88pathoffroad Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I call BS on the claim of "snapping an axle like a twig" because I HAVE a rear locker, I drive around corners with it locked all the time, and have had not a single problem yet. No noticeably worse tire wear, either. I've only ever seen ONE H233B axle broken, and it was from sustained high-speed wheelspin with a sudden stop not caused by the drivetrain. Did you know that they used the H233B for dually axles on some Japanese heavy duty trucks as well? "Getting out to lock and unlock" is how you allow front axles to spin independently when the diff is welded. Simply lock one hub and put it in 4WD, that'll allow you to turn easily and if you need it, you can lock the other one when you're going slow and steering can go slowly as well. I may weld my front sometime soon and see how it treats me. I think I'll like it if the steering can cope...which means I'll be moving to Heim joint tie rods before too long. The junkyard I live near has like four more gears-matching front diffs if I wreck anything. Maybe I'll figure out how to bulletproof the axles and get the Pathfinder to rock-crawl with the IFS intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) I call BS on the claim of "snapping an axle like a twig" because I HAVE a rear locker, I drive around corners with it locked all the time, and have had not a single problem yet. No noticeably worse tire wear, either. I've only ever seen ONE H233B axle broken, and it was from sustained high-speed wheelspin with a sudden stop not caused by the drivetrain. Did you know that they used the H233B for dually axles on some Japanese heavy duty trucks as well? "Getting out to lock and unlock" is how you allow front axles to spin independently when the diff is welded. Simply lock one hub and put it in 4WD, that'll allow you to turn easily and if you need it, you can lock the other one when you're going slow and steering can go slowly as well. I may weld my front sometime soon and see how it treats me. I think I'll like it if the steering can cope...which means I'll be moving to Heim joint tie rods before too long. The junkyard I live near has like four more gears-matching front diffs if I wreck anything. Maybe I'll figure out how to bulletproof the axles and get the Pathfinder to rock-crawl with the IFS intact. If you are going to weld your front diff the I would suggest you get auto locking hubs and a switch for each wheel. Getting out all of the time would be a pain in the arse. And that is what you'd have to do every time you wanted to turn and evrey time you wanted the front locked. So you have a full time locker and have not ever had a problem with binding? Not even the chirping of the tyre as the inner is forced to spin as quickly as the outer?? What sort of locker do you have then? All manufactures of lockers, that will lock both wheels and not let one spin faster than the other, will warn you of binding/windup when used on a high traction surfaces. FFS the biggest problem with ARB air lockers, even on the track, is that they CAN and WILL bind and do DAMAGE. This is a fact not a figment of my imagination. "An ARB locker should only be used in the dirt when traction is so poor that one wheel is close to loosing traction, otherwise axle windup may occur if used on good traction surfaces." This quote is taken from the link in my first post. An interesting read. http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/3243/index8.html http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Archive/2003_2/4979.asp This site has some good terms. Even has "live axle." http://www.tacomaterritory.com/wiki/index....Technical_Terms Lincoln Locker: More accurately referred to as a spooled carrier, the Lincoln Locker involves permanently locking the front differential by welding the spider gears together so that the two separate axle shafts act as a single unit. In this setup, both wheels will turn at the same speed at all times. As with any spooled carrier, the Lincoln locker is not recommended for use on the street (excessive tire wear, axle binding issues, etc.). Additionally, it is almost never recommended for front axles (would make steering extremely difficult). Lincoln locker gets its name from the Lincoln brand of welding machines, though you can Lincoln lock a differential using any brand of welder. Edited August 2, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) "Getting out to lock and unlock" is how you allow front axles to spin independently when the diff is welded. Simply lock one hub and put it in 4WD, that'll allow you to turn easily and if you need it, you can lock the other one when you're going slow and steering can go slowly as well. I may weld my front sometime soon and see how it treats me. I think I'll like it if the steering can cope...which means I'll be moving to Heim joint tie rods before too long. The junkyard I live near has like four more gears-matching front diffs if I wreck anything. Maybe I'll figure out how to bulletproof the axles and get the Pathfinder to rock-crawl with the IFS intact. Well put 88... I don't have a problem getting out to lock the driver side hub every once in a