Misterfixit Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 My 1993 Pathfinder has started stalling when I make a right turn. Just like in the olden days on my 1950 Kaiser Traveller (6 cyl Continental Red seal and 3 on the tree) when I made a turn too fast and starved the carb out. I checked the shop manual and it recommended checking the fuel delivery system first. So I did that, beginning at the engine, I changed the fuel filter (it drained a grayish black sludge). I blew out the fuel lines with air and then went all the way back tot he tank. I drained the fuel tank, pulled the fuel pump up and vacuumed out the tank with my wet/dry vac; then poured in 1 gallon of denatured alcohol and 1 quart of industrial naptha and 1 gallon of gasoline which I had strained through a chamois. Put all back together and started the engine. ran it for awhile stationary, and juggling the car from one side to another by lifting and pulling down on the doors. Thought maybe that might show up some effects from movement. Ran fine. I put in another 5 gallons of gas, and took her on the road. Sure enough, I drove it about 1 mile and then made a right turn into gas station. Sure enough it stalled out. I waited about 15 minutes and it started up, I drove it back about 3/4 of a mile and it stalled out on a straight away at about 25 mph heading slightly down hill. This time it took a wait of about 30 minutes before she would start again. I've gone back to the shop manual and will now swap around the three utility relays (windshield wipers, eccs and fuel pump) to see if it is a bad relay. If not, then my next stop would be to do a complete diagnostic on the fuel pump./ I notice that the fuel pump flange will not clear the access port in the bed of the back cargo compartment, so assume I will have to drop the tank. Anyone have a recommendation or observation for me? I am hoping it isn't the eccu .. I priced those on ebay and one costs almost as much as I originally paid for the Pathy ($500). The old gal has been running very well for the past year since I put in a second engine with only 150K miles on it (first one blew valves 3 and 6 when the timing belt broke and I had to run it on 4 cylinders for a couple of months after pulling the plugs and injectors for 3 & 6. I've taken it on several longish road trips with no problems. So, I assume that this is a new issue. The only possible things which have changed just prior to the stalling was installation of four new tires and an oil change with filter. I've checked the usual culprit .. the MAF connector but it seems tight and does kill the einge when removed and allows a restart when replaced. Request assistance from the rest of the old Motor Pool NCO's :-) please! Many thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 How did you vaccuum ou tthe tank? Did you pull the float assembly/fuel pump? (which if not DOES clear the access door if that's what your thinking won't fit) If so, did you chech the sock at the bottom of the pump? You have means to check fuel pressure to make sure your pump ain't weak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nismothunder Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Then dont turn to the right?Fuel control moduel maybe,it'll stall out,but I've never heard of one to keep doing it,its always a one time deal,it just wont restart until it gets a new one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 How did you vaccuum ou tthe tank? Did you pull the float assembly/fuel pump? (which if not DOES clear the access door if that's what your thinking won't fit) If so, did you chech the sock at the bottom of the pump? You have means to check fuel pressure to make sure your pump ain't weak? I used a shop vac with a 1" clear rubber hose to vacuum he dregs up from the tank. Outside with a fire extinguisher etc etc for the nervous nellies out there reading. I did not completely extract the fuel pump because it would not clear the access hole in the back deck. I did not reach the sock ... I haven't checked the fuel pressure yet ... I'll do that tomorrow. I've had goo luck with Porsche fuel pumps, pulling them out, dunking them in a bucket of kerosene and then reversing the DC terminals to run the pump backwards. All kinds of junk comes out when you do that. Worked fine on a couple of Porsche 928's I had. Next step is to test pressure and change the relays around. