Brakes

[tekazgtr1984]

Hey hey everyone!

 

Hope all is well across the forum. Summer is pretty much over and, for me at least, snow is on the way... *shudder* However, this is the first time in at least 5 years I'm looking forward to snow because I can put my ride to some use and see how it handles the cold.

But I digress... I've been doing a whole lot of research on my truck ('98 R50) and have made the tentative decision to modify the rear drums to a disc-brake conversion. That being said, I'm wondering if anyone has ever come across such an idea, or have already made such an attempt.

I'm quite certain such a modification would cost some serious coinage; even so, I'd like to see if it could be done and what would be required...

If anyone has any useful info or advice, I'd be uber happy!

Cheers!

[Precise1]

Honestly, I'm not sure it will make that much difference in braking as at least 2/3 stopping power is from the front brakes. Still, many people prefer rear disks, if no other reason than easy of maintenance (other than parking brake). No big deal either way....

 

I'm going to move this to the R50 section where it should get more response.

 

B

[daftpup]

Honestly, I'm not sure it will make that much difference in braking as at least 2/3 stopping power is from the front brakes. Still, many people prefer rear disks, if no other reason than easy of maintenance (other than parking brake). No big deal either way....

 

I'm going to move this to the R50 section where it should get more response.

 

B

Hey fellow 'Pigger! I don't really understand why you would want such a conversion.

[FUELER]

I don't really understand why you would want such a conversion.

 

then you have a lot to learn, my friend. Disc are far superior to drums, and anybody who really wants precise and reliable braking power (like me) would want 4 wheel disc.

 

Stole this from some article:

 

DRUM BRAKES

 

This basic design proves capable under most circumstances, but it has one major flaw. Under high braking conditions, like descending a steep hill with a heavy load or repeated high-speed slow downs, drum brakes will often fade and lose effectiveness. Usually this fading is the result of too much heat build-up within the drum. Remember that the principle of braking involves turning kinetic energy (wheel movement) into thermal energy (heat). For this reason, drum brakes can only operate as long as they can absorb the heat generated by slowing a vehicle's wheels. Once the brake components themselves become saturated with heat, they lose the ability to halt a vehicle, which can be somewhat disconcerting to the vehicle's operator.

 

DISC BRAKES

 

Unlike drum brakes, which allow heat to build up inside the drum during heavy braking, the rotor used in disc brakes is fully exposed to outside air. This exposure works to constantly cool the rotor, greatly reducing its tendency to overheat or cause fading. Not surprisingly, it was under racing circumstances that the weaknesses of drum brakes and the strengths of disc brakes were first illustrated. Racers with disc brake systems could carry their speed "deeper" into a corner and apply greater braking force at the last possible second without overheating the components. Eventually, as with so many other automotive advances, this technology filtered down to the cars driven by everyday people on public roads.

 

 

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcente...57/article.html

Edited September 13, 2008 by FUELER

[Alkorahil]

What are you going to use for the discs? Meaning off what kind of vehicle?

[Alkorahil]

then you have a lot to learn, my friend. Disc are far superior to drums, and anybody who really wants precise and reliable braking power (like me) would want 4 wheel disc.

 

Stole this from some article:

 

DRUM BRAKES

 

This basic design proves capable under most circumstances, but it has one major flaw. Under high braking conditions, like descending a steep hill with a heavy load or repeated high-speed slow downs, drum brakes will often fade and lose effectiveness. Usually this fading is the result of too much heat build-up within the drum. Remember that the principle of braking involves turning kinetic energy (wheel movement) into thermal energy (heat). For this reason, drum brakes can only operate as long as they can absorb the heat generated by slowing a vehicle's wheels. Once the brake components themselves become saturated with heat, they lose the ability to halt a vehicle, which can be somewhat disconcerting to the vehicle's operator.

 

DISC BRAKES

 

Unlike drum brakes, which allow heat to build up inside the drum during heavy braking, the rotor used in disc brakes is fully exposed to outside air. This exposure works to constantly cool the rotor, greatly reducing its tendency to overheat or cause fading. Not surprisingly, it was under racing circumstances that the weaknesses of drum brakes and the strengths of disc brakes were first illustrated. Racers with disc brake systems could carry their speed "deeper" into a corner and apply greater braking force at the last possible second without overheating the components. Eventually, as with so many other automotive advances, this technology filtered down to the cars driven by everyday people on public roads.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcente...57/article.html

 

 

Well that is basically true, but doesnt mention at all that drum brakes are better for breaking when you are hauling or pulling a load. IMHO Disc are much less of a PITA to replace, thats the most important consideration to me!

