Dilemma

[TXPower]

All right gentlemen, I have a dilemma and want advice. I've had my 93 Pathy since 2008, used it on deer lease for about 3 years and then parked it behind my house due to it needing stuff, it was running rough needs a bunch of front end work and at least synchros in the MT. The interior is trashed, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, dash, center console etc, all trash. It has little to no rust and the body is really straight and paint is good for its age.

 

While it sat the damn rats took up residence in the engine compartment building nests and of course chewing wires. Initially I thought it was just the wires surrounding the battery tray. The battery was out and the platform was perfect for a rat house. I fixed all those wires but as I inspected further, below the intake plenum on the drivers side cylinder bank there was another nest and the last resident chewed the fuel injector wires, all three on that side.

 

Now for my dilemma and your input. I have the FSM and am a capable mechanic. The vehicle engine/drivetrain has 249,823 miles on it. The engine compartment and all accessories, everything in or on the engine or in the engine bay is pretty beat, previous owner was rough on it. My goal is to build a capable rig, some daily driving (I have a teenage son who will be driving soon and likes 4x4's) weekend driving, deer lease and just cruising. I want to do the poor mans lift with JGC springs, bigger tires, custom bumpers, you know necessary stuff for stated purpose. Eventually I would find better interior stuff and clean up the inside. Would you put the time, energy and frustration into pulling the plenum, repairing wires etc to get it running. Would you pull the engine and drivetrain and rebuild/repair. Find a donor motor/drivetrain (VG30e or other). Or would you sell this thing for what you could get and start with a different platform Pathy?

 

For perspective, I live near Dallas, TX and can find pathy's and JDM' engine/trannies on craigslist all day long including TDI's and later model gassers. So you understand my budget, I'm not looking to spend huge amounts of money but am realistic about what stuff costs. Those of you who may have started with a similar platform, those of you with tons of experience with these things tell me what your thinking please.

 

Thanks,

 

TXPower

[Slartibartfast]

Disclaimer, I don't have tons of experience and I didn't start with a rig needing that much work... but I do read too much stuff on here and remember a fair amount of it, so here goes.

 

It sounds like you've got a clean shell with interior/drivetrain/wiring that are in bad shape. You might save yourself some aggravation (and have a nicer final product) by finding a lower mileage parts Pathy with a rusted out frame or body damage or something and swap over its interior/electrical/mechanicals. Or you could get the harness/interior from a wrecking yard and find a VG33 for it out of a Frontier, Xterra, or later Pathfinder, and end up with a more powerful truck than you started with.

 

If you decide to rebuild your trans, it may need bearings as well as syncros. The oil level was too low from the factory, so some of the bearings don't get enough lubrication, which tends to make it whine in higher gears.

 

If you decide to go for it, we love pictures here.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Slartibartfast

[gv280z]

A. It's not your daily driver so you can afford to take your time with it so that's cool. B. You already know that which ever route you take, it's going to be a lot of work regardless.

 

C. The engine has high mileage and the tranny needs a rebuild.

 

Personally, if it were me I'd pull the engine and tranny and sell for whatever you can get for it, and throw in a 2.7 TDI with a good manual trans and, slowly make your way through the truck from there. Hell, why not do an SAS while you're at it, you said the front end needs all kind of work, right? Perfect excuse to rip the whole damn thing out!

 

You have to rebuild your truck regardless, why not make it worth while instead of going back with stock equipment? I'd ask Unccpathfinder for help, he seems to be able to speak this language. Yea, the more I think about it your situation is prime for a big rebuild like this.

 

DISCLAIMER: The person making the aforementioned comments loves to pretend he's the greatest Monday morning armchair quarterback that's ever played the game and thus his comments are not based in any kind of actual experience; albeit where as he believes he is speaking from a logical standpoint, he is in fact completely clueless as to the reality of your situation. Please enjoy responsibly.

[ejin4499]

Assuming all the time in the world to do things slowly and as cash permits I would pull everything down to the bare metal, save what is still in decent shape for later, get a donor vehicle and swap everything over wholesale. If I had an option I would get something with a VQ engine. Then once I know how heavy the engine is going to be SAS it.