while. Hell, if nuthin else you can just lock up the drivers side and make whoever's riding bitch jump out and lock their side when the trail gets wild. :o Think of it this way... How many times while on a trail run will the guys that have a front locker even need it or use it? The ones I know of use it as little as possible because of the steering issues and the extra wear and tear on everything involved... The weld locked front has an advantage over the ABR because YOU pick the line you plan on running, and by picking your own line YOU choose where to put the passenger tire since it has all the power... The ABR will act like an open diff till you reach up and flip the switch. I think I'd be able to look up a steep hill from the bottom and decide THEN to lock it up or to leave it in 3wd... Autolocking hubs are weak as hell from what I hear and from a few pics I've seen on ones that looked like a bomb went off inside of'em... I haven't heard a story of someone breaking a manual hub with IFS yet tho. Edited August 2, 2005 by TrailChaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtnnate Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I'm not an expert, but having had several 4x4's over the last 12 years beginning with my very first car ('72 FJ-40) I do have a little bit of experience. Plus I've lived in Utah for a long time and just been around many other well built rigs. I have always locked the rear first. Here's why: 1. Street driving isn't really affected by the rear (except icy roads) 2. Most weight transfer occurs over the rear axle in most areas likely to lose traction (hills) 3. Rear ends are built a LOT stronger than the front 4. You can still steer your rig with the rear locked 5. Descending hills where weight is over the front, your brakes act as lockers any way Most rock crawlers in Utah still don't use front lockers, unless they're trailer queens- most go with limited slips for steering reasons. Has any one tried the 300ZX limited slip? I'd like to try that out next. It would be my first rig with traction in the front. My friend built a Heep locked front and rear and it kinda' sucked. He had to switch out of 4x4 on every turn just to get the thing to go around corners. 'Chirping tires are COOL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 "Getting out to lock and unlock" is how you allow front axles to spin independently when the diff is welded. Simply lock one hub and put it in 4WD, that'll allow you to turn easily and if you need it, you can lock the other one when you're going slow and steering can go slowly as well. I may weld my front sometime soon and see how it treats me. I think I'll like it if the steering can cope...which means I'll be moving to Heim joint tie rods before too long. The junkyard I live near has like four more gears-matching front diffs if I wreck anything. Maybe I'll figure out how to bulletproof the axles and get the Pathfinder to rock-crawl with the IFS intact. Well put 88... I don't have a problem getting out to lock the driver side hub every once in a while. Hell, if nuthin else you can just lock up the drivers side and make whoever's riding bitch jump out and lock their side when the trail gets wild. :o Think of it this way... How many times while on a trail run will the guys that have a front locker even need it or use it? The ones I know of use it as little as possible because of the steering issues and the extra wear and tear on everything involved... The weld locked front has an advantage over the ABR because YOU pick the line you plan on running, and by picking your own line YOU choose where to put the passenger tire since it has all the power... The ABR will act like an open diff till you reach up and flip the switch. I think I'd be able to look up a steep hill from the bottom and decide THEN to lock it up or to leave it in 3wd... Autolocking hubs are weak as hell from what I hear and from a few pics I've seen on ones that looked like a bomb went off inside of'em... I haven't heard a story of someone breaking a manual hub with IFS yet tho. Me thinks thou speaketh with above average logic and wisdom... In other words, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure VSicks ever quite understood the concept of what you're proposing before engaging the naysaying machine... I agree it is very rare you actually NEED the front locked. Usually to get out of a difficult spot - at which point you're probably already stopped, so having someone get out to lock the second hub is only an inconvenience - More of an inconvenience than flipping an ARB switch for sure, but it is also a whole lot less money. For those of us on limited budgets, that is an inconvenience worth considering. As I see it, the only difference between having an open diff and a welded diff with only one hub locked is that with the welded diff, you get to choose which front tire is getting the power whereas with an open diff, the tire with the least traction gets the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Oh, and you have to THINK about what to do and when ... Which answers the inevitable question (surprised it hasn't been asked already!): "Well, if it's such a great idea, why don't they come from the factory that way?