[daftpup]

then you have a lot to learn, my friend.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcente...57/article.html

 

You're not my friend and I do have alot to learn just like anybody. I am aware of disc superiority over drum Fueler....what I meant was would the benefits be worth the cost, particularly on an SUV. It just doesn't seem necessary but it's his dime. Maybe it's my pragmatic side but...

 

The reason you want discs is cuz you drive too fast dude.

[FUELER]

You're not my friend

 

 

yes you are my friend you jerk

 

 

just look art my friends list

 

although i should take you off now u back stabber

 

Edited September 13, 2008 by FUELER

[daftpup]

yes you are my friend you jerk

 

 

just look art my friends list

 

although i should take you off now u back stabber

 

Jerk and backstabber in the same post....hmmm. You'd better start behaving like a new condo owner sir.

[FUELER]

i havent moved in there yet thats probably why im still in a crazy mindstate.

[daftpup]

i havent moved in there yet thats probably why im still in a crazy mindstate.

Yeah but you get my jist right?

[01LE]

I wanna do a rear disc brake conversion too. It's funny I've seen this topic come up a few times in searching most people just seem to ask "why would you want disc brakes drums are fine". Honestly I think the brakes are not all that great. My old car 97 Audi A4 had 4 wheel disc and the brakes where superior in every way. My old work van 04 GMC Savana had 4 wheel disc was a lot heavier than my Pathfinder. It stopped better and had a better pedal feel.

 

There's gotta be a cost effective way to convert to 4 wheel disc.

[FUELER]

Yeah but you get my jist right?

 

Absolutely, i agree with you in the sense its probably not worth the money and labor, for a negligible increase in braking power and precision, esp. in our underpowered SUV's... personally i have felt brake fade before installing my brembo front brakes and hawk pads.. havent felt since, front is defintely more inportant but the rear has 10-20% influence too... but i still think every little bit helps

 

Back to the original question, i copied the following from Mr. Reverse:

 

"

Yes it is possible to convert to rear disc. Is it worth the hassle and expense is up to you. Personally I think the easiest and cheapest way would be to get the entire rear axle assembly from a WD21 with rear disc and the same gears. You will need to modify or have custom parking brake cables made. You will need to replace the MC with one for 4 wheel disc rather than your disc/drum setup. You may also need to replace the load sensing valve if you have one.

 

A couple differences are found between the disc and the drum H233B, most notably in that they are using different axle shafts, backing plates, andobviously the brakes. Also the R50's H233B is a bit different from the WD21 H233B in that it is a 33 spline vs 31 spline.

"

[daftpup]

Ok, now my head is spinning...and it ain't the booze!!

 

Who the whak is Mr. Reverse?

Edited September 14, 2008 by daftpup

[XPLORx4]

Ok, now my head is spinning...and it ain't the booze!!

 

Who the whak is Mr. Reverse?

 

Mr. Reverse is a Nissan master technician who posts regularly on the AC forums and (I think) here in the WD21 forums.

[02silverpathy]

I am thinking that i have never had a problem with the pathy having rear drums...I do agree that super good rotors and pads up front make all the difference in the world!

 

Here is an interesting question...why aren't there any "venting in the face of the drums? After all the face does very little for the set up, a few vents couldn't hurt...hmm maybe they are worried of contaminents?

[Zibi]

I've done a lot of mountain highway driving and have never noticed brake fade, but to be honest you don't really need your brakes that much...even with an auto transmission you can turn off overdrive or downshift to second, and even without, holding your brakes on for the length of a hill is just a waste of your brake pads. Even just in regular driving the few times I've had to brake quickly I was impressed with how well my brakes responded.

 

I'd love to do a rear disc conversion but only because I get a hard on for making my pathy better. I could never justify the cost until I both noticed and was noticably affected by brake fade.

