Starter Circuit

[OlBlue]

While finishing up the install of my new engine into my 91, I installed a new starter.

 

When I turned the key to fire it up the starter gave a click and split second of turning. When I tried it again there was only the "click". I double checked the connections and everything seemed tight and clean. I then checked the battery for charge and that checked out OK.

 

I removed the "new" starter and reinstalled the original starter which worked fine the last time the vehicle ran.

When I turned the key the same thing happened, click, click...

I tested the "new" starter on the bench and it seemed to work fine on the bench.

 

A buddy stopped by and I had him turn the key while I looked at the original starter.

Now that I was outside the vehicle I could see that the "click" was accommpanied by some sparks around the starter when the ignition was turned.

I then pulled the starter (again)to inspect the wires and contacts.

 

Despite being oily (oil filter relocation kit is on the wish list) the wire housing seem to be in good shape with the exception of the thin wire that I think leads to the oil pressure sensor which I wrapped in electrical tape.

 

Thinking I had found the problem, I reinstalled one of the starters and gave it another go...unfortunately with the same result..."click-zappp".

 

I have inspected the negative cable that goes from the battery terminal behind the PS pump, it seems to be in good shape.

The cable that leads to the starter from the positive terminal also appears to be fine.

 

The connector that plugs in on top of the solenoid looks pretty rough but functioned fine last time the truck was running.

 

I realize that something must be off or exposed to make the arc/spark but after looking everything over I am wondering if I missed attaching a ground wire somewhere else during the install.

 

Any ideas?

 

Sorry for the long post, but I am thinking I must have missed something simple, looking at this too closely.

[sewebster]

Try the starter connected to the truck wires, but not installed? edit: actually I guess that won't work because the starter wouldn't be grounded.

 

I had a starter on a chevette cause sparks because the housing was broken and the gears were grinding, but I gather thats not the case here

Edited September 15, 2011 by sewebster

[k9sar]

it will work if you ground the starter to the block with a jumper cable. I've tested mine that way

[krmiller07]

Sounds like a bad solonoid !

[Mr_Clean]

Batteries can go bad and still show a good charge. Once you put them under a load, the voltage drops... I have a buddy that this very thing just happened to last week. He even took his battery to Autozone, they tested it and said it was good. I lent him a spare DieHard I have in my garage and it fires up every time.

[OlBlue]

Thanks guys, since I tried a brand new starter and one I know that worked fine and I can hear the solenoid "click", I am pretty sure the problem is further up the line. I also tried switching out the battery from my other truck and still no dice. After giving it some more thought I am sure the problem must be something simple, from what little I know about electricity it would not spark unless that was the easiest path for it go something is no right.

 

I have some heat shrink I am going to wrap around the first few cm of the wires that connect to the starter that will at least rule out the obvious.

 

No question about though getting the starter out on the MT is much easier than the automatic, without having the AT lines in the way.

 

Thanks for the replies, I will let you know how it goes!

[OlBlue]

The plot thickens...

I took the starter out and covered up the wires, this seems to have resolved the sparking issue.

Both starter motors seem fine on the bench (spinning clean and fast)

When I connect the starter to the vehicle, and ground it using a jumper cable I get the same rapid "click click, clickety click" I do when they are installed but not rotation.

Normally I would think that the starter was toast but since both starters test fine, and one is brand new, I am really not sure what to make of it.

The ignition seems to put current to the starter (clickety click), but the starter(s) won't turn when connected to the vehicle...

The starter circuit seems fairly simple...the ground is connected to the block and the positive cable seems to be in good order with good contact on the starter terminal.

 

I am running out of variables to eliminate.

The positive cable is bundled unless someone points me in a different direction I guess this weekend I will peel that back and inspect it. If that checks out I might pull the starter from my 95 (which works)and give it a try.

 

Funny thing is this is the last thing I was worried about when installing a new engine.

[sewebster]

Well, sounds like you have some issue with the wiring or ignition switch or something. The starter solenoid I believe both makes the electrical connection to spin the starter and also pushes the pinion gear in to mesh with the flywheel. Perhaps during the engine work some damage was done to the wire to the solenoid such that it doesn't have enough voltage to activate the solenoid. This is a common problem, hence the relay mods that lots of people do....

 

You could try wiring up the starter as you did on the vehicle, with the ground jumper and main positive connection, except don't connect the wire to the solenoid. Instead apply 12V yourself from the battery or wherever?

[OlBlue]

Thanks Sewebster you might break 1000 posts if I don;t figure this out soon!!

I think we are on the same page. The voltage is going somewhere...without the right outcome.

Either the starters are junk or there is something else (a short) sucking up the voltage.

 

From what I figure the solenoid is basically an on/off switch that makes the click sound, when the switch is "switched" it activates the motor which spins the armature, which forces the gear to poke out and engage with the flywheel turning the engine over. The click..I have.

 

If the starter motor needs to spin at a set RPM to force the gear out and when the switch is off or the motor slows, the spring retracts the gear back...but I am not even getting that far.

 

In this case I seem to have two starters (again one top shelf/brand new and the other that worked fine when I blew a t-belt)with switches that are closing/opening/clicking but the voltage (when attached to the vehicle)is not enough to make the thing spin and the gear come out.

 

If I have this straight (?) there is enough juice to click the switches, but not enough to spin the starter even with a fresh battery or jumping it with my charger set on "boost".