 

[TXPower]

I'm leaning toward the VG33e swap-in several guys have done, a la Mr.510, Nefarious and others. There's a VG33e on CL right now for 400 bucks with MT. With one of Mr.510's crank adapters and a few fabs for accessories/brackets here and there, from what I have read, almost plug and play. Of course, I don't have the pistons Mr.510 used to change the CR yielding aVG34 but I bet a stock VG33e is better than what I was used to from my VG30. I searched A BUNCH for other swap threads with good photos and write-ups to put in my favorites for reference. Is there someone's rig on this forum that did the VG33e swap I didn't mention that has posted a good thread with photos I need to look at?

 

SAS, uh, I'm pretty mechanically inclined have welder, torch and other tools but I don't know I could get an SAS done without some serious help...............

 

I like the idea of finding a donor with parts I need, especially interior but man, my wife is not gonna stand for another pathy parked anywhere around the house. Is it possible to buy any new OEM or Aftermarket interior stuff for these pathy's or is salvage pretty much where I'll be confined as I look for interior trim components.

 

There is a 2.7 TDI with MT local for 1900 bucks, that had crossed my mind too but don't know much about diesels, and the electrical side of automotive stuff is my weak suit, thus the logistics of the ecm and wiring on a project such as that make me tremble. I'm not saying no but any place you can send me for reference with a good write-up and pics?

 

Thanks men,

 

TXPower

 

 

[gv280z]

Uhhggg...this changes everything, you never mentioned a wife factor before. Part out the old one, sell it for scrap metal and get whatever per pound they'll give you and by another used in decent condition. With what your saying now about your ability with the front end and the electronics and wiring, NOW i think you should just run away and head for safety. You don't want to get mired in this with your wife looking over your shoulder screaming at you..no no no no no......

 

 

Hey you don't happen to be involved with that new natural gas power plant going in at Temple do you? The Panda Temple energy what ever..Looks pretty interesting. Texas is going to lead the way with that new tech, I believe.

 

Edited January 12, 2014 by gv280z

[TXPower]

Well as everyone here married knows, the wife is always a factor.......... I may have overstated that part a bit, she'll get mad but she can get glad in the same drawers far as I'm concerned. I guess I just don't know about having another disabled WD21 sitting round, neighbors might think I'm trashy, LOL!

 

enjin, you mentioned the VQ engine, I don't know what those came in or anything at all about them. What was the application, year models and is there working examples on this forum of folks swapping them into a WD?

 

gv280z, no sir,I'm not involved in natural gas industry but do agree we likely will lead the way in that energy supply market. Hell, our whole damn country should with the reserves we're sitting on. You quit me quick when I mentioned my wife's objections............. so no TDI swap then? Or are you just saying back to the drawing board for the platform vehicle. If so, what do you suggest, another WD21, R50 or something else?

 

And everybody else, what do ya'll think, throw out the baby and the bath water or stick with it. I should have mentioned my son was going to be wrenching with me so he can learn more of the basics while I'm learning some more fabskills etc, that plays into my decision.

 

I wont tax ya'll much more with my decision, I just want as much different perspective as possible.

 

Thanks,

 

TXPower

[gv280z]

Let me start by saying I'm not a skilled high level mechanic, I'm low on the totem pole wrench and socket. I can change brakes, oil, spark plugs, fuel filter, valve cover gasket..I had two years of auto tech in high school where I rebuilt several v8 heads, and I once pulled the head on an old Toyota celica that had a blown head gasket, I was 19 and hopeless, it took me atleast 6 months with that car in pieces in my garage, and ended in failure, had it towed. That's the extent of my experience, aside from the 15 or so cars I've owned over the last 23 years. I have knowledge about engines and how they work, transmissions to a much lesser degree and wiring even less..what you're describing I wouldn't prescribe to any but a well rounded experienced mechanic that had time, money and work space with tools and equipment, and an understand wife.

 

If you are intent on this, I would move the operation back to the deer lease and set up shop there. You might be able to rent a large enough storage space where you can stash both trucks and do the work. Ofcourse anything is possible if you can read and you have the right tools and availability to do the work, some friendly support wouldn't hurt either...but I think this is a HUGE undertaking, not to be considered if your wife is going to complain about everything and you live in a deed restricted community. You will have two trucks in pieces spread around your property for the next two years.

