Car makers post record years

[Precise1]

So, whats the deal ? The US automanufacturers are in the toilet, other than Chrysler but then they don't count since they are Daimler-Chrysler, not Chrysler-Daimler...

BMW shows record sales at $63 billion and Porsche made about $1.2 billion NET PROFIT!!

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6301643.stm

 

Ok, they have good technology, and engineers, but so does the US. US cars are generally cheaper, but not necessarily. Generally, US cars are crap compared to european counterparts(I won't even bring up Japanese), even considering a moderate price difference. WTF ?? Being in the manufactoring sector, I have some idea why. Out sourcing manufacturing and fat management.

The US has been steadily outsourcing manufacturing of parts; metal, plastic and all else as it is cheaper. But you get what you pay for. Cheap crap. Meanwhile, the US further degrades it's industrial sector to the point where companies either strive for elite markets or churn out crap at a cost competative basis with their overseas counterparts. I have seen enough to know.

Fat management is also a bane. There are easily 20% too many poeple in management. They either struggle to justify their existence, consistantly make poor decisions due their holding positions over technical areas they have little comprehension of, or both.

When will the US realize that talking about it doesn't get the job done, that quality is what matters (even at an inflated cost), and that their technical people are to be believed and supported ?

 

Sorry for the rant, but this has been building for years.

 

B

[govols74n]

You are right...when I was in Germany a few years ago I bought a 1990 BMW 320i, nothing too special, it was old, had almost 300,000 km on it and still ran 240 km/hr....around 140 mph like it was a cake walk....drove it every day and never had an issue....then sold it 3 years later for more than what I payed for it....it's all about the quality. That little thing was built to last forever. We Americans buy disposable cars....pure garbage that wont last 10 years....(Ford) :oops:

[88pathoffroad]

This is true. Most people are happy and clueless with their tissue-paper cars made in the US. Imports like BMW's are generally considered luxury cars, in the high price range most people don't even consider when choosing a new car.

 

I think the only way to change things like this is to rise to the top and become the CEO. Then YOU could make those changes and decisions needed to make the company run efficiently.

[SC88Pathy]

This all goes back to the very beginnings of autos. In the beginning the only Europeans who demanded autos were the rich, and they wanted "fine driving machines." However in America everyone demanded a car, simply because there's more distance to be traveled in the US, hell most of our states are bigger than some European countries. So Americans demanded simple autos that would get them from point a to point b. Thus a difference in manufacturing methods and approach to designing cars is engrained in our history.

[Vsicks Pathy]

This all goes back to the very beginnings of autos. In the beginning the only Europeans who demanded autos were the rich, and they wanted "fine driving machines." However in America everyone demanded a car, simply because there's more distance to be traveled in the US, hell most of our states are bigger than some European countries. So Americans demanded simple autos that would get them from point a to point b. Thus a difference in manufacturing methods and approach to designing cars is engrained in our history.

You obviously have not been to Europe. It is huge... MASSIVE. It seems small when looking at one country only. You have to look at the whole.

 

You drive accross only 3 states here (East coast to West coast). How many states would you have to cross in the US East coast to West coast. The distance traveled is the same. It doesn't mean one place is larger than the other.

It's all comparitive.

 

European cars are not all fine automobiles. Fiat (Fixing It Again Tony) are POS that rust away in no time at all. Opal used to be, and some still say they are, POS too. Skoda...... and the list could go on and on. What killed your market is too much profit taking. Always wanting more for the greedy, demanding share holders and cutting corners to give it to them. The bubble has burst and now they are covered in sh!t. It happend here too.

 

Now in Australia, we are now making quality Chevies for "your" market and the Middle East. The Pontiac and the soon to be produced Camaro are designed and built here. We can not compete with the asian imports from Korea and soon China. Our current Federal Government has decided that 0% tarrifs are a good thing. We get burnt by the Asian car companies that flood our market because they have tarrifs (up to 25%). It is not possible to enter that vast market at those rates to compete. We do succesfully export our luxury Statesman into Asia though. It is rebadged as a Chev for some reason?? The only thing that is keeping our local car manufacturing alive is build quality and inovation. Because of this, we have demand for our product overseas.

[Precise1]

think the only way to change things like this is to rise to the top and become the CEO. Then YOU could make those changes and decisions needed to make the company run efficiently

 

Unfortunately, I do not have the political BS mentality to even get close to CEO. Perhaps if upper management dealt with facts and reality, rather than blowing smoke and presenting things to their own benefit...

