Kingman Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tungsten, show the proof that there's an issue with welding the center links. Show me all of the broken pieces from this design flaw man. Oh wait. There aren't any. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Welding changes the tensile strength properties in certain areas. It removes the uniform metal across the entire link. If it doesn't break at the weld, it will break close to the weld. If Grassroots 4x4 had casted their own links then that would be a different story. Weld = Break Solid = Bend Besides, that dog bone design is crap. It puts the tie rods at weird angles over bumps causing bump steer or even a change in the toe alignment and seriously limits the amount of travel on the inner tie rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamzan Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Dude there is going to be bump steer no matter what you do if it is lifted. You have never actually wheeled the truck on a TRAIL. Rough roads don't count. I didn't believe someone when they told me that you could blow up the stock CL on one trail ride until it happened to me. And my tires would toe in and out over 1/4 inch when it was up on the hoist. That was two guys one at each tire, so much play in the CL and IA it was scary as hell to drive home. Come up here and I'll take you wheeling. Then you'll see. My truck had a perfect front end even after I railed it through every pot hole, rutted country road and construction zone around. It didn't mess up until I went on actual trails and bounced it off of rocks. Now I've never bent a TRE, but I have been through 3 sets of lower ball joints and 2 sets of uppers. I've also changed the center link twice, new idler once, then rebuilt my stock one and put it back in with the bronze bushings, which already have play. Also rust isn't an issue if you lube things regularly like you're supposed to. But of course you're right, the rest of us don't know what we're talking about. Edited February 17, 2012 by adamzan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I said show, not write something most people already know. I like how you dog everything based on theories spinning around in your head instead of anything going on in real life. It makes sense to think that if, in real life scenarios, the Grassroots links were breaking they wouldn't be selling any, many people here would have complained about them, and the company would probably be in over their head with lawsuits from people nearly dying when their trucks lose control. Yet none of that is happening, so they are not breaking. And therefore you're just babbling out your ass again. "I reject your reality and substitute my own." They're designed to withstand 10,000LB side impacts. I can't wait to put one of these links under my truck and make a tried and true Idler Arm brace, it needs it bad. Either save up for new center link or buy a used one from someone here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) whatever i'm not going to argue anymore you are the consumer so you have your own choices i don't like that option and explained why but you don't have to agree with me so pick what you like forget about the welding, i still don't like that dog bone design whether it is modified or stock because of their angles so i'm doing something different I can't wait to put one of these links under my truck and make a tried and true Idler Arm brace, it needs it bad. Either save up for new center link or buy a used one from someone here. i'm going to build an entirely new system based on the 2wd link swap that will be better than the grassroots setup and possibly even better than a calmini setup Dude there is going to be bump steer no matter what you do if it is lifted. much less to no bump steer with what i'm doing Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Any other idler arm candidates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1994SEV6 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I still don't understand the original problem... Why don't you just put a new idler arm on and let it go for another 200,000 miles? I don't understand the need for all these complicated designs of braces and stronger braces and dual steering boxes. So what if the original one failed? Replace it, and it WILL break again...in 10-15 years. For a daily driver, I don't see the point. Kingman, what you said about "the Grassroots links were breaking they wouldn't be selling any, many people here would have complained about them, and the company would probably be in over their head with lawsuits from people nearly dying when their trucks lose control" That's not necessarily true. In extremely specialized markets (such as aftermarket parts for WD21s), people don't have much choice. They have Grassroots, Calmini, custom fab, and that's pretty much it. This particular part may not be causing people to die, but if somebody wants/needs that part, and it's their only choice, guess what, it's still gonna be bought no matter how bad it is. My friend is a mechanic for BB guns at an arena. You wouldn't believe how many fake, cheapo guns from China he fixes. Those things are dangerous, toxic, broken, and ugly out of the box. Screws messing, parts missing, no lube, wires missing, crossed wires, toxic ingredients. AND it's illegal to manufacture and sell them in China, but they still sell them by the thousands. Little kids still buy them in the dozens despite all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahardb0dy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I agree with what was said already, when driven within the limitations of the truck the idler arm and related