syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) First off, this is the best forum I have seen of any type. Ok, business .. waterpump needs changing, so I have torn it all down .. and when I removed the timing belt tensioner, the camshaft sprockets moved ... The drivers side jumped about 3 cogs to clockwise (as you look at it from front) and the passenger jumped counter clockwise about the cogs. I have read posts on installation of the timing belt and don't quite get alignment techniques. I am uploading a pic to demonstrate. Now finally my question: Is one possible technique to align simply turning the camshaft sprockets one revolution until the marks that I made align again? Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 No...you should probably rotate them back exactly the way they were to prevent smashing a valve against a piston yourself, which is what you're trying to avoid in the first place by changing the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Ok I agree however there is quite a bit of tension going back to where they were when I marked them prior to removing the belt. Any sugestions? Is it fine to crank them back with say a wrench on the sprocket bolts? ( if I have two buddy's with me) or I wonder if they will get pulled back if I instal the new belt and add tension. BTW, the belt I bought is not OEM, and it has three marks on it. errrrm what for? Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 the marks should line up with marks on all 3 sprokets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) surely just lining up three marks doesnt get me there.... or does it? If so, how do I know that I have all marks in correct position. All must be on outside area of rotation so that I am able to know that marks are lining up . Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 TDC and the marks. you could also count the number of teeth in between. search and you may find those numbers. i don't remember what they are. sthey've been posted them more then once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fondo Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 There is 133 teeth total on the belt; there should be 40 teeth between the timing marks on the left and right side camshaft sprockets, and 43 teeth between the timing marks on the left-side camshaft sprocket and the crankshaft sprocket. This is what the chilton says. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 ok ..... if you ever need any good advice about sportbike suspension, I am your guy ... but top dead center .. etc .. I need your help, anyone interested in talking on the phone??? I am happy to call anywhere in NA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperSon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) There is 133 teeth total on the belt; there should be 40 teeth between the timing marks on the left and right side camshaft sprockets, and 43 teeth between the timing marks on the left-side camshaft sprocket and the crankshaft sprocket. This is what the chilton says. Hope this helps. So theres 50 from the right side cam sprocket to the crankshaft? Ive seen a lot of post in replacing timing belts and all are pretty straight forward install but this is the first that Ive seen this happen. Ill be following this thread and hopefully syazoo can get some answers to his problem and let us know.Interesting. Also on TDCing it right now is another interesting question coz the belt is already off :confused: Please keep us posted syazoo Edited February 6, 2007 by SuperSon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperSon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 ok ..... if you ever need any good advice about sportbike suspension, I am your guy ... but top dead center .. etc .. I need your help, anyone interested in talking on the phone??? I am happy to call anywhere in NA Ive asked the TDC question so many times here and according to some it can be done a few ways. One is to mark the distributor cap cover where its aligned with spark plug #1 and transfer that mark on the side of the distributor housing so that you can still reference it when you take the cap off.That mark has to line up with the rotor Another is by pulling spark plug $1 and sticking a long tie wrap in there and crank on the crankshaft with a wrench till you see that tie wrap is all the way up If you like I can take pics on how I marked my distributor tomorrow. Only problem with yours is your belt is already off and I am not sure how you can get it to TDC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Well an effort of taking pics and creating a how to is very generous. In my case, I did mark both camshaft sprockets and the crankshaft... alignment marks to the block on all three. The camshaft sprockets jumping when I took the timing belt off were a surprise to me. Point is that I ought to have a reference because of marking. It seems that a few of us would appreciate the TDC and sprocket alignment advice. The reason that I was confident enough to tear into this job is because of how to postings on this forum. I have been smiling through the entire job so far because it has been relaxin, easy and quite fun. I am pretty confident that someone will make sense of this so I will continue to smile through this project. I am only 160 in parts including buying a harmonic balancer puller. This is great. Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fondo Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Remember the #1 piston must be @ tdc on its compression stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperSon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Looking at your marks it seems that the crankshaft mark on the engine side is not in the right spot. After reading up on how tos on timing belt replacement theres supposed to be a factory mark or notch on right side of the crankcase or whatever its called . Hope you dont mind me using your pic in doing a little editing where the arrow is pointed That crankshaft alignment just doesnt look right. I have not done this personaly just going by the chiltons manual and some of the post here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Best of luck finding the factory mark on the Crankcase. No one has yet. Here's what you do....... Align the punch marks on the two cam sprockets to the marks on the inner timing cover. Put the new belt on with the 2 markings aligned to the same marks. The 3rd mark should line up with the punch mark on the crankshaft sprocket. If it doesn't, you're out of time. I have done the belt change twice, and I've never found the mark on the block for the crankshaft. I just use my belt to show me where the sprocket should be, and I've never had an issue. In my opinion, and it looks like it's too late for you, the best way is lining up the camshaft sprockets with their marks on the inner timing cover. That ensures that the crankshaft is in it's proper place. Then just don't move anything when you re and re the belt. Then double check your marks. Oh, and be sure once you have the new belt on, that you crank it over by hand a couple of times to make sure nothing is