 

When Chrysler and Daimler merged, I remember an interview with the CEO of Daimler. He basically addressed the different pay scale; he made 8,000,000 (flat rate) a year and stated that was too much. CEO of Chrysler was making up to 26,000,000 with bonuses, options, etc. His attitude was WTF, who is worth that and whats with the bonuses ? You are supposed to do a good job, regardless. Thats what the pay is for; if you don't do well, you should lose the job...

 

Americans demanded simple autos that would get them from point a to point b.

 

Ok, I never considered that and it seems to have a ring of relevance, but what good is a simple auto that is not reliable (relatively) and has dramatic resale loss ? Simple and crappy are not synonomous (sp) !

 

 

What killed your market is too much profit taking. Always wanting more for the greedy, demanding share holders and cutting corners to give it to them.

 

Exactly V6!

 

The only thing that is keeping our local car manufacturing alive is build quality and inovation

 

Seems like the foundation, doesn't it ?

 

I had a neighbor who was a tow truck driver who basically stated that he owed his livelyhood to american cars, that he towed FAR fewer imports then their market share would indicate all else being equal.

 

B

[mws]

I so agree with you. American engineers and manufacturing folks are capable of building the absolute best, but are never allowed to.

 

Another big nail in Detroit's coffin was 40 years of "business management" being driven by the cost accountants. Millions and millions of little decisions made based on "which is cheaper to make".

Trimming costs is a key part of manufacturing, but like all things in life, moderation and knowing when to stop is key.

Saving $10.23 per car by using ABS plastic in the interiors is but one example. Sure, you save $10.23, but then the car rattles, falls apart, and has all the tactile pleasures of a cheap blow up doll. 99.9999% of car buyers would gladly pay the few dollars to have an interior that looks, feels, and sounds good. But that didn't stop GM from producing some of the most horrible interiors ever built.

 

I worked in a GM plant in the late 80's, and it seemed half the engineers were tasked with changing designs and components to make it cheaper to manufacture. The other half was tasked with firefighting the problems - most caused by cheap components. No one on staff was tasked with making the car better!

 

A friend was looking at a new HHR so I did some research. I found some surprising things. A key one was Bob Lutz basically saying "STOP IT". Build a car that is and feels quality and people will pay the extra few dollars! Something he did at Chrysler before that. Been inside the new 300 yet? From what I've heard, the HHR is light years better than the Saturn Vue that was based on the same Opel platform but under the old philosophy of nickling and diming it to marginal junk status.

 

I am hoping and praying it is not too late for the big two.

Edited January 29, 2007 by mws

[Precise1]

No one on staff was tasked with making the car better!

 

 

That pretty much says it all...

 

This article presents another side of things and tries to distract from the whole 'inferior product' issue.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2007/01/26/news/compa...sion=2007012611

 

B

[94extreme]

come on, they are in their last throes; we are winning; mission accomplished! oh sorry wrong thread.. or is it? -thnkboutit-

 

andrew, distance between indy and denver is roughly the same as warsaw-paris.. smaller? hmmm i don't think so. different mentality. how many fatties are in eu?

 

v6, at x-mas i was at one of my girlfirend's uncle's house and he says 'i have this great GTO.' we go to the garage to check it out.. do you know what it really is? HOLDEN.. smokin'

 

BTW: mercedes, bmw, porsche are not that expensive at all in germany and other eu countries. their "mid-grade" cars are about what our mid-grade cars cost but are far superior to our crap.

 

i don't know why people dump on ford but their quality has always been way better then the redneck bow tie.

 

and i wouldn't trade my 35y/o mercedes for anything brand new coming out of "detroit." not one freaking car. this beast starts on second click of the key even in the harshest winter temps just like it does on the hottest day of the year. the car feels like 50mph at 100. not one freaking rattle. my seats don't have one rip in them. not one. everything still works. (the A/C does not because it needs new ($600) hoses and a charge but the compressor still functions) the ride is superb.

 

which bring me to what b or someone did mention above and my first statement: it's the stupid, stupid.

 

 

p.s. i am a bit surprised none has mentioned unions yet.. hmm?

[Precise1]

i don't know why people dump on ford

 

My mom bought a new Ford Focus wagon and within 18 months (less than 15,000 miles) the tranny needed replacing. She's 70 and it was an automagic so no, she didn't kill it. Smells like trash to me.

 

B

[94extreme]

oh sorry, ford of old.. all new american cars are crap. heard horror stories about the new ford super car too so yeah, you're right but chebby isn't any better. my folks do seem to like their new saturn viu(?) but it also has a 4banger so they aren't complaining anyway.

 

 

also: can the great german engineers fix the heep? ever? lol the new wrangled is freaking butt ugly.