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 Then dont turn to the right?Fuel control moduel maybe,it'll stall out,but I've never heard of one to keep doing it,its always a one time deal,it just wont restart until it gets a new one... I seem to remember reading that J Edgar Hoover wouldn't let his driver make any left turns .. anyway .. I didn't suspect that the control module was bad mainly because the problem was intermittent and only on turns. But maybe an intermittent connection in it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 OK, I've followed up on a couple of ideas. First, I swapped around the relays after testing them with my VOM. They check out OK. I ran the vehicle at high idle with the hood open and A/C/ full on for about 30 minutes. No problems. I closed the hood and continued the run. Within a few minutes, the engine stumbled and died. It re-started but then when I let it begin to idle it died again, So now, I am thinking there might be heat problem perhaps with the fuel lines or the filter (premature vaporization of fuel due to heat). So, my next step is to run new rubber engine compartment fuel lines, which I was going to do anyway, and make sure they have heat shields in place. I will go ahead and replace the fuel pump relay. If these steps don't work then it is back to the fuel tank and drop it, then pull the fuel pump out completely. I was going to put a picture in here but can't seem to figure out how to do it ... Cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frecklecolouredbrain Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 did you check the harness connector for the fuel pump? I had an issue with a loose connection there a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 did you check the harness connector for the fuel pump? I had an issue with a loose connection there a while back. Thanks for the reply. I checked at the time I pulled the fuel pump partially out of the tank. The four white plastic caps were firmly seated and none of the wires showed any cracking or fraying. But that would be a stealth problem. I've ordered a new fuel pump from RockAuto, so I'll see ow that plays out. I am going to drop the fuel tank when I pull the fuel pump. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkfinder Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) Hey Dave, I just installed new headers and have been having similar idle/stalling issues ever since. While my engine temp gauge reads about the same as before, I've noticed a lot more heat under the hood being dissipated by the header pipes, which happen to be adjacent to the fuel lines and filter on the pass. side. So I'm wondering if the heat/gas vaporization is an issue for me as well. Did you have any success with "..new rubber engine compartment fuel lines...and heat shields in place"? If you've found another solution or something I should try please let me know. Thanks, Mike Edited July 27, 2010 by Punkfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hey Dave, I just installed new headers and have been having similar idle/stalling issues ever since. While my engine temp gauge reads about the same as before, I've noticed a lot more heat under the hood being dissipated by the header pipes, which happen to be adjacent to the fuel lines and filter on the pass. side. So I'm wondering if the heat/gas vaporization is an issue for me as well. Did you have any success with "..new rubber engine compartment fuel lines...and heat shields in place"? If you've found another solution or something I should try please let me know. Thanks, Mike Interesting situation. I re-routed the fuel lines using larger caliber 18" hoses and wrapped them in aluminum foil. Then I replaced the fuel filter again and wrapped it in foil. I drove the Pathy around yesterday in 100 degree weather with the A/C on full, making as many left and right turns as I could find. Then bit the bullet and drove to work and back. Not a problem! I do believe that you are correct .. premature fuel vaporization due to heat in the engine compartment. I am continuing to work under the hood -- rerouting the oil filter this week end. I'm looking at new headers and dual exhausts, so I am glad you mentioned the problem in relation to the new headers you installed. I measured the underhood temperature right after stopping and it was 165 degrees ... that was with outside temp of 99 degrees and at a full stop and with the hood just opened. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkfinder Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 I'm looking at new headers and dual exhausts, so I am glad you mentioned the problem in relation to the new headers you installed Thanks Dave. I'll give that a try. If I were you, I'd stay away from Pacesetter headers and spend the extra $$$ on Thorleys. On my Pacesetters, I had to grind out the inside of the Y-pipe so it would fit with my intermediate and that wasn't the big issue... My headers were WARPED on the driver's side, which required a lot of extra work to seal. So they were warped and full of really poor welds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkfinder Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Interesting situation. I re-routed the fuel lines using larger caliber 18" hoses and wrapped them in aluminum foil. Then I replaced the fuel filter again and wrapped it in foil. I drove the Pathy around yesterday in 100 degree weather with the A/C on full, making as many left and right turns as I could find. Then bit the bullet and drove to work and