Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 I am only after expert opinions on where to place a single locker. I have only managed to find one artical so far. If you like, can you guys add more. Nothing from forums though. I just want indipendant expert opinions. http://www.pps.net.au/4wdencounter/articles/difflocks.html Last paragraph. But the whole artical is very good reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Hmm, informative, but leaves it up to the user, their uses and the terrain, as it should be. I'm no offroad guru. I'll qualify that by saying that I have driven 4x4 nissans for 13 years and most of my experience is in a 720 with open diff which I have never gotten stuck. Call it skill, luck or cowardice... My thoughts are that if you have LSD, thats a lot better than open diff, so put the locker up front, not to mention I believe you need an open diff to install a locker anyway. If you have open diff in the rear, put the locker in the rear, no doubt about it. If you can afford it (and are serious about off road) put the manual ARB in back and an autolocker in front. Reason being the front will grab when it can and the rear will push constantly without messing with the steering too much. Anyone who has been in a difficult situation (while moving) knows that accurate steering is important ! I'm no way near on par with 88, Mookie or V6, but with LSD and the suspension jacked, I can creep and claw my way many places. Personally, I play the 'don't get stuck' game, but maybe thats a mentality I learned from month long solo excursions. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj big shoe Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 After pondering the question and a little first-hand knowledge, I would say if you're planning on locking only one axle, you should definately...oh, sorry. You only wanted expert advice, I digress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffman Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Geeee I dont think anyone here is smarter than you Vsicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 LMAO !!, Aww, come on, give him something to tirade about !! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) Geeee I dont think anyone here is smarter than you Vsicks. And none dumber than you. FFS, it's like you lot don't want to know or learn anything. Edited August 1, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) After pondering the question and a little first-hand knowledge, I would say if you're planning on locking only one axle, you should definately...oh, sorry. You only wanted expert advice, I digress. About time too. It perplexes me that people would take the time to post such silly remarks. If you don't like the topic then post else where. If I want the opinion of people that make, install and review the topic matter then stiff sh!t to you. Get over it and please don't waste peoples time with your crap. Edited August 1, 2005 by 88pathoffroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 Hmm, informative, but leaves it up to the user, their uses and the terrain, as it should be. I'm no offroad guru. I'll qualify that by saying that I have driven 4x4 nissans for 13 years and most of my experience is in a 720 with open diff which I have never gotten stuck. Call it skill, luck or cowardice... My thoughts are that if you have LSD, thats a lot better than open diff, so put the locker up front, not to mention I believe you need an open diff to install a locker anyway. If you have open diff in the rear, put the locker in the rear, no doubt about it. If you can afford it (and are serious about off road) put the manual ARB in back and an autolocker in front. Reason being the front will grab when it can and the rear will push constantly without messing with the steering too much. Anyone who has been in a difficult situation (while moving) knows that accurate steering is important ! I'm no way near on par with 88, Mookie or V6, but with LSD and the suspension jacked, I can creep and claw my way many places. Personally, I play the 'don't get stuck' game, but maybe thats a mentality I learned from month long solo excursions. B Yes it does. I read it and posted the link knowing full well what it said. The author does lean toward front install but I still need to see more info. One independant artical is not enough to base any judgement on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffman Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) Geeee I dont think anyone here is smarter than you Vsicks. And none dumber than you. FFS, it's like you lot don't want to know or learn anything. Now, now, now. Calling names and prodding people isn't what we're here for. Yes, he makes some inflammatory remarks sometimes, but he's got good points. Please stop with the ass-hurt attitude, OK? -88 Edited August 1, 2005 by 88pathoffroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 I have both front and rear ARBs. What I can say for a fact is that the steering is unbearably stiff with the fronts engaged. So if you are going to pick one I would do it in rear diff. Both are great if you can swing it. I only use the fronts when going relatively straight up up a hill with little steering involved.---glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 I have both front and rear ARBs. What I can say for a fact is that the steering is unbearably stiff with the fronts engaged. So if you are going to pick one I would do it in rear diff. Both are great if you can swing it. I only use the fronts when going relatively straight up up a hill with little steering involved.---glenn I know that with the air locker in the front it will not want to steer when switched on. It's not the same for automatic lockers though. The auto matic locker is my choise when the time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 LMAO !!, Aww, come on, give him something to tirade about !! B Bernard. I have only sort to seek expert opinion about the said subject matter. I have a preference as does 88, as do we all. We can go in circles forever and a day. I have not vebally attacked anyone about the correct place to put a locker. Nor have I condemned anyone for their preference as you have suggest I have. I want to know more about my chiose. Perhaps it is the wrong chiose. I don't know, do you? I certainley can't make an informed chiose if I do not have any information to go on now, can I? I thought that this would be a good opertunity to expand 'our' knowlege base. Looks like it just opend a Pandoras box of........ Your welcome to discribe the replies for me Benard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 The origianl link seems to be the only indipendant review in the world? I can not find anything else. There are a lot of 4wd sites that are just as split as us on this 88. We will have to call it each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Heh. True. I still stand in the opinion that a rear locker works best for getting you into more places. Getting yourself out is a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 OK, enough ! Creative editing by admin aside, you are getting carried away ! This is to be a constructive site, not destructive site. Whats with the overt antagonism and the name calling ?? What are you, children ? LMAO !!, Aww, come on, give him something to tirade about !! I sorry if that was misunderstood V6, but that was an obvious tongue in cheek to get people to respond, after my personal input on you subject. It was not an excuse for personal attacks ! A bit of friendly sparring is fine, but to start in on personal attacks or goad people on is totally unnecessary and pointless ! Dont even start with the who me crap. Play nice !! No joke !! Bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 Heh. True. I still stand in the opinion that a rear locker works best for getting you into more places. Getting yourself out is a different matter. And I agree with the author of the review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 I've been thinking about this for a while. Trying to figure out if it's on the "stuff I want to do" list for the next pathy... I plan on DEFINITELY putting a powertrax locker in the rear. I'm still not real sure about the front tho. I can't afford the cost of an ABR, but being a welder I CAN afford the cost of welding the side gears to the spider gears. Thing is I'm not sure about the whole hard to steer issue that everyone has while locked. I don't want my rig to be hard to steer the whole time I'm in 4wd. One solution to this problem would be to install aftermarket locking hubs. (MileMarker, Warn...) I could manually lock the passenger side while leaving the drivers side unlocked. Then I could simply jump out when it came time to need the front locked like on steep hills. I could also leave the truck in 2wd while wheeling (since I'll have a lock-rite in the rear) while leaving the passenger side hub locked and only using 4wd when I really need it. I can tell you for sure(last pathy was locked in the rear) that you'd be absolutely floored at what you can do in 2wd with a locker. I realize that you'd have a lot more chance of breaking something on the passinger side cv assembly with it being the sole source for power output on the front end. But wouldn't you be running the same risk with a locker on the front anyway if you had one wheel trying to climb a 10" step, or spinning then having one catch traction? One good thing about always locking the passenger side is that you could carry a spare for just that side. If it breaks fix it on the trail. Or unlock that side and run the other side. :X I've seen a couple of different ways to weld the gears to lock up a diff. One way is to take out the side gears and weld up all the teeth but the ones where the spider gears sit. Here's a pic, Another pic with the spider gears installed as they will sit. This way is suppose to "give a little and be a little looser" I just see it as being weaker... Here's a link to the site where they show how to do this type of locker. Pics and everything... The other way that I know of is to just weld the spider gears to the side gears. The won't be able to rock around and I feel like it would just be soooo much stronger than the other method depending on who/how it gets welded. Here's a pic from a guy on 4x4parts forums that had his diff welded up this way. I hope he got all that weld splatter out before closing it up and running it. Here's a link to the AC forum where that pic came from, and for more on this subject... I'm not an expert, but if I HAD to choose between which end to lock... I'd lock the rear. I hope this helps a little, maybe someone will learn a "cheap" way to lock up there truck. I had no idea about ANY of this stuff before I got interested in offroading and fixing up the pathfinder...[check out some of my first post on here] I can't wait to get a new (to me) Pathfinder. I'm hoping for a 95SE low miles (around 100,000 would be low) glossy black... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Sorry about linking that giant pic, but it does show detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimGreg Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Heh. True. I still stand in the opinion that a rear locker works best for getting you into more places. Getting yourself out is a different matter. If you wanna get out, get a winch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Sorry about linking that giant pic, but it does show detail. you could always link it like this http://users.adelphia.net/~jkbridges/WeldedFrontDiff.jpg or like this the threads load up way fater that way especially for some one who is on dial up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 The origianl link seems to be the only indipendant review in the world? I can not find anything else. There are a lot of 4wd sites that are just as split as us on this 88. We will have to call it each to their own. this is a great topic v6. it's something i have been thinking about for a while.. the prefference here seems to be to lock the rear but in the lands down under seems that everybody locks the front.. hmmm?? i wonder why.. so there is my hint for you.. there are a number of members here that are also members on AU/NZ pathfinder/wheeling boards.. i am sure they must have discussed this at some length.. i just haven't search yet because this is possibly next year's project or sometime in the future and is not on the slate.right now.. gotta fix the damge from this weekend forst.. purely goinig by physics the rear makes a little bit more sence but, personally, i am leaning towards the front locker... the main thing is that you can totaly dis-engage the darn thing when highway driving (2wd) which to me is an advantage.. I am refering to full time lockers (way cheaper then others) + i don't have an open diff in the back and finding one is a bit of a task.