parts will probably survive and last a normal amount of time, but any of the front end parts can be wiped out in a couple of minutes if they are put to extreme use. One time I pulled a suburban out that was high centered with my hardbody, the front end of my truck came up so much from yanking the guy off the hill he was on and bent the hell out of the idler arm, it only took that one time, a few minutes to bend the arm. Any part can be made bulletproof but like has been said it's just going to show the weak link some where else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Weld = Break Solid = Bend Personally only seen a few actual welds break...its usually the material next to the weld that fails BC you have put too much heat into it and have made it brittle but I'd guess the steel that the Pittman and idler arm are either cast or foout of is at least 30 if not greater than 50 ksi steel...so if you degrade it by 50% u r looking at 15-25 ksi properties....well then lets look at the loads and cross sectional areas...yep not seeing anything too alarming here ESP since I'm looking at yield and ultimate strengths BC that's what i care about in this application not tensile strength... Edited February 17, 2012 by unccpathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 That's not necessarily true. In extremely specialized markets (such as aftermarket parts for WD21s), people don't have much choice. They have Grassroots, Calmini, custom fab, and that's pretty much it. This particular part may not be causing people to die, but if somebody wants/needs that part, and it's their only choice, guess what, it's still gonna be bought no matter how bad it is. That's right, when people don't have much choice they will settle for the only option that's available to them. I'm happy that these GR4x4 links appear to not cause any steering system failures but to me, the GR4x4 link only eliminates half of the problem anyway. I find the entire geometry of the dog bone style link too awkward for any use outside flat roads. Those tie rods just don't get enough wiggle room and the link looks like it will overpower the tie rods and force them to bend off-road. That's MY OPINION. Either way, I'm pretty sure the entire community will benefit from another option I'm about to make and test. I still don't understand the original problem... Why don't you just put a new idler arm on and let it go for another 200,000 miles? I'm not trying to just fix the idler arm. I'm building a proof of concept system to make the steering at least twice as good and twice as strong. To do that, I need to eliminate the design flaw of the stock idler arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreus009 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Anyway.....I looked at the 94 tech manual to see the difference between the 2WD and 4WD steering connections. The idler arm of the 2WD is unbraced just like the 4WD. At a glance the tie rods and center link look less substantial then the 4wd ones. Before I swapped over to the 2WD system, I'd ask myself why did Nissan engineers make two different designs for 2WD vs 4WD....my first two thoughts are range of motion and strength. It would generally be expected that 4wd vehicle suspension will be put through greater range of motion and be subjected to more abuse. The 2WD system may work adequately if you customize it completely to be strong enough to handle the abuse you intend to throw at it, but you may end up spending more money than if you bought something off the shelf such as the Calmini system. IMO, the Calmini system is geometrically the best design I have seen. I don't know about the quality of components they use or their material strengths. The Calmini system eliminates the twist on the center link by connecting the tie rods directly to the idler arm/pit man. I think the tie rods would still be a weak link due to the angle especially on lifted vehicles. However, TREs should be more inexpensive and easier to replace then the centerlink. Also, by extending the idler arm and pitman arm to allow the TRE to connect directly, there is an increased possibility of bending these under certain conditions. Hopefully, Calmini accounted for that in the material grade selection. I'm not knocking the GR centerlink. It is definitely an improvement over the original, but is still subject to the twisting forces exerted by the tie rods due to the dog bone design. My friend installed a GR centerlink on his Frontier after the original started to fail during an offroad trip. It has held up well and shows no signs of degradation. I've been fortunate enough to not have failed my centerlink or bent my idler arm(which was braced at 150,000 miles). I have GR centerlink in the garage that I will install when the time comes since for myself I don't abuse my truck enough to justify the Calmini system. Got other toys I could spend that kind of scratch on ;-) J Edited February 17, 2012 by andreus009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) The Calmini system eliminates the twist on the center link by connecting the tie rods directly to the idler arm/pit man. I think the tie rods would still be a weak link due to the angle especially on lifted vehicles. However, TREs should be more inexpensive and easier to replace then the centerlink. Also, by extending the idler arm and pitman arm to allow the TRE to connect directly, there is an increased possibility of bending these under certain conditions. CHECK I'm not knocking the GR centerlink. It is definitely an improvement over the original, but is still subject to the twisting forces exerted by the tie rods due to the dog bone design. CHECK The 2WD system may work adequately if you customize it completely to be strong enough to handle the abuse you intend to throw at it, but you may end up spending more money than if you bought something off the shelf such as the Calmini system. The Calmini system is over $600. I can get high strength 2WD steering parts in a complete system for half that cost. I already did the math. Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm not trying to just fix the idler arm. I'm building a proof of concept system to make the steering at least twice as good and twice as strong. To do that, I need to eliminate the design flaw of the stock idler arm. Build 2...send me one of those and ill let you know how bulletproof it is...1 weekend I guarantee ill break something be it a spindle, a-arm, steering box or steering component...whatever the next weakest link is 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverton Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 That last idler arm is BEEFY. I like the looks of it, and if I had not already went through the trouble of doing the dual box mod, I would have sprung on that. That's the Calmini replacement proprietary idler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefarious Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This is what I did in a few hours this morning. Not perfect and my welder sucks (120v licoln flux core), but it should do the job and the welds are strong anyways. Fits absolutely perfectly. Should brace it quite nicely.. Worth the 6$ piece of steel i bought for it. Also put new oem nylons in the idler. had to cut a clearance hole in the plate as there is a grease nipple right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Okay, a whole lot to try and follow up on. A ton of good info here... in reply to my IA wearing while braced: Prior to my hoohaa there was a whole lot of play on my centerlink which in turn but a lot more stress on the IA, the plastic "bearings" wore plumb out and it started to death wobble at high way speeds... Thus I went dummy box... That said... I do not see a point in arguing over something that is tried and true, IE the GR fix. I have been welding for years, and agree 100% with the statement about "Welds not breaking, but the material around it." Of course I cannot stress test my centerlink anymore than I already do, but I have yet to see any issues in the fabrication of it... (VERY WELL MADE.) Mine has been AWESOME. I have abused the crap out of it and had no issues whatsoever. As is said in the ranks of the US GOVT... "Form your own opinion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesRich Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Build 2...send me one of those and ill let you know how bulletproof it is...1 weekend I guarantee ill break something be it a spindle, a-arm, steering box or steering component...whatever the next weakest link is The UNCC test mule! If it gets the UNCC stamp of approval We know it's tough! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hopefully ill be sas'd soon and onto testing bigger and better things but for now band aids and ace bandages is my queue...but this is my day to day now...they haven't let me beat on one the way i want yet...but very soon but so far its taken my abuse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) had to cut a clearance hole in the plate as there is a grease nipple right there. that's awesome i love the fact that you can load that with grease to prevent it from wearing out too fast i can see why the 4x4parts adapter is better than calminis solution now https://www.4x4parts.com/nissan/idler-arm-brace-p-58.html i like this idea too https://www.4x4parts.com/nissan/steering-enhancement-package-p-2578.html brace and stabilizer all in one kit Edited February 18, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) OK thanks for the input everyone (even if you did not agree with me in some areas). I am learning more and more things myself too. First post of the thread updated! Read up on it, tell me how accurate the information looks, and maybe a mod can sticky this. I don't think it's beating a dead horse. New solutions are always possible to old problems. Edited February 18, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefarious Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I don't think it's beating a dead horse. New solutions are always possible to old problems. agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Looks like a worthy write up... Good job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wd21overland Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Nice write up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesRich Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hopefully ill be sas'd soon and onto testing bigger and better things but for now band aids and ace bandages is my queue...but this is my day to day now...they haven't let me beat on one the way i want yet...but very soon but so far its taken my abuse Those are supposed to be pretty tough but I hear they are heavy too. So when are we going to see a pic of this smoking a front tire on a tree root? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) hopefully soon...so far I can't see where it's too heavy...or at least the power to weight ratio seems to be pretty damn good...I've only used one onsite...i want to take one to Gulches or URE for a weekend after I get the pathy back to roadworthy status and we will go out in both to see which one breaks first...my vote is the pathy BTW to not complete thread jack...nice work on the idler arm brace Edited February 19, 2012 by unccpathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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