[Vsicks Pathy]

Unions mz? Here they help with all aspects of car manufacturing. Safe work places for example saves down time due to injury etc. Implementation of new process are always run past union members before hand. Again to asses risk etc. Sure, they push for better pay too. With a CEO earning 7 figure salaries some has to try to even the ledger. I was a quality control inspector (6 yrs) with Toyota. In those days wages were about $19.80 an hour. They now are around the 24 or 25 dollar mark with a 35 hour week. These guys work f8cking hard and fight tooth and nail for everything thay get. The living wage gets higher too, it HAS to be matched. My biggest fear is that Me Too (aka, John Howard) is heading down your path of no wage rises anymore. He is making it very hard for unions to function and has all but made the Industrial Relations Commision defunct..

If he stays in power, we too will have people with two or more jobs and still not able to make ends meet.

 

As for your car industry.... Once you hit the bottom you can only go up.

[Vsicks Pathy]

Unions mz? Here they help with all aspects of car manufacturing. Safe work places for example saves down time due to injury etc. Implementation of new process are always run past union members before hand. Again to asses risk etc. Sure, they push for better pay too. With a CEO earning 7 figure salaries some has to try to even the ledger. I was a quality control inspector (6 yrs) with Toyota. In those days wages were about $19.80 an hour. They now are around the 24 or 25 dollar mark with a 35 hour week. These guys work f8cking hard and fight tooth and nail for everything thay get. The living wage gets higher too, it HAS to be matched. My biggest fear is that Me Too (aka, John Howard) is heading down your path of no wage rises anymore. He is making it very hard for unions to function and has all but made the Industrial Relations Commision defunct..

If he stays in power, we too will have people with two or more jobs and still not able to make ends meet.

 

As for your car industry.... Once you hit the bottom you can only go up.

I forgot to mention... I was the union rep at Toyota for most of those years.

 

 

I call Jonh Howard "mee too" because he waits for whatever the USA says and then says... Mee too. I stole that from the mufti.(sp?)

[SteveWA]

All I can say is that there are too many people on this planet. The more people their is the more people that will be unhappy about one thing or another. I personally think all cars are crap quality. Name me one car that no one has ever had a bitch about? Not one car made in any country, no matter the quality is worth it. But regardless I have to drive because I can't walk to work. So I pick a car that I think may get me there and back. And most days every car I have owned has done that for me.

 

And every car I have owned hasn't as well. I have owned Chev's, Ford, Nissan, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Opel, Mazda, Toyota...Not one of those cars hasn't failed me at least once.

 

Sure there have been some cars I've owned that I have liked better than others. But that has been merely my personal preference.

 

All I can say it's lets face it. No one is perfect so therefore no one will ever produce the perfect car. We'll all fight and disagree, have wars, kill each other and one day no one will be left and the cycle may or may not start over again.

 

So sure the execs make too much money, but so do I for what I do. If we all made $5.00 a year a car may cost 1 cent. And we'd still complain it's too much. So where does it end? Well it doesn't.

[Precise1]

I have owned Chev's, Ford, Nissan, Jeep, Mitsubishi, Opel, Mazda, Toyota...Not one of those cars hasn't failed me at least once.

 

I think the point is that some are worse than others, especially at similiar prices. Then there is the fact that the US manufacturers are going belly up while imports are profitable, even with tariffs...

 

Getting to that point V6, I think the US auto unions are part of whats killing the industry. The few auto workers I've met were lazy, demanding farkers that I would never hire. Look, if the plant closes for a week or so, they get payed 95% normal wage to stay home. Must be nice...

If you can't handle a job that may not be consistant, time to look for other freakin work !!!

 

B

[mws]

And the retirement and medical benefits the automakers accepted years ago... Holy cripe! I understand that over $1000 from each automobile/truck sale goes just to cover benefits for RETIRED autoworkers! And as sales go down, the burden per car just keeps going up and up. Might be closer to $2000 per unit for GM by now....

 

A great deal for the retirees, but a huge albatross around the neck of the automaker.

 

It's pretty disturbing that the average person on an automobile assembly line is paid 3 to 4 times (in total compansation) what any other similarly skilled person in any other industry makes.

 

Back in the '80's when I was at a GM plant, the average annual income for a UAW worker was WELL over $75K per year, with full medical, dental, optical, and bunion coverage for the entire family, and a pension plan on top of that! That's closer to $150K per year in total compensation. It was a source of irritation for the engineers and most managers, who were paid significantly less.

 

How does the UAW expect the big 2 to survive with those kinds of HUGE financial burdens? I've heard they are starting to wake up and recognize reality.

[Vsicks Pathy]

Those work place packages seem too good to be true. 75k plus the extras in the 80's. Fark! thats good money. Around 200k in todays speak. Whats more amazing is that the car companies were profitable then???????? They must be the only workers able to live in the US at the moment without have 2nd and 3rd jobs.. No need to be a doctor when a factory job pays like that.