interfering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 Sadly, I do not see anything that looks remotely like marks on the inner timing cover. I also do not see a mark on teh crank sprocket. In that photo, I was not marking any punchmarks. I was marking the position of everything before I removed the belt with the thinking that if it went back together with the marks lining up again, how could I miss. The crank has not moved, so I am good there... and so I think I am going to give a shot at getting this new belt on and try to line up my white out marks by turning the sprockets. The L sprocket does have the punchmark on the outside at the moment, so I think that I will be able to line up the marks on the belt a bit with the cam sprockets by counting teeth.... I am not hopeful that I will be succesful, but I need to kill time waiting for someone to push me a bit farther in the right direction. Super, that mark you have3 pointed out in the pic is a yellow dot on a "washer" that spins freely on the shaft. I think I understand best the suggestions about aligning the marks on the sprockets. Sorry that I cannot see them, Simon do you ( or anyone) know where those marks on marks on the inner timing cover may be? and does that method insure the crank is in the right position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Yeah....as long as all your marks line up....you should be fine. Be sure to transfer your marks on your old belt, to the new belt....that way you know everything will be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Ok, well that was going so well ... maybe it still is but I have a q before proceeding. There is 27 teeth difference between my two camshaft sprockets. The white lines in the aftermarket belt I bought do not line up. The marks are three teeth off. The belt markings are seperated by 30 teeth. So, did my belt previously jump three teeth? I know that the sprockets arein exactly the place as they were before removing the old belt. Wudda you think guys? If it was correct before removing the old belt should I just put it together? Or, do you agree that my suspicion of out of time is the case? Ok. I just went out and counted the number of teeth on the belt between left and right sprocket punchmarks. There is 40. This is what someone has said in this thread. given the other information in this post, what do you guys think. Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Alright.....I don't know what you've done here. There are punch marks on the cam sprockets, and the crankshaft sprocket. You'll have to remove the washer thing to see it. The marks on your new belt should line up with the punch marks on the sprockets. If not, something has moved, and you'll have to start from scratch. Which means, find TDC, and align the cam sprockets to the marks on the inner timing covers (also punch marks) and go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 did you start at TDC or not? i think i'd try to get the old belt back on, if it is marked, and get everything back to way it was then get it to TDC if you didn't start there. the cam sprokets have dimples in them (on the face where the wholes are below the teeth) and there are similar dimples on the housing. left one should be somewhere between 10 and 11 o'clock and the right one between 1 and 2 o'clock when alligned properly at TDC. mnost don't have the mark on the housing for the crank sproket but it should be somewhere around 4 or 5 o'clock, iirc. TDC: this is how i do it and it's pre disassebly: pull plug #1. stick a wooden dowel in the hole, phillip's screwdriver will work too. crank the crank by hand (wrench) untill the piston in #1 is at the top of it's stroke. then check the rotor to see if it's pointing in #1 wire position. if it's 180deg off then you need to crank the whole thing over untill the #1 piston is at the top again. so, piston #1 at the top of it's stroke and rotor pointing towards #1 wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syazoo Posted February 6, 2007 Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Agreed. Start from scratch. I believe that the old belt jumped three teethand that is why the marks dont line up. I have located all of the punchmarks on the sprockets. I have not located the marks on the housing, but maybe I just need to clean a bit to see. Ok, do I understand you correctly: 1 Turn crank till rotor is pointing at #1 wire and piston is at TDC (pushing a dowel or whatever to top of stroke) 2 Line up dimples of cam sprockets to dimples on housing. This should force belt marks to line up with sprocket marks. Is cyl 1 Right hand side front? Thanks for the patience guys. Edited February 6, 2007 by syazoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Cyl 1 is front left, if you're looking at the engine from the front. And yes, the rest is right. Work from there, and you should have no problem lining up the marks on your new belt, with the marks on your sprockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperSon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Here's what you do....... Align the punch marks on the two cam sprockets to the marks on the inner timing cover. Put the new belt on with the 2 markings aligned to the same marks. The 3rd mark should line up with the punch mark on the crankshaft sprocket. If it doesn't, you're out of time. In doing this alignment ,Will it matter how many times you crank the cam sprocket clockwise to line up with marks on the back cover? and when its all lined up..the 2 cam sprocket marks and the crankshaft you can then mark the housing for future reference right? The most important thing is its at TDC first before lining up those 2 cam shaft sprockets? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madhatter_xe Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) This picture should give you a good idea of what things should look like when lined up correctly. Note the red arrow pointing at the dimple that needs to be lined up with the indent on the cam. Timing Pic Superson, The last time I did the timing belt one of the cams jumped a bit and I just rolled it back (counterclockwise) to where it was before and put the belt back on. A good way to know your reference points is to make sure all the marks line up before you take the belt off, then if it jumps you know where to roll it back to. You shouldn't be able to bend a valve cranking it by hand...you should hear a clunk as you're cranking it and know to stop. You might as well mark the housing for future reference. I just put a small scrape in it with a chisel. Edited February 6, 2007 by madhatter_xe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SuperSon Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) Great.Thanks Madfinder, Pic is always helpful Edited February 6, 2007 by SuperSon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PathFound Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Yikes. Posts like this one makes me just want to bring my truck to a mechanic to get the T-belt and waterpump changed. I know I'd screw something up. Plus I don't have all the tools. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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