jj big shoe Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 (edited) I could be writing Chapter Two of my previous Rant, but I ain't got that kinda time right now. I installed a new L&P center link and now it looks like my truck is doing the Cha-Cha. After an alignment, another visit to the same alignment shop, and two more stops at two more shops, no one knows why. It drives and brakes straight, but when you turn the wheel, the inside wheel is at more of an angle than the outside. Turning left or right doesn't matter, it does it in either direction. Instead of this / / or this \ \, I get this / / or this \ \ during slow speed parking lot type turns, enough that you can hear the inside tire being dragged across the pavement a little and at full lock you can really see the problem. Is it the local yahoos that can't get the alignment right, did L&P screw up this CL, or did I bend something else that's affecting the steering geometry? (BTW, none of the shops said anything about bent TRE's or anything and I did tell them about the aftermarket stuff I've done.) I thought maybe I installed it upside down or something at first, but I checked the pics on L&P's site and it's correct. WTF?? Edited January 3, 2006 by jj big shoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Damn, I'm sorry, that is what my truck does with the bent frame horns... Sucks, don't it !! I'm assuming your slashes represent top down view. I'd wonder if that Cl isn't bent or buggared... It sounds like the geometry is off, but I hesitate to guess. I don't remember anyone else ever mentioning anything like this. There is a steering angle adjustment, seems to me like if thats off, it'll throw the tires out during turning while aligning straight. I doubt most shops check, adjust that; they just look at camber, castor, and toe. The steering angle adjusted + toe out maximum + minimum positive camber + minimum positive castor would help (If I'm looking at this right). You have a manual ? Study up on this and ask a 4x4 shop what they think... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sw Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 (edited) its not a case of the idler 'leaning' on heavy load is it? not the idler arm its self but the axis it pivots on..... i my self have a stinkn big brace on my ia, i know Arron made one for his as well i know our idlers are rather weak and if yours is particulally worn, could be worth lookn at. this maybe highlighted now due to the new strong-as cl just pushing the ia around on load. Edited December 19, 2005 by sw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted December 19, 2005 Author Share Posted December 19, 2005 I forgot to mention that I installed a new IA and brace at the same time, so that's not it. I didn't know about the steering angle adjustment, is that a Nissan thing? When I get the time, I'll ask a dealership shop about it and see what they say. Thanks for the info guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 Yes JJ, it is new to me also. The steering angle adjustment "is adjusted by stopper bolts located on the inside of the steering knuckle/spindle. Loosen the lock nut on the stopper bolt and turn the bolt in or out to obtain the the proper maximum steering angle..." When it stops raining, I'm going to look at this... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 check the TREs and BJs for loosness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Yup. I'd check the tie rods, UCA bushings, BJ's, tension rod bushings and cups, and the idler arm bushings...just go over the whole front end and check tightness, wiggle, etc. I can't see any real way to screw up the CL geometry by modding it like Lee does because he uses a jig to weld them up so it goes on the same way and angle every time...and the tie rods both bolt on the same as they used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 None of the alignment shops I went to said anything about the tie rods being bent and everything else you mentioned is under a year or two old and hasn't seen that much abuse. There's only a little wobble on the driver's side wheel and that's the bearing (I need to get to that). What about the steering angle adjustment like B mentioned? I'll try to get pics up so youse guys can see what I'm talking about clearly. It's pretty weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Are you talking about those bumper/stopper/bolt things on the lower control arm to limit the turning radius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 One wheel will always lean over more than the other when turning. Look at a Benz, they seem to lean more than most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) One wheel will always lean over more than the other when turning. Look at a Benz, they seem to lean more than most. Huh, gonna have to look at my Mom's SLK. So we're looking at the angle the wheel is leaning over while turning, as opposed to the difference in degree of turning of each wheel one could imagine while looking from above or below? Edited December 21, 2005 by Mr. Pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted December 22, 2005 Share Posted December 22, 2005 Are your slashes top down or front views? If front view, what V says. If top views (looking down: Some amount of this is designed into the suspension and steering geometry of all modern vehicles. Since the inside wheel must go around a smaller radius circle, it needs to turn sharper than the outer. For lack of a better way to describe it, let's call it "steering angle dependent variable toe in" (dam geeks jargon) Are you sure it has changed? Or is it just something you've never noticed before? There are a lot of interactions occuring in the front suspension and steering that affect caster, camber, toe, etc at different steering angles and suspension deflections. But I believe the primary influencer for the variable toe in is the deviation of the angle of the outer tie rod ends from perpindicular to the centerline of the vehicle, and compounded by the difference between the length of the outer tie rod ends (distance from end of CL to outer tie rod end centerline) and the suspension arm lengths (from inner pivot to ball joint). So, unless your outer tie rod ends have changed in length (is the pivot to pivot length of the CL exacly the same as stock? If no, that is most likely it) OR the CL location has moved fore or aft, I don't think the amount of steering angle dependent variable toe in would have changed... Ahhhh.... one other possibility: Are the two tie rod ends adjusted to about the same length? If one is notably shorter than the other, the two wheels will behave differently as one the shorter linked end will have more variable toe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted December 22, 2005 Author Share Posted December 22, 2005 The slashes were supposed to represent a top view, as if looking down through the hood. I haven't had a chance to take a picture so y'all can see what I'm talking about, but I'll try to get a few up after this weekend. I'm