situation Red, I know how it feels, but at least you recieved a CL. Notice to all - do not deal with L&P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95shakinPF Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Yeah, sorry red! BLouis just said what I was gonna say!!! B-WARE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Phil....this begs the question. WTF Man???? I have given you more courtesy than you deserve in this situation. I have kept my nose out of your business. I knew you long before you and Lee started L&P. I was there for you during your battle with Sleep Apnea. I was there for you during your battles with depression. I have recommended your products to countless people over the past few years, but this is just inexcusable. You NEED to own up and make things right, on ALL FRONTS. If you are not in a position to make new centerlinks, then send refunds. I understand that you may be going through some difficult times, and that you may be trying to deal with some pretty serious personal stuff here. Phil, I am still your friend, if you need to talk to someone, I'm here man. But please, make this situation right. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmorgan4 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Well Phil, your not answering the phone... or I mean Cindy is no longer answering as you have NEVER personally spoken to me. You are not even checking PM's (sent the last one on June 21st and it is still unread) and nobody is responding to emails anymore. I have not seen you on the boards in a long while, but thought I would make another attempt to contact you this way, since all others attempts have gone unanswered. You told me that you would make this right, you told me that you would replace the centerlink, Cindy told me the same, she also told me that you would be working on my replacement CL "this weekend" and it would ship "next week" two and a half months ago, a month and a half ago I was once again told that you would be working on orders "this weekend." As I said in one of a several unanswered emails, the original... and unused ...CL that you sent me is ready to be sent back to you... I am willing to send it back AFTER I get a proper replacement so that you know (if the pics here do not say it loud enough) that I am not just trying to get an extra CL out of you. How about a response Phil... better yet, how about a completion of the deal we made over a year ago... of which I completed MY end of it one year ago as of the 30th of THIS month! As you know, on many occasions I have provided you with multiple ways to get a hold of me... board PM, direct email, phone and have even given you a way to reach me by phone so that YOU do not incur any long distance charges! You also have my shipping address! If I were you, I would think it's time to take it to a welder. I'd be surprised if you ever got a refund or a new CL, so you might as well get what you have fixed. I can't imagine it would be more than $40-50 if you ground down all the bad welds, and brought it in to a shop and just told them what you need welded. Bad situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLouisGod Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Agreed, just take it to a pro and improve on it. Youll never get your $$$$$$$$$$$$ back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 (edited) If you want, just ship it to me and I'll reweld it with the bearings out. No charge. PMed you the address to the Machine Shop I work in. Edited October 26, 2007 by TrailChaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Is this site really prone to deals gone bad or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Is this site really prone to deals gone bad or something? I think there are lots of great deals and dealings on here. You just don't hear about it nearly as much when stuff goes right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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