 

I think the TDI swap would be awesome, I wish my truck had a TD 27, they have more torque, get better mileage and will last longer if you take care of it. One of my many cars was a 81 Datsun 810 B / Nissan Maxima with I think an RD28 inline 6 cyl diesel and it was great, it was a pos but I loved it right up until I blew the motor because I didn't keep any oil in it, still makes me sad to think of it. And if you ever need to evacuate town, a diesel is a great tool because they sip fuel, especially a small one like ours, and you can run them on just about any kind of oil based liquid, bio diesel for one thing, vegetable oil too.

 

Small diesel engines are cool, the big v8 diesels are nasty, like our other shop work truck F250 is lifted with 35" tires, rock hard suspension and 6.0 liter v8 diesel engine, I HATE driving that truck but I do appreciate the work it does for me..but man I can't WAIT to finally make it back to my shop so I can ditch the damned thing and get back in my Chevy silverado with a quiet v6 4.3L. Driving that ford across town is like having a washboard player from a Zydeco band sitting in the passenger seat just ripping away the entire time.

 

The reason I bailed on you is (me in your position) I feel you'd save so much in time and headache and fights with the wife if you avoid the swamp route full of quicksand and other hazards that you're considering, out with the old and in with the also old in good condition and be done with it.

Edited January 12, 2014 by gv280z

[gv280z]

Sorry, I forgot you asked what to move on to, depending on what you want it for, I prefer the WD21 but the R50 is also nice, I definitely wouldn't mind finding a good deal on a nice looking one, you mentioned there is a TD27 for sale near you, that's the one I'd be interested in. Oh yeah, you were asking where you can find a VQ model engine, those are used in the Infinity QX4 2000 and up year model, it's a 3.5 L 240 hp, has a timing chain instead of a belt and uses individual coil packs for each cylinder.

[TXPower]

All good points. I do not live in a deed restricted community, I live on property outside the city limits but do have neighbors. My concern is just having another "junk" car sitting around. I wouldn't even buy a donor until I was ready to begin interior swap and doubt I would buy a whole vehicle even when I do. Of course, if the price was right and it was chalk full of useable parts, I would. Thanks for the perspective on your mechanical skills. I have hot-rodded SBC's and done quite a bit of fab on hot-rods in general since I was about 14, including putting motors and trannies into vehicles they were never intended to be in.

 

Is there a thread somewhere on a good TDI swap?

 

For now, I'm gonna keep fixing wires and get this thing running again. Once its running, I'll decide where I go from there.

 

TXPower

[gv280z]

I'm going to give you a link to the diesel engine section under The Garage / How to forums. If this doesn't work, just go into The Garage and then click on the arrow next to "Custom" and choose show all and save / update filter. That way you can see all the threads and topics that have come from years past. Just look around in here, just now I did a quick 5 second scan and saw multiple threads about the TD27.

 

Okay I just tried it, it doesn't work, so when you go there you need to click the arrow next to custom and go down to the bottom filter where yours will probably say last 60 days, open that up to choose a different time frame and click "Show All" then you can find what you need.

 

http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/forum/30-diesel-engine-discussion/?changefilters=1

Edited January 12, 2014 by gv280z

[silverton]

For the record, a vg33e is faster than a vg34i

 

Granted, we didn't really have a fair race cause his rig is always loaded with enough recovery gear to bring the Titanic up.

 

I recommend doing a VG33 swap. It's a piece of cake with the crank adapter and with everything laid out and explained in detail in his build thread, why wouldn't you? Swapping to a TD or VQ engine would require a lot more work since AFAIK no one has done it.

[TXPower]

gv280z, thanks man, I'll give the search parameters you recommend a gander. Like I said, there is a TD locally for 1900 bucks with tranny ecm and it looks like some of the wiring harness.

 

Silverton, thanks to you also, as I said and for the same reason you pointed out, Mr.510 has the crank adapter and a damn good write-up with photos. I'm leaning more toward that.

 

Those of you who have done the swap to a stock VG33e, how much more power is noticeable, or as I've read it stated, what's the difference in torque/power feeling on the butt dyno?

 

Thanks to all so far for ringing in with your thoughts and opinions, please keep them coming......

 

TXPower

[Precise1]

X23 on the VG33 swap.

 

I haven't done it, my motor is too fresh and I have other things that need the attention, but I can paraphrase.

The VG30 has 153hp & 182ft/lb torque, the VG33 has 170hp & 202ft/lb torque so that is an 11% gain stock. Swap in some VG30 cams (euro spec if possible), put on headers/ exhaust and maybe do a mild port/polish should net you another 10-15 hp (YMMV), so possibly another 10% gain, or aprox 30hp more. That is a pretty substantial gain for a simple swap and keeping all accessories/sensors/computer/etc. From what I have read, it is exactly the thing to wake these old Pathys up a little.