guessing its an adjustment that the local shops haven't had a reason to look at before and are stuck scratching their heads since L&P reportedly welds their CL on a jig, plus no one else seems to have had this problem after installing one. I'll prolly have to go to Nissan when I get the chance and get them to take a look-see. Some amount of this is designed into the suspension and steering geometry of all modern vehicles. Since the inside wheel must go around a smaller radius circle, it needs to turn sharper than the outer. For lack of a better way to describe it, let's call it "steering angle dependent variable toe in" (dam geeks jargon) I get what you're saying, but this is a bit more severe than that. It wasn't a problem when I replaced my first CL with another stock one, just after the L&P one. I'll get Nissan to tell me what's up. Maybe they will see something the other shops are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Pickles Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 Maybe your truck had some tough damage to the front suspension or frame before you owned it causing some alignement issues for which you're not aware. But if its somewhat within reason, they should be able to fix you up. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89_trailboss Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 really offtopic, but JJ Big shoe, do you have pics of the JGC center console in you truck? I have one, but curios as to how you monted it. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
87pathy Posted December 29, 2005 Share Posted December 29, 2005 Huh, gonna have to look at my Mom's SLK. So we're looking at the angle the wheel is leaning over while turning, as opposed to the difference in degree of turning of each wheel one could imagine while looking from above or below? its called the acherman angle. All vehicles have it to some degree, its cause in a turn, your inside tire has a tighter radius than the ouside tire. But it should be screatching, could be just a bit out of wack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 2, 2006 Author Share Posted January 2, 2006 Alright, I haven't had time to go by a Nissan dealer yet, but here's a couple pics of what I've been talking about. Pretty strange, huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 2, 2006 Author Share Posted January 2, 2006 ...and this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Hey JJ, you try sending those shots to L&P yet to ask WTF ??? And the wheels are parallel straight, correct ? If you get no answers from L&P I'll CAD up a basic aproximation of the front end as an assembly and play with movements and lengths to try to figure out WTF... I can't seem to see it in my head... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Yeah, they're dead on straight when you're rolling down the road and no pull when braking or anything. It's most evident at full lock like in the pics but I imagine it's progressive, so they're out of whack through the entire turning radius. I haven't sent L&P anything yet because I wanted to have Nissan look at it first. It might just be an adjustment or something I did that's off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) ...on second thought, I think I'll send this to L&P. Mine is the black one and the blue one is straight off their site. Looks like the bearing on mine was welded about a 1/4" further away from the bj hole than on their's. Link to L&P's pic Here's another pic that shows what I mean. Edited January 3, 2006 by jj big shoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Thats definitely different, and I think the offset could be whats giving you the extra 'throw'. Is there a difference between the 2 doors and 4 doors ? Could they have sent you a wrong year part or just a miswelded one ?? I wouldn't be shy about asking WTF, I can't see how it is something you did, but then I didn't watch you install it or count the beers... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted January 3, 2006 Share Posted January 3, 2006 Wow! That is wild, and you were clearly not exagerating. Even with my knowledge of suspension engineering and geometries, I can't quite wrap my brain around an explanation for that much... Are both pivots offset the same amount inwards, or just the one? If just the one, it could be back to my unequal tie rod end theory... Definitely a question for the L&P guys! Those pictures tell a graphic story. Oh, and the amount of deviation from parallel will NOT be linear with the amount of turn. Because of the geometries, it will almost certainly be closer to an exponential curve. So they should deviate only a little bit for the first few 20 degrees or so, and then then the amount of deviation starts building rapidly. The majority of the deviation probably occurs in the last few degrees of turn. If you had someone turn the steering wheel while you watched from outside, you probably see almost no deviation until the wheels are turned pretty sharply, at which point the inner side turns really fast while the outer wheel barely turns at all. I use all the weasel words (almost, should, probably) only because yours is so extreme there may be something else (something really special!) going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 3, 2006 Author Share Posted January 3, 2006 Oh, and the amount of deviation from parallel will NOT be linear with the amount of turn. Because of the geometries, it will almost certainly be closer to an exponential curve. So they should deviate only a little bit for the first few 20 degrees or so, and then then the amount of deviation starts building rapidly. The majority of the deviation probably occurs in the last few degrees of turn. If you had someone turn the steering wheel while you watched from outside, you probably see almost no deviation until the wheels are turned pretty sharply, at which point the inner side turns really fast while the outer wheel barely turns at all. Yeah, I kinda thought so. It's not that noticeable during regular driving-type maneuvers, but you really hear the inside wheel scrubbing the pavement in parking lots and such. I'll post here again with L&P's response. ...the saga continues, plus I feel another rant coming on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted January 4, 2006 Author Share Posted January 4, 2006 (edited) Well, I sent the photos to Phil at L&P and he thinks there was possibly a mix-up and I was sent an Xterra CL. He said he's going to zip another one to me ASAP so there probably won't be a need for another rant, which is quite a relief because my head hurts and my right eye begins to twitch after one of those. BTW, A damn speedy reply and solid customer service focused solution from our friends at L&P. Not the typical finger pointing excuses I get from other places that assume I don't know how to turn a wrench or that I'm whining about something minor. Hats off to Lee and Phil. Edited January 4, 2006 by jj big shoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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