 

I would have thought that, like here, the Unions best interest is to have a viable market place. Without an industry there is no relitive Union. No jobs all round.

 

I will have to look into wage structuring for the US auto industry. Those figures seem outragous to me.

[Vsicks Pathy]

Getting to that point V6, I think the US auto unions are part of whats killing the industry. The few auto workers I've met were lazy, demanding farkers that I would never hire. Look, if the plant closes for a week or so, they get payed 95% normal wage to stay home. Must be nice...

If you can't handle a job that may not be consistant, time to look for other freakin work !!!

 

B

I too have encounterd lazy workers. They go from the bottom all the way up to the top. They should all be taken out and flogged. You and I both know that this is the exception though.

 

As for being paid to stay at home... I would expect that this would be a ceiling agreement. Some industies have similar agreements here too but for the most part the worker uses his or her entitlements. Ie. long service leave, annual leave or rosterd days off to make up down time.

[94extreme]

i worked as an outside contractor in a few car factories here and these folks hardly ever worked but still got paid the good money. on average they probably worked only about half the time the rest they spent playing cards and fornicating. toyota and such are a much different story.. no quotas.. just full days work for the pay.

 

i also worked in construction and it was union. i couldn't believe i was getting paid $15/h (early 90s) to dig ditches.. i didn't complain but that was way too much.. as a non union carpenter i made ~$10 and the skill required is way higher then that required for ditch digging.

 

btw. i love my mercedes.. no issues.. pretty much the same story with both of the pathfinders i have had in my possesion. my fords were hit or miss. one was excellent while the others were.. well.. so-so.. the chevy is a POS.

[mws]

I would have thought that, like here, the Unions best interest is to have a viable market place. Without an industry there is no relitive Union. No jobs all round.

And THAT is exactly why I have no respect for most American unions anymore. They seem to have lost sight of that fact.

[Vsicks Pathy]

I read with interest an artical today (Herald Sun) about why the US car companies are failing. Along with the poor build quality the main factor seemd (in the writers eyes I supose) to be that the US car makers are still producing dinosours. Namely huge cars "stupidly referred to as SUV's." Cars that are huge just for the sake of being huge.

Apparently the Camry has been the top selling car in the US for the last 10 years too and Ford, Chrysler (apparently they aren't doing to well with quality either) and Chev were just too stupid to change.

Anyone with half a brain would have looked at the size of the imports and balanced that with running costs and then adjusted their product accordingly. I did say half a brain.

 

I will see if I can find the artical on line. If I do, I will link it.

Edited February 2, 2007 by Vsicks Pathy

[FUELER]

The new pathfinder is a V8 with 3 rows of seats.

 

DId the japs read about American stupidity? Maybe that is a very smart move by Nissan....

[88pathoffroad]

Well, they ARE being built in the US now.

 

My '83 Chevy van has over 230,000 miles on it and it still rolls along at 85 if I push it.

 

It's had three different engines, two transmissions and a lot of abuse, though. Right now, the trans slips(rebuild from AAMCO) and the engine smokes on startup(valve seals, likely), but it gets a rock-solid 12 MPG everywhere I go!

 

Still have to swap carbs (thanks, Martin!) and do quite a bit of work to it though...radiator took a rock hit last week and now pisses antifreeze on the front bumper.

 

[Vsicks Pathy]

The new pathfinder is a V8 with 3 rows of seats.

 

DId the japs read about American stupidity? Maybe that is a very smart move by Nissan....

As for the V8 nissan.. What dimentions is it to be? Will you need an elevator to get in it? I think not. Just because it has an 8 in it doesn't mean it MUST take up 3 parking spots at the local super market. The Japs have been doing 8s for years, I think they know what works. But then again...... Toyota are going to make a "full sized" pick up for the US too. That might just be the final stake in the heart for ford and chev.

 

I think the point being made was that the US cars are BIG for the sake of being BIG. Their size doesn't serve any real purpose. A Tarago has 3 rows of seats too, but it is still only half the size of a comparable US vehical.

 

I just thought the artical made a good argument and when I look next door and see my neighbours POS F250, I am inclined to agree.

[88pathoffroad]

Final stake in the heart my butt. People in the US are ADDICTED to Ford and Chevy. It matters not whether the Chevy has an Isuzu-produced diesel in it, people don't care as long as they see the bowtie they can safely reminisce about the good ole days when Chevy and Ford were about the only trucks you could get that were worth a damn to haul stuff with. We don't have anything else that will do heavy loads or towing!