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 "Well, if it's such a great idea, why don't they come from the factory that way?" That would be sooo nice... I remember when I first found out that most 4x4's are really 4x2 in truth. I was with a friend in his camero at a girls house. It got late so her dad told us we had to leave... We get in the car and dude didn't want to back out because they had a curving driveway and it was dark. So he decides to go around her dads tacoma sitting in front of us... I guess they had a good sprinkler cause the ground was soggy and wet. We were stuck as soon as the back tire dropped off the pavement. He dad came out to pull us out and for some reason he too decided to drive in the grass. Two wheels on the driveway two in the grass... He dug two nice big holes and didn't move the camero at all.... We ended up calling out a wrecker to pull out her dads taco and then pull out the camero... The tow truck driver had the since to not drive in the grass and simply used his winch from dry ground. Nuff ramblin I got work to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Has any one tried the 300ZX limited slip I saw that also, and like the idea... My truck is for general purpose hauling/driving, winter/nasty weather transportation and camping/wheeling fun. I have no need for welding things up. LSD on both ends sounds like a nice compromise !! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 2, 2005 Author Share Posted August 2, 2005 (edited) I concede, you guys are correct. The rest of the world have sh!t for brains. I don't know why I bothered. Edited August 2, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Has any one tried the 300ZX limited slip I saw that also, and like the idea... My truck is for general purpose hauling/driving, winter/nasty weather transportation and camping/wheeling fun. I have no need for welding things up. LSD on both ends sounds like a nice compromise !! B i think it's prob way cheaper to just throw in a locker there... :secret: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I concede, you guys are correct. The rest of the world have sh!t for brains. I don't know why I bothered. hey don't be lumping me in with them.. i think the front lockers are more widely evelable down under then US thus nobody has one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I concede, you guys are correct. The rest of the world have sh!t for brains. I don't know why I bothered. What's with the attitude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 I concede, you guys are correct. The rest of the world have sh!t for brains. I don't know why I bothered. hey don't be lumping me in with them.. i think the front lockers are more widely evelable down under then US thus nobody has one... I could care less about the front v's the rear locker. With what I have read I know the favoured place to put it. It just makes sense. These guys are now onto welding their front ends. Every artical on this says it is a bad idea and strongly advises against it. There is even articals that explain why it is not a good idea to think you can just unlock a hub and drive around like that. I am 100% sure they don't bother reading link I post so I will not bother posting informative links on this topic again. We have a saying here, you may have it there too. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Anyway, they seem to know better than everyone else. I am sure they know what the're saying. So, no, I don't put you in the same class at all. You have obviously been reading and learning from it as I have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I actually read all the linked articles and couldn't find a single mention of why it is "not a good idea to think you can just unlock a hub and drive around like that". Which is, I believe, what the subtopic was. I do apologize for the thread hijack there - maybe that's what flared the attitude. Every article points out the risk to driving around with front end locked (ARB or lincoln) and both hubs engaged, which was never in question... Could one of the administrators please move the subtopic posts to their own thread? I believe that could lead to more productive discussion. I'm quite done here, but don't want to cease mature discussion on the welding idea. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 i think it's prob way cheaper to just throw in a locker there... Um, good point, I didn't consider the cost... Then I should probably get manual hubs also.... Well, with no job, it's going to have to wait... V6, the whole point to a thread is different opinions. I can't believe that you expected everyone to agree with you ! As for reading, no, not everyone does, here or else where. Sorry, no fix for that... Personally, I have found all of this informative and food for thought. Yes, it wanders a bit, but threads all do somewhat. As for seperating posts, I'll gladly do that, but will wait for a request from the topic's author. Only seems right to me. I believe the topic is "1 locker, front or rear" ? Lets see where it goes... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 (edited) i am good with this sidetrack.. it is a "locker" and all info is good.. i don't necessarily see myself doing that but hey.. it's all good.. Edited August 3, 2005 by mzxtreme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 (edited) I actually read all the linked articles and couldn't find a single mention of why it is "not a good idea to think you can just unlock a hub and drive around like that". Which is, I believe, what the subtopic was. I do apologize for the thread hijack there - maybe that's what flared the attitude. Every article points out the risk to driving around with front end locked (ARB or lincoln) and both hubs engaged, which was never in question... Could one of the administrators please move the subtopic posts to their own thread? I believe that could lead to more productive discussion. I'm quite done here, but don't want to cease mature discussion on the welding idea. Thank you. You will have to read the post directly above you to know what I said. I said that there are articals on why it was a bad I dea to run with only one hub. I also said that I will not post anymore articals on this topic. If you want to know what the articals say, you will have to search for them yourself. Having said that, you did give the distanct impression that you knew what you were talking about in your earlier post. To quote you.... " Me thinks thou speaketh with above average logic and wisdom... (re: 88 & trail's reply) In other words, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure VSicks ever quite understood the concept of what you're proposing before engaging the naysaying machine..." I would have thought that you were speaking here from experience. We all know what thought thought don't we? It's nice to know that I was just being soooo negitive about what was being proposed. It wasn't that I looked at the proposal and took the time to do some research at all. It wasn't that I thought the things I found out would be interesting reading and worth sharing with you guys. NO! So, I indeed understood what was being proposed. My initial thoughts of what was being proposed was that it sounded wrong. I may have been right off the target so I sort information on it. I am here learning as I go what is good to do and what isn't so good. I would hope that if I was about to do something to my car that wasn't so good that someone here would pipe up and say so. No attitude from me here either. Just plain old confusion as to why people are so negitive. It's like the information is there but for some reason, if it's not what you want to hear it is ignored completely and the bringer of this information is branded a neighsayer. Edited August 3, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 i am good with this sidetrack.. it is a "locker" and all info is good.. i don't necessarily see myself doing that but hey.. it's all good.. Me too. sssh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I believe the topic is "1 locker, front or rear" ? Lets see where it goes... B OK, back to the original topic - 1 locker, front or rear? I would say it depends. In some situations, in the front would be better. In others, the rear. Not trying to be flippant, honestly. I think the difference in opinions has to do a lot with what challenges the author of the recommendation is most concerned about. For precise creeping activities (rockcrawling, tight stuff in the forest) I can see the advantage to having the ability to have the key "directional deciding" wheel locked on demand to pull you in the right direction. That would be the front tire with the most weight on it. And for frequently driven street vehicles, it is usually preferable to not have a locker in the rear because of the noise and possible tire wear issues - so that part of the population may give the nod to the front. For steep hill climbing with lots of switchbacks and on the edge traction, I can see significant advantage to having it in the rear - where all the weight is and it affects the steering less. But I think everybody agrees either is far superior to neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimGreg Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Has any one tried the 300ZX limited slip I saw that also, and like the idea... My truck is for general purpose hauling/driving, winter/nasty weather transportation and camping/wheeling fun. I have no need for welding things up. LSD on both ends sounds like a nice compromise !! B i think it's prob way cheaper to just throw in a locker there... :secret: Not if you can get a cheap carrier out of the Junkyard, but a 300Z is a rare find here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 3, 2005 Author Share Posted August 3, 2005 V6, the whole point to a thread is different opinions. I can't believe that you expected everyone to agree with you ! As for reading, no, not everyone does, here or else where. Sorry, no fix for that... B P1, as for the front v's rear... each to their own. As I said there is very little information out there. Which does shock me. As for not agreeing with me about it? I never pushed the front as the be all end all of choise for placement. I did try to see where the independant 