 

As much as I don't feel like changing another one, I might remove the starter and battery from my 95 just to eliminate the possiblity I just have exceptionally bad luck with starters.

 

If there are any starter motor jedis out there please feel free to comment so I don't mislead some poor searcher to the dark side of the starter world...the saga continues

[Slartibartfast]

There's a mod I've seen that adds another relay to the system, between the ignition and the starter solenoid. Maybe the ignition suffers from the same issues as the headlight switches? Or maybe this just compensates for a worn-out starter solenoid.

 

I'm no expert on starters, so I had a redneck explain it to me slowly. I think I've got it now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbDeq9fi7Ak

 

The only problem he describes that fits your symptoms is that the little copper plates are worn out. Since both fire up fine on the bench, and one's brand new, I'm pretty sure this isn't the issue. For now at least, let's assume the starters are both good.

 

I also don't think it's clicking but then not starting due to a weak battery. I've seen cars with batteries that are well and truly dead at least try to start. I suspect you're not far off, though. Here's why I think your battery's not the problem either.

 

The other day there was a car in the school parking lot that wouldn't start. The battery clamp was loose. Enough juice got through to do the dash lights and all, but it couldn't pass the amperage needed to wake up the starter. The girl turned the key, and it didn't do squat (don't remember if it clicked or not). Once I tightened the clamp, the engine started right up. I suspect that this may be the case with your starter connections (though it can't hurt to check the battery hookups too). You mentioned that your plug looked a little dodgy... this could very well be the problem. A weak connection (rather like a weak battery) looks great on the voltmeter but as soon as you put a load on it, it fails. (The sparks you mention say bad connection to me, as well. The battery clamp on this car sparked like crazy when I wiggled it.)

 

If you ever feel like a car work noob... don't. One of the other guys trying to get the girl's car started was afraid to touch the battery terminals, because he thought it would shock him. Made me feel rather better about my limited knowledge.

 

And my condolences on having to pull the starter multiple times... Nissan really didn't think the starter placement through very well.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Slartibartfast

[JamesRich]

The starter solenoid I believe both makes the electrical connection to spin the starter and also pushes the pinion gear in to mesh with the flywheel. Perhaps during the engine work some damage was done to the wire to the solenoid such that it doesn't have enough voltage to activate the solenoid. This is a common problem, hence the relay mods that lots of people do....

 

You could try wiring up the starter as you did on the vehicle, with the ground jumper and main positive connection, except don't connect the wire to the solenoid. Instead apply 12V yourself from the battery or wherever?

X2 I was going to say that!

First because it's a new motor make sure it does turn, course I'm sure you already checked that. Next connect a volt meter to the small wire going to the solenoid that activates it. Now hit the key and see how much voltage is going to the starter solenoid. The solenoids on these trucks obviously require alot of amperage since nissan uses such a large wire in the harness. When I did this test on my truck I was only getting 9 volts to the solenoid. After I did the relay mod it's getting a solid 12 volts and has started every time.

To test if you need this mod, with the starter fully installed connect another wire to the small terminal on the solenoid and touch it to the positive terminal on the battery. If it cranks over do the relay mod and you should be good.

James

[k9sar]

When I tested my starter, I used my jumper cables to connect the terminal wire underneath to the starter post for the constant 12V (this simply allows the starter to be removed but still involves the truck wiring for power. Then I ground the starter to the block (not the frame) since this may help identify a block grounding problem. With the jumpers hooked up, I throw a test lead on the trigger wire connection on the starter solenoid and use that to tap the positive on the battery (removes the ignition circuit from the equation so you don't need the key). IF it works, try moving your ground to the frame instead of the block (looking for ground problem). Try moving from the 12V big-ass wire for the starter and connect directly to the + post (looking for problem with 12v constant supply). Try jumpering the trigger to the real connector and testing with the key. You can isolate the 3 main components of the ignition circuit this way and see where the problem lies.

[krmiller07]

Just because a starter 'bench checks' ok, doesn't mean it will spin the motor. I went through 4 'new' rebuilt starters before getting one that would hold up under load. I'm wondering if you don't have an electrical short or a wire grounding out on something further up the line that's causing this? It's worth doing a full inspection from the solonoid backwards up as far as you can. Then, like someone mentioned. Check the terminal connections at the battery.

[adamzan]

Check this out, 4x4path94's truck seemed to be eating starters and it had the same symptoms yours did. To fix it we did this mod, and it has worked ever since.

 

http://www.4x4parts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=315995&an=0&page=0

[Mr_Clean]

Mine would click intermittently as well. It would probably act up about every 4th or 5th start. I did the relay mod and it hasn’t missed a beat yet (2 months now).

 

I went to my local pick-n-pull JY and cut the connectors out of another Pathfinder so I could install the relay mod without cutting into my factory harness.

[OlBlue]

Check this out, 4x4path94's truck seemed to be eating starters and it had the same symptoms yours did. To fix it we did this mod, and it has worked ever since.

 

http://www.4x4parts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=315995&an=0&page=0

 

Perfect! Thanks everyone, this looks like the way to go. Much appreciated.

I will give the links and diagrams a look tonight, and see what I can get pulled together!

[OlBlue]

I did a temporary version of this fix, problem solved!!!

I will be ordering in a relay for a more permanent version. Thanks very much for the suggestions, and ultimately the fix. Definetly would not have come up with that on my own.

As an added bonus, I am getting pretty quick at pulling and installing starters...!