[FUELER]

I've done a lot of mountain highway driving and have never noticed brake fade

 

Maybe it was the brake setup i had. cheap "zimmerman" rotors with federal-mogul thermoquiet pads. I felt serious brake fade not only in the mountains, but even in emergency situations on freeways in the city. And I love engine braking.

 

i switched to brembo front rotors with hawk HPS pads, and had the rear drums machined (the drums had grooves scorched into them) and new shoes and it made a huge difference

 

 

im about to change brake fluid, what brake fluid do you all recommend?

[02silverpathy]

Man, I dig DOT4...flush all my cars with it...it simply has a higher boiling temp...I swear it realy firms up the pedal too! Boiling point is going to be important in the path as it has nice sized calipers however smaller rotors and drum rears that will hold some heat!

[Harvey]

Here is an interesting question...why aren't there any "venting in the face of the drums? After all the face does very little for the set up, a few vents couldn't hurt...hmm maybe they are worried of contaminents?

 

I was kinda wondering this as well... anyone any ideas. I was thinking that not all of the face of the drum is required. If overheating causes brake fade then drilling a couple of holes into the face plate of the drum will help with that and also help with getting rid of water after some deep wading... just a thought... though probably a rubbish one!

[tekazgtr1984]

that's a lot of replies! Thanks everyone!!!

For me, the biggest thing is that drums are brutal when they get wet. In winter, going through snow and @!*% makes the drums basically useless. A 4-way disc set-up would work wonders for braking, esp. in nasty winter conditions and in deep-water situations. Lousy drums

Also, drums rust up and look just naaaaaaaaasty! Discs all around would look damn sexy and serve a real nice purpose.

I'm still researching possible donors for such a conversion... As of yet, I'm still clueless. BUT, I heard some Infiniti QX4 late models have rear discs, as well as its Japanese counterpart the Terrano Regulus. I have yet to confirm this but I'm still researching!

Thanks for the support ya'll! This forum is the shiznit!

[daftpup]

:

Thanks for the support ya'll! This forum is the shiznit!

 

Yeah...it's a fun forum. Especially when you postulate radical, thought-provoking ideas like rear discs. Guys here will jump on that chit and many of them are extremely knowledgeable about modifications especially...and automotive in general.

[arcano]

I agree with FUELER in that braking can be significantly improved without the expense or complexity of a rear disk swap.

 

I had experienced a gradual deterioration of braking performance in my '98, and I had a couple of scares with brake fade. So, when the time came aroung to change brake pads I upgraded to Stillen drilled rotors, Stillen metal matrix front pads and Goodridge Gstop stainless steel brake lines. I also put new OEM pads in the rear drums. I finished the upgrade with a thorough flush and fresh DOT-3 fluid all around.

 

Braking improved significantly. The pedal now feels much firmer, and modulation is very good. I can now lock up my tires easily, which is something I could not do easily before (I have no ABS).

 

Keep in mind, it was not cheap. I spent around $400 on parts and around $100 to get everything installed. Still, its probably a lot less than a rear disk swap (definitely less headaches). So, even though the idea of rear disk brakes sounds very good (and yes, they look sexy), I don't think it's cost effective.

[tekazgtr1984]

Yee yee, I think the biggest issue at hand is cost... but I'm trying to be uber-optimistic in the hopes

that it could be done without me having to sell my soul

Regardless of the rear disc conversion I am definitely going to beef up the front brakes come spring.

I bought the truck with all new pads, rotors, etc. up front so I'll run 'em through winter and wait

till spring.

I'm still wondering if the Terrano (JDM Pathy) did come with 4-way discs or not... If that were the case,

it wouldn't be that crazy expensive to ship in the JDM rear and just swap it on... shipping would be

pretty nasty but meh... I just thought about this idea and my mind kept running with it

Ooops...

This thread is gonna live on until I find out the truth! It must be known!!!

[FUELER]

I had experienced a gradual deterioration of braking performance in my '98, and I had a couple of scares with brake fade. So, when the time came aroung to change brake pads I upgraded to Stillen drilled rotors, Stillen metal matrix front pads and Goodridge Gstop stainless steel brake lines. I also put new OEM pads in the rear drums. I finished the upgrade with a thorough flush and fresh DOT-3 fluid all around.

 

 

Sounds like an awesome setup!!