back. Not a problem! I do believe that you are correct .. premature fuel vaporization due to heat in the engine compartment. I used heavy aluminum foil, HVAC tin tap, and some pieces of tin to (hopefully) protect my gas line from some of the heat coming off the sh*tty Pacesetter headers. Afterward, I took the Pathy for a half hour spin and continued to experience intermittent power loss through the first 1000-1500 rpm and stalling when slowing down, making right turns, and when idling. I came back home, and it idled fine in the driveway for 10 minutes. I then took another drive for 15 minutes; power had returned and idling/stalling problems were gone!!! WTF! I'll reply to the forum if the problem returns. Thanks again for the suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted July 27, 2010 Author Share Posted July 27, 2010 I used heavy aluminum foil, HVAC tin tap, and some pieces of tin to (hopefully) protect my gas line from some of the heat coming off the sh*tty Pacesetter headers. Afterward, I took the Pathy for a half hour spin and continued to experience intermittent power loss through the first 1000-1500 rpm and stalling when slowing down, making right turns, and when idling. I came back home, and it idled fine in the driveway for 10 minutes. I then took another drive for 15 minutes; power had returned and idling/stalling problems were gone!!! WTF! I'll reply to the forum if the problem returns. Thanks again for the suggestions. Thanks for the info on the headers and the gas lines. So far so good on the fuel lines. The aluminum wrap looks OK but I think I will apply some aluminum wrapped fiber hose covers overall to make things look ready for inspection by the Colonel. I keep you all posted on my Project. FYI, my last project was a 1978 5-speed Euro Black Market Porsche 928 basket case which included the mummy of a dead possum under the passenger seat. When finished it would pass anything on I-65 except a highway patrolman. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkfinder Posted July 28, 2010 Share Posted July 28, 2010 (edited) Still experiencing the same stalling, idling problem, even when the engine seems relatively cool. If it is a gas vaporization problem, I may not have solved it... While I did cover the gas line pretty well with aluminum foil and tin tape, my fuel line is still RIGHT up against one of the header pipes (with a thin piece of tin wedged in between as a heat shield). There is no room in that area! Should I re-route my fuel line well away from the header pipe before I try the full fuel pump inspection and system/tank flush? Misterfixit: Please let me know if your fuel line rerouting continues to work. Edited July 28, 2010 by Punkfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 Still experiencing the same stalling, idling problem, even when the engine seems relatively cool. If it is a gas vaporization problem, I may not have solved it... While I did cover the gas line pretty well with aluminum foil and tin tape, my fuel line is still RIGHT up against one of the header pipes (with a thin piece of tin wedged in between as a heat shield). There is no room in that area! Should I re-route my fuel line well away from the header pipe before I try the full fuel pump inspection and system/tank flush? Misterfixit: Please let me know if your fuel line rerouting continues to work. Okey Dokey .. I'm back. I replaced the fuel pump ... did a complete visual inspection of the now clean fuel tank using a mirror and light. Then installed a complete new fuel pump; all engine compartment fuel lines are wrapped in aluminum foil and the fuel lines moved away and secured nearest the right fender. You'll all remember that I have already blown out the fuel lines with air and then flushed the whole system with naphtha under pressure. The fuel pump is working fine. I tested it in a bucket of kerosene prior to installing it. Pumped 5 gallons of kerosene from one jerry can to another for about 30 minutes. Finally, and Next, I hooked everything up again and she started up after a few cranks. I ran it with the hood down in place for about 15 minutes. Then took her for a spin around the neighborhood and got as far as the first left turn. Crapped out again with identical symptoms. OK, tomorrow I am going to Pep Boys and buying a new relay for the fuel pump. I am wondering what else it could possibly be? The CD workshop manual that I have suggested that after everything I have done, it may be the ECU. I just can't see that the ECU could be the problem, at least, can't figure out why it would cause the engine to lose fuel supply after a left or right turn. Does anyone have any experiences with the actual fuel tank connections which are soldered to the top of the metal plate whto which the fuel pump is secured? There are four wires (fuel pump DC supply and the fuel level sensor) ???? BTW, I got to have the Pathy running in a couple of weeks to go down to the Huntsville Ham Radio weekend convention. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 (edited) Could it have anything to do with the ignition wiring in the steering column getting pinched, seperated, etc?? The turning left thing is making me suspicious... B I meant turning right... Edited August 2, 2010 by Precise1 Oops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 Could it have anything to do with the ignition wiring in the steering column getting pinched, separated, etc?? The turning left thing is making me suspicious... B I didn't think of that. Ill pull the steering column covers tomorrow morning and also pull the ignition switch. Thank you!!! Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slashjt Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 maybe it's zoolander's truck maybe, when turning right something gets "clamped", like fuel lines or something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 maybe it's zoolander's truck maybe, when turning right something gets "clamped", like fuel lines or something else Hah! I was thinking it was more like haunted by J. Edgar Hoover's ghost ("no Left Turns") Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punkfinder Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 SOLVED!!! My problem may be different than yours, Dave, but the culprit in my case seems to have been a corroded negative battery terminal. Cleaned it with some warm water and baking soda and applied some grease in hope that it will not corrode again. Running like a top now! Perhaps the electrical system was cutting out due to the corroded terminal and this was affecting the fuel pump... So check your battery terminals to rule them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 SOLVED!!! My problem may be different than yours, Dave, but the culprit in my case seems to have been a corroded negative battery terminal. Cleaned it with some warm water and baking soda and applied some grease in hope that it will not corrode again. Running like a top now! Perhaps the electrical system was cutting out due to the corroded terminal and this was affecting the fuel pump... So check your battery terminals to rule them out. Aha! Good detective work. I already have a new battery installed, but will disassemble the existing terminals and clean out all the plugs and connections. I pulled the sides off of the steering column but there is good continuity and connection there. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misterfixit Posted August 7, 2010 Author Share Posted August 7, 2010 (edited) Aha! Good detective work. I already have a new battery installed, but will disassemble the existing terminals and clean out all the plugs and connections. I pulled the sides off of the steering column but there is good continuity and connection there. Regards, Dave OK You all, I have the answer. Picture, if you will, the top of the Pathy fuel pump housing. There are four white caps there. Each cap covered a soldered terminal. When one of the wire solder joints under the white cap is broker, it causes a random intermittent short circuit or interruption of power to the pump. This is exactly what the problem was with my Pathy. After doing ALL of the various things we have discussed above, I used some jumper wires and bridged over from a small stripped section of the feed wires (before the plastic cap) to the appropriate place on the pump. Worked 100%. I removed the plastic cap, using a heat gun to melt it off since it appeared to be heat welded into place as part of the manufacture process. Sure enough, a broken solder connection. Now I will reserve my wrath for whoever designed the non-removable plastic cap and solder connection for a later day. I went ahead and put in another complete unit. Problem solved. While I was at it, I installed new Monroe shocks all around (the old ones could be compressed easily by hand) and a water pump (which had been slightly leaking through the air holes in the housing.I wasn't able to find a simple re-packing kit so exchanged the core. My buddy Carlos is applying 20% tint to the windows and above the A2 line on the windshield. Now off to find a complete set of new weather stripping prior to a new paint job. I've selected Rustoleum 7786402 - Smoke Gray, followed by a Clear Coat. So far so good. Regards, Dave Edited August 7, 2010 by Misterfixit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 Good work!! I have heard of problems with those connections, but I never thought it would be a turn related issue. I'm glad you worked it out and thanks for posting the solution. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westslope Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 (edited) I'm glad you figured out that it was the fuel sender unit. But I'm not sure how that fits with the vehicle stalling when turning hard in one direction. Edited September 15, 2010 by westslope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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