 

*awaits the butt dynos*

 

B

[Nefarious]

I run a vg33 with Obx headers, full 2.5" exhaust (magnaflow cat, flowmaster muffler), electric fans, and a cone intake. So far my butt dyno says about 35-40 horse over stock and even more torque than that.

I would say maybe 185 or 190 HP and maybe 210-215 lb ft. I run 33x12.5x15s with 7" lift, auto trans and stock 4.63 gears and it runs like a bat out of hell when I put my foot down into it. It's definitely more powerful than stock, even with the tires and lift.

 

Your manual will have even better response.

 

We just finished my girls vg33 swap in her pathy recently as well. Hers has no power mods at all but its a manual trans and on 31x10.5x15 with 4.36 gears and hers is even faster than mine once we get past 60kmh (yes we race our pathys against each other) lol

 

I would suggest the vg33 route as it really is straight forward and theres a lot of resources for it as well. Really makes these things fun machines! (Not that they arent already).

You can also expect your mileage to go up as well. I noticed about 2mpg increase on both our swaps.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Nefarious

[TXPower]

Precise1 and Nefarious, everyone, thanks. I will be doing the swap. You'll notice on my other thread about Injector Wiring and Rats!, I'm working thru some wiring issues and once I get them solved, get this dang thing running again, I will find a donor motor and tranny, as my 5spd is spent........ I've done some research and see that the VG33E was offered in other applications like the Quest Van and Frontier as well as later model Pathfinders and other manufacturer vehicles such as a Mercury (I think?) of some sort. Obviously, if I can find one from a later model vehicle already equipped with a 5spd tranny, I can kill 2 birds with one stone. Unless the later model 5spd wont work in my WD21? Having said that, gents, another question, is there something more I need to know to stay away from, that is, is there something about the VG33E from say a Quest van or Mercury car that's makes it unusable in my stated plan?

 

As always thanks to all,

 

TXPower

[Nefarious]

The vg30e came in the first gen Nissan quest and mercury villager. I know the second gen quest had the vg33 but I'm not sure there was a second gen villager...

I do live in canada so maybe its just not released here but I've never seen or heard of one...

 

The difference between normal Vg engines and the Ford edition VG engines is just that the Ford uses different pistons to increase valve clearance to make the motor non-interference but it has a slightly less horsepower rating.

 

Down 5-7 HP if I remember correctly. Any vg33 should be fine as I think they are all the same.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is what I have found to be true anyways.

 

I am pretty sure as long as its a vg33 it will be the same as any other vg33. It's the vg30 engines that had the differences AFAIK

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nefarious

[ahardb0dy]

VG33 also came in the xterra's, and Infiniti QX4

[Nefarious]

What he said ^, oh and frontiers!

Edited January 17, 2014 by Nefarious

[Slartibartfast]

From what I've read, the transmission out of an Xterra, R50 Pathy, or Frontier should fit the WD21. Also the post-95 five-speed transmissions had a higher oil capacity to prevent the oil starvation issues of the older ones.

 

I think it was Adamzan who put an Xterra auto trans into his WD a week or so ago, said it bolted right in.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Slartibartfast

[TXPower]

That's good news, thanks men. I will steer clear of the VG33e's spec'd and built for Ford/Mercury, I'm not sacrificing any HP, that's the whole point of this swap!

 

TXPower

[ahardb0dy]

yeah but if the timing belt ever breaks it would be nice to know the pistons aren't going to slam into the valves,

[Kingman]

I'm stoked to get my Villager engine, 5hp is well worth the pain of a teardown should anything ever happen in my book.

[gv280z]

It sounds like that extra clearance between the piston and the valves sacrificed on compression ratio, however that engine will never die, and being a lower compression engine, you could add on a turbo / rotax turbo / belt driven charger without having to change out the pistons. Pistons used in a forced induction engine are dished to keep the compression ratio low to allow for the extra force coming into the combustion chamber, or else the engine would tear itself apart. I'd look and see what kind of luck people have had adding an exhaust or belt driven turbo to the Villager engine..

Edited January 18, 2014 by gv280z

[Kingman]

They do fantastic. NA 9:1 VGs do even better though.