'people' would place it. Still there was no right or wrong. But this has been said earlier, I am just repeating myself. If you were refering to the lincoln locker thing, then posting links and other relevant data can't be deemed as my wanting people to agree with me. If I could find anything postive about it I would have posted it too. Others here can post up also if they find anything to support the idea. I would only be too willing to look at it. Besides that, I didn't say it was wrong in the first place. Just pointed out that it might not be a good idea. At the end of the day people will do what they want to do. Yes we all have our opinions and ideas and they are all good. They should also be respected and not shot down for the sake of it. I don't for the life of me want or expect people to agree with me. That would spoil half my fun. I do want informed opinions and replies, not just flaming. This is a good debate. I am learning about things I knew little or nothing about before. Its all good! -study- Now, does anyone want to see a pic of my Pathy when it was stock? Ok, just a little bit of lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 300ZX clutch-type LSD's are RARE. And spendy. Last I saw, they were $500 for a used diff by itself from a junkyard or on Ebay. The 300ZX VLSD's don't work well for offroad, so those aren't a good choice for such a mod. That's what all the Z32's and some of the Z31's came with(VLSD= Viscous Limited Slip Differential, kind of like a Torsen diff). OK...VSicks...look, you're half a world away and have things available to you that we don't get in the US. Namely, the availability of a somewhat cheaper front locker as an option. Here, the only front locker we can get is an ARB, and I CANNOT spend $600 for the locker, $250 for the compressor, and $400 for install. ...hence the speak of welding the front. It's cheap, fairly easy and effective. All you lose is axle differentiation and on-road ease of driving. I can deal with that because I don't have an on-road vehicle. For daily drivers that rarely see off-road use, yes, welding a diff is fairly extreme, and you would need to upgrade to manual hubs to deal with it as an additional cost. I can't think of any additional stresses generated if you simply weld the diff, have manual hubs and wheel with one locked. You'll still always be putting your engine power to one front wheel and one rear wheel if you lift one or the other off the ground. Please prove me wrong with any quoted article that makes sense, OK? Until then, please stop acting like a wounded poet and making it seem like you're being persecuted. Your idea is different, but totally foreign to most of the reading public due to their general home locations, OK? Do we have comprehension? If you want a front locker, get one. Excellent. More power to you, man. Please report back on how well it works for you and we will have one more voice out there with the experience of having actually done it. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 If you want a front locker, get one. Excellent. More power to you, man. Please report back on how well it works for you and we will have one more voice out there with the experience of having actually done it. That is all. here, here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 4, 2005 Author Share Posted August 4, 2005 OK...VSicks...look, you're half a world away and have things available to you that we don't get in the US. Namely, the availability of a somewhat cheaper front locker as an option. Here, the only front locker we can get is an ARB, and I CANNOT spend $600 for the locker, $250 for the compressor, and $400 for install. If you can get a front locker that cheap I'll take two. ARB air locker (new) AU$ 1,400 + compresser $375 + fitting $400. Aprox $1,800 for the auto locker fitted. Dielsboy says he can score one (auto) for about NZ$ 550 second hand. It is a well known fact that you guys in the US are a least half price. Even when your gear comes from OZ we can save 50% by buying and shipping from the US back to AU. Unfortunatley I can not get a locker for my Patrol front end. You guys don't have Patrols there. I am sure this has been said and done before. I will leave the wounded poet crack well alone. Let me know how you go whith your welded diff though. I will not be doing a front locker for a while yet. It takes about 6 months to get over this stupid surgery. You should be able to report back to the board on the pros of the lincoln locker well before I even go 4wding. I look forward to your report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 4, 2005 Share Posted August 4, 2005 I was under the impression that a company in NZ made one for Nissan front diffs just like the PowerTrax Lock-Right. Ah, here we are. Found it. Apparently it's not available for a Terrano or R50 Pathy, but who knows, they may be on the drawing board. They do have one available for the Patrol/Safari front axle, though. $799. http://www.genie4x4.com/diff_lockers.htm They're a simple locker, not selectable, but hey. It's a lot cheaper and just as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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