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Trailchaser - When I first read your post, I thought that was a bad idea. But then I stopped to really think about what you were proposing. And the more I thought about it, the more I saw the good in it. The loading in 3WD mode isn't any more than when in a locked 4WD mode. The max load occurs when the driver's side is in the air and all of the weight of the vehicle is on the passenger side - and that will be the same whether the driver's wheel is being driven or not. I continue thinking about all the various loading scenarios, and keep coming back to the same conclusion - it shouldn't be any more "hard" on components than an ARB locker. I'll keep thinking, but it sure looks like a feasible low dollar alternative to an ARB. Anybody see something I'm missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) As far as which method to use, "filling teeth" or "weld together"... hmmm... With the filling teeth method, it does allow a very small amount of differential movement - like 10 degrees of rotation. Not enough to cause any loss of traction, it seems it would make it easier to lock or unlock manual hub if it has that small amount of free play. On the downside, all of the drive force for one wheel is focused on fewer teeth of the spider gear. That could be a problem if the spider gears are not strong enough. I know this method has been used on many diffs with no spider gear problems. If the Pathy spider gears are as adequate as others, it should be no problem. With the weld together method, there is the advantage of having the load distributed across twice as many teeth (assuming you can weld both sides). On the downside, the carrier could no longer be taken apart. Not too big of a deal, I guess, as carriers are not that expensive. And it is much more difficult to get in there and clean everything out. Edited August 1, 2005 by mws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) As far as which method to use, "filling teeth" or "weld together"... hmmm... With the filling teeth method, it does allow a very small amount of differential movement - like 10 degrees of rotation. Not enough to cause any loss of traction, it seems it would make it easier to lock or unlock manual hub if it has that small amount of free play. On the downside, all of the drive force for one wheel is focused on fewer teeth of the spider gear. That could be a problem if the spider gears are not strong enough. I know this method has been used on many diffs with no spider gear problems. If the Pathy spider gears are as adequate as others, it should be no problem. With the weld together method, there is the advantage of having the load distributed across twice as many teeth (assuming you can weld both sides). On the downside, the carrier could no longer be taken apart. Not too big of a deal, I guess, as carriers are not that expensive. And it is much more difficult to get in there and clean everything out. Are you talking about the front or rear? If you are talking about welding the front diff, then you'll have huge problems. Being unable to turn is one I can think of. And if you are talking about welding the rear (depending on tyre size) you will bind you axle and break it like a twig. If you don't have large tyres, you will go through rubber quicker. Your inside tyre will break traction when you turn. Getting out to lock and unlock would be a pain in the bum. And what if you are on a steep incline where maintaining forward momentum was paramount? Edited August 2, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted August 1, 2005 Author Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) The origianl link seems to be the only indipendant review in the world? I can not find anything else. There are a lot of 4wd sites that are just as split as us on this 88. We will have to call it each to their own. this is a great topic v6. it's something i have been thinking about for a while.. the prefference here seems to be to lock the rear but in the lands down under seems that everybody locks the front.. hmmm?? i wonder why.. so there is my hint for you.. there are a number of members here that are also members on AU/NZ pathfinder/wheeling boards.. i am sure they must have discussed this at some length.. i just haven't search yet because this is possibly next year's project or sometime in the future and is not on the slate.right now.. gotta fix the damge from this weekend forst.. purely goinig by physics the rear makes a little bit more sence but, personally, i am leaning towards the front locker... the main thing is that you can totaly dis-engage the darn thing when highway driving (2wd) which to me is an advantage.. I am refering to full time lockers (way cheaper then others) + i don't have an open diff in the back and finding one is a bit of a task.. The OZ pathfinder boards are very tame to say the least. Some of the guys that post there have never been off road, EVER! There is plenty on the topic. ALL of the other 4wding forums I look into whilst trying to find expert information had debates on this every issue. There is a distinct pattern. The hardcore 4wding guys lean toward front first, and everyone else is split down the middle. I was supprised that I could only find one review. Given that this topic is debated everwhere I thought that there would have been heaps of stuff about it. If you find anything at all, that is idependant please post it up. I am happy that you found the topic interesting. I htought it was too. Cheers. Oh, I agree with your choise of locker too. You can steer better with auto lockers. Did reading the review sway you in any way? If so how? Edited August 1, 2005 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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