Airrun2002 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 I say no, because if we really were going to Iraq for the oil then we would be paying $1.00/gal again. I think its a case of too much power in too few peoples hands. I hate big business!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why dont the terrorist go after these ppls houses? They are the ones with the real power. My $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derogate Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 ok what ever you say sicks... i obviously wont be able to convince you just by telling you. but i have done the research, mostly on the net, and i do take everything i read with a grain of salt, so its possible i have been mislead... but the fact is that your response neither presents a good debate against my informantion, nor does it create any constructive ciritism.. as for hydrogen not exploding..... 1) hydrogen is explosive by nature, when mixed to the appropriate ratios with oxygen (which a leaking tank can easily do).... 2) ANYTHING pressurized that is flammable (like hydrogen) IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE explosive.... for hydrogen to be usefull in a combustion engine it has to be stored in a liquid state... i foget the numbers but that means it has to be highly pressurized. Its basic science guys.... Your teacher never showed you how hydrogen works in science 10???? im not all into the stupid xxxx miles to gallon conspiracy theories... im not saying theya rn't true... and im not saying they are... BUT i did say that i thought BMW has patents on a road safe hydrogen tank allowing hyrdogen combustion engines to be commercially produced for the public.... they already have a few working prototypes that are performing very well. use google... its your friend.. I DONT watch american news... ever, i hardly ever whatch any TV news. I read the paper, i search on the net. its not hard, and its fun, and im not saying that im right or wrong, im just saying do some freaking research before you shoot me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Slow down Bud. I'm not too sure what got you fired up, but I apologize if I did it. for hydrogen to be usefull in a combustion engine it has to be stored in a liquid state... i foget the numbers but that means it has to be highly pressurized. Its basic science guys.... Your teacher never showed you how hydrogen works in science 10???? I'm not a chemist or an engineer, but have had training in both so ease up on the tenth grade education stuff, eh ? No, I don't know the exact parameters for internal combustion of hydrogen, just that it is not difficult, but I do know compression happens in the cylinder, 10:1 easy. I will look up the BMW system for more information... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 *waves the white flag* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 (edited) ok what ever you say sicks... i obviously wont be able to convince you just by telling you. but i have done the research, mostly on the net, and i do take everything i read with a grain of salt, so its possible i have been mislead... but the fact is that your response neither presents a good debate against my informantion, nor does it create any constructive ciritism.. as for hydrogen not exploding..... 1) hydrogen is explosive by nature, when mixed to the appropriate ratios with oxygen (which a leaking tank can easily do).... 2) ANYTHING pressurized that is flammable (like hydrogen) IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE explosive.... for hydrogen to be usefull in a combustion engine it has to be stored in a liquid state... i foget the numbers but that means it has to be highly pressurized. Its basic science guys.... Your teacher never showed you how hydrogen works in science 10???? im not all into the stupid xxxx miles to gallon conspiracy theories... im not saying theya rn't true... and im not saying they are... BUT i did say that i thought BMW has patents on a road safe hydrogen tank allowing hyrdogen combustion engines to be commercially produced for the public.... they already have a few working prototypes that are performing very well. use google... its your friend.. I DONT watch american news... ever, i hardly ever whatch any TV news. I read the paper, i search on the net. its not hard, and its fun, and im not saying that im right or wrong, im just saying do some freaking research before you shoot me down. You would have come upon this in your search then too. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GH11Ak01.html Just a bit of light reading that touches on the oil subject. I got a little chuckle out of it in places too. A few of the guys on the forum have hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of nails to hit to. GG, P1 and Igranch are all on the ball. You are correct though all of the information is out there. You say this is just a sudden thing? Although fuel prices are, as always, indexed to rise with inflation, inflation does not seem to be what has made prices BLOW OUT over the last few years. It seemed to start when the war did, if memory serves me correctly. Your thoughts on LPG too please. I remember everyone saying how dangerous it was too. Edited August 13, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Your thoughts on LPG too please I really hardly know it at all, other than it is generally fairly easy to convert to, the power is a little less so more consumption, it burns cleaner (but not exactly clean), it is cheaper and it is not feasibly available here in the US. Hmm, wonder why ?? I see it as an intrem solution to oil 'shortages' but nothing more as the resources are similiar and it still greatly effects the environment. To me the next step is hydrogen. Burning it, not this fuel cell crap, thats the industries trying to profiteer on their systems. What do you thing the efficiency rating for electric motors are ? Not that good. Why waste the energy rather than burn it direct ? If you want to do the whole regenerative braking thing, fine, then store it, and plug it in when you get home to use or sell back to the electric companies. People with self sustaining home systems that produce extra do exactly that. Seriously, anyone who doesn't believe we have and are screwing up the very nature we depend on for life is an idiot. Time for 'clean' energy folks, as clean as we can make it. As for the safely issue of having a pressurised tank aboard, well drive mellow, pay attention and quit running into things and each other !! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Your thoughts on LPG too please I really hardly know it at all, other than it is generally fairly easy to convert to, the power is a little less so more consumption, it burns cleaner (but not exactly clean), it is cheaper and it is not feasibly available here in the US. Hmm, wonder why ?? I see it as an intrem solution to oil 'shortages' but nothing more as the resources are similiar and it still greatly effects the environment. To me the next step is hydrogen. Burning it, not this fuel cell crap, thats the industries trying to profiteer on their systems. What do you thing the efficiency rating for electric motors are ? Not that good. Why waste the energy rather than burn it direct ? If you want to do the whole regenerative braking thing, fine, then store it, and plug it in when you get home to use or sell back to the electric companies. People with self sustaining home systems that produce extra do exactly that. Seriously, anyone who doesn't believe we have and are screwing up the very nature we depend on for life is an idiot. Time for 'clean' energy folks, as clean as we can make it. As for the safely issue of having a pressurised tank aboard, well drive mellow, pay attention and quit running into things and each other !! B Do I sense passion about this topic B? I fully agree with you. I am shocked that LPG is not widely availible in the USA. WE have had it as an alternative for many many years now. With the oil prices so high it is a boom industry. Makes one think that something is going on in the US if this alternative is not seriously being looked at. Having said that, it may come as no supprise that others in the world think the USA is ruled by Israel and oil companies anyway. My flame suit is on and zipped up nice and tight! I am too scared to ask for your thoughts on your new energy bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 Unfortunately, we're a bit stuck in the US. Fuel cells are far off, hydrogen requires a bunch of fossil fuels to produce, and a huge percentage of our population has their head up their a$s driving their Hummers and Suburbans. I personally think a responsible variation is a start. Looking at better fuel economy in general (mabye diesel or something else for the biggies), hybrids, propane, hydrogen, cylinder deactivation, etc. All offer a path towards a hopefully potentential solution. Expecting that America can suddenly jump off the petroleum fountain is a dream, but hopefully weaning the country off the pump with some large scale and strategically funded projects [read: NO OIL] could be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 hydrogen requires a bunch of fossil fuels to produce No. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted August 13, 2005 Share Posted August 13, 2005 hydrogen requires a bunch of fossil fuels to produce No. B Sorry, I believe my brain was confusing natural gas for the friendly combustible hydrogen. Flog me as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycxice13 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Not the war, it's OPEC (oil producing exporting countries) They control the market of oil exclusively. When they cut production and shipping to the US the prices go up. SUpply and Demand and they have all the chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derogate Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 i wish someone *really* knew what they where talking about... everything i know (i can't speak for all of you, but im pretty sure it holds true aswell) is what we've heard, read, or seen elsewhere and none of us *actually* KNOW for a fact, first hand, why it is the way it is. and it doesn't seem like the media wants to let us know any time soon, since most of what they say is either conflicting or just can't be the sole reason. perhaps thats just it... there is no one reason gas is so expensive, its just a compilation of a crap-load of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycxice13 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 ITS OPEC my god man. They have soul control over oil imports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 ITS OPEC my god man. They have soul control over oil imports. How then was Mobil able to make record profits of US$7.6 billion last quarter? Not last year, not year to date but the last 12 weeks. Open your eyes and look around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardwaretoad Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 More like this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 More like this... Sad but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPath88 Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 More like this... Sad but true. Yeah :sniff: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 LPG itself is widely available in the US, many RV's, campers, boats, BBQ's etc use it in large quantities. Problem is, the availability of LPG retrofit kits in the US is low, plus the price is high, and it requires professional installation most of the time. LPG power output levels are also lower than petroleum, about 10% lower...a major detraction for most people. When it comes right down to it, it's cheaper to simply keep running the existing engine on petroleum, especially if it's on an older vehicle with low reasle value. You'll never get the cost of conversion back out of the vehicle if you sell it later, either. I'm not saying it's not a viable alternative, I'm just saying that's why it's not a big deal in the US right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 LPG itself is widely available in the US, many RV's, campers, boats, BBQ's etc use it in large quantities. Problem is, the availability of LPG retrofit kits in the US is low, plus the price is high, and it requires professional installation most of the time. LPG power output levels are also lower than petroleum, about 10% lower...a major detraction for most people. When it comes right down to it, it's cheaper to simply keep running the existing engine on petroleum, especially if it's on an older vehicle with low reasle value. You'll never get the cost of conversion back out of the vehicle if you sell it later, either. I'm not saying it's not a viable alternative, I'm just saying that's why it's not a big deal in the US right now. Yes you have a few things hampering the LPG idea. LPG must be installed be licenced people and is a retro fit here too, though Ford just released a model that has LPG as an alternative from the factory (no petrol tank at all). The idea of fitting LPG is not to be able to claim it back when the car is sold but to save money on operating costs while you own it. LPG here is nearly 1/4 the price of petrol at the moment. It is true that LPG, when ran on a dual fuel car (petrol and gas), is underpowered compared to petrol. A car running on straight gas though, the opposite happens. It's all in the tuning. Tune a car for straight gas and you can't drive it on petrol. Either way, it is still far more cost effective and way less polluting to run on LPG than on petrol here. From memory, the pay off period for the installation of LPG is about 4 years. But given the current fuel prices that may be down to 2 years. Most people keep their cars , on average, for 10 years here in OZ. That gives you at least 6 years of very cheap fuel costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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