gamellott Posted November 19 Share Posted November 19 (edited) Good Evening Smarter people than me!! I would like to give @Slartibartfast credit for allowing me to pick his marvelous brain to help me come to some conclusions here! I found the attached piece of metal on the magnet on my rear differential drain plug magnet. It's about 10mm wide and it looks like it could have been a bearing race piece... Based on the videos I have seen on the HB233 axle tear down, it doesn't look familiar... There are a couple of tells from the teardown I did while replacing the rear wheel bearings and seals. 1)The nuts holding the axle in place were nylock fasteners and not the traditional crimp lock nuts. 2) My speedo has traditionally read about 10% off, low, compared to the radar assisted speed signs on the side of the road. Based on the tag in the engine compartment, I should have an HG43 pinion. I'm wondering if someone in the previous 20 years prior to my ownership, they had a differential melt down, and the replacement was and HG46? Anyone recognize something like this?? It's been about 30Kmiles since the last oil change on this and aside from this, I have noticed nothing significant, no noises, no wobbling, no grinding.... I appreciate your insight!! Have a great evening!!! Edited November 19 by gamellott credit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawairish Posted November 19 Share Posted November 19 Looks like the indented part of a friction plate guide used in the LSD carrier. Overall width on a new piece like that is 15.5mm, but where yours appears might've broken, I measure about 12.5mm, so pretty high confidence this is it. It installs on the tabs of the friction plates. You can see it in the hole in the pic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 19 Share Posted November 19 Well spotted! What would make it fail like that? Doesn't seem like that tab should have much force on it--it's just there to stop the guide from walking out, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 19 Author Share Posted November 19 It's beginning to look like I need to tear it apart to see if this is actually from the one in it now.... If it is, It's looking like I'm going to have to look for a donor vehicle since new parts for this are basically unobtanium. I guess the question I have now: Could this lead to a catastrophic failure?? Or... should I just gut it and not have LSD?? That is... until I find a suitable donor... And the other question, as originally discussed, is the HG43 compatible with the HG46 since I might have a 46? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 19 Author Share Posted November 19 Amayama seems to have that part available.... Maybe the friction disks as well... A lot cheaper too... There are 2 different options, one is a 1.6, the other is a 1.5.... What's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawairish Posted November 19 Share Posted November 19 5 hours ago, Slartibartfast said: Well spotted! What would make it fail like that? Doesn't seem like that tab should have much force on it--it's just there to stop the guide from walking out, right? I was trying to figure that out, too. I can see that if it shifted a little maybe it could be sheared off by the carrier over time, but if it had sheared off, that piece would've been full width. Because it's short and the cut looks somewhat clean (can't see the angles), I could guess that it could fatigue off...but how incredibly unlikely it'd be to fatigue in two spots. The piece also can't exactly be ripped off...it's a pretty dense chunk of metal. All said, I'm baffled. 2 hours ago, gamellott said: It's beginning to look like I need to tear it apart to see if this is actually from the one in it now.... If it is, It's looking like I'm going to have to look for a donor vehicle since new parts for this are basically unobtanium. I guess the question I have now: Could this lead to a catastrophic failure?? Or... should I just gut it and not have LSD?? That is... until I find a suitable donor... And the other question, as originally discussed, is the HG43 compatible with the HG46 since I might have a 46? Donors shouldn't be too tough to find depending on how many yards you have nearby. HG43 and HG46 just refer to the ratio; the 3rd members can be swapped without issue, just need to be mindful your truck and the donor have disc brakes (should because SE?), otherwise you may need to split the carrier to add/remove a thrust block inside (discs didn't use the thrust blocks, drums did) Could it lead to catastrophic failure? Potentially, yes, because if the remainder of that guide is in the carrier, the lack of that piece on it will allow it to slide out of the hole in the carrier. The piece alone will destroy things if it's caught in the gear mesh, but then also the friction plates lack the piece and may get bashed up. You wouldn't be able to gut the carrier because the clutch pieces provide the necessary tension on the side gears to keep them engaged to the spider gears. 1 hour ago, gamellott said: Amayama seems to have that part available.... Maybe the friction disks as well... A lot cheaper too... There are 2 different options, one is a 1.6, the other is a 1.5.... What's the difference? Amayama is a good source for parts still, but I'll be surprised if they don't cancel the order for the 1.6mm pieces...they should be discontinued (I've tried ordering them a few times). The difference is just thickness and how it contributes to the stack height (thicker stack, higher break-away torque on the unit). I have a write-up here about all that stuff, but it can also serve as a rebuild guide. You'll be better off just finding a donor and having extra parts. I think I may even have enough parts to build up a 4.375 carrier, too, if you're unable to find something local. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 19 Author Share Posted November 19 @hawairishThank You Again!! I guess it's time to park it again, and start tearing into the driveline to figure out if it is from mine. Looks easy enough to figure out based on the videos. I just hate that I dumped $60 in synthetic gear oil into it the other day.... maybe I can figure out a way to filter it after draining it.... sigh.... Junk Yards around here are pretty slim, and they usually take the wheels off to recycle the Aluminum, making it that much more difficult to get to something like a rear differential. But... I do know someone that has an HG46 somewhat available.... and somewhat local.... somewhat.... The mountain pass just closed for the season If the part is from mine, I might be better off trying to get replacement parts online direct from Japan, and cheaper... assuming they're still available. If they are available, It looks like a complete rebuild, sans bearings, could run up to $300. Unless I missed something.... which is a complete possibility.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawairish Posted November 19 Share Posted November 19 53 minutes ago, gamellott said: @hawairishThank You Again!! I guess it's time to park it again, and start tearing into the driveline to figure out if it is from mine. Looks easy enough to figure out based on the videos. I just hate that I dumped $60 in synthetic gear oil into it the other day.... maybe I can figure out a way to filter it after draining it.... sigh.... Junk Yards around here are pretty slim, and they usually take the wheels off to recycle the Aluminum, making it that much more difficult to get to something like a rear differential. But... I do know someone that has an HG46 somewhat available.... and somewhat local.... somewhat.... The mountain pass just closed for the season If the part is from mine, I might be better off trying to get replacement parts online direct from Japan, and cheaper... assuming they're still available. If they are available, It looks like a complete rebuild, sans bearings, could run up to $300. Unless I missed something.... which is a complete possibility.... Regarding filtering...I needed to do something similar a few months back. I used paper coffee filters in a funnel. Took a while to get all the oil through but worked fine. Rebuild's not too bad. Amayama is a good route for parts. I also have LSD parts around. If you have an older unit that happens to have tabbed spring plates (see my post for examples), then I have a set of unused friction guides for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 19 Author Share Posted November 19 @hawairishThanks!! As far as how it broke, it wasn't sheared or bent. It looks like it had a stress fracture from something where it just broke as a result of.... something.... I'll break into it this weekend and see what it looks like. Just have to drive it home this evening and it'll be parked until I can get to that. Should be getting a new clutch and other related parts soon, so just as good of a time to rip out all of the driveline while I'm at it. I have messages sent out to a couple of local parts yards looking for a donor. So far, no answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 19 Author Share Posted November 19 Putting aside the gear ratio for a second, what year range should I look for in a donor for a 92' (2/92)? I found one that might fit the bill; AT w/237/75/15 tires. I don't recall the year, and their search engine doesn't work online.... But then... with what I have in there now being in question.... who knows.... Provided I don't detonate the rear end in my trip home this evening, I might just have to rebuild it since parts do seem to be unobtanium unless you already have a donor vehicle on hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 20 Share Posted November 20 The bolt pattern changed in '89, so you want '90-'95. I thought auto was almost always 4.6, but it turns out it's not that simple. I checked the '90 (PD-142) and '95 (PD-98) manuals. Same chart in both. VG/manual is always 4.3. VG/auto/SE trim is always 4.6. VG/Auto/not-SE can be either, depending on original tire size. (I assume larger tires = deeper gears, but the chart doesn't come out and say that.) So if that auto/small tires donor you're looking at isn't an SE, you might be onto a winner. I would still want to see the build plate and/or check turns by hand to confirm. And yeah, ideally the donor should have the same brakes, or you'll have to open it up. And if you've gotta open the diff, and your old one is otherwise present and correct, might as well open that one and replace those guides. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 20 Author Share Posted November 20 I have read that the 9-11 bolt patterns are basically interchangeable by removing or omitting 2 of the studs based on what you're putting on... but if I'm going to do it, I'd rather have the right thing in the first place. I'll give them a call back to verify the year of the potential donor. That being said, the other question that comes to mind is if it has the LSD option. I'm not convinced that the LSD is junk yet without looking at it. It is Quiet. Actually, more quiet than I have experienced in the past. There was a moment in time where it would routinely clatter when I was making slow turns. Now, I don't notice it... Anyway, provided nothing comes up, I'll be trying to pull it this weekend to inspect and try to order parts as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 20 Author Share Posted November 20 I have preemptively sent an inquiry for ALL of the LSD parts in the differential to JP-Carparts... I should be hearing from them in the next couple of days to see what/if the parts are available. Total, sans shipping and tax, is 295.53. Kinda eager to see what they have... I'm glad someone turned me onto some of these resources overseas... It's a mixed blessing.... Otherwise, I might be considering scrapping it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawairish Posted November 20 Share Posted November 20 3 hours ago, gamellott said: I have read that the 9-11 bolt patterns are basically interchangeable by removing or omitting 2 of the studs based on what you're putting on... I had read about that, too, but I feel like that wasn't true when I came across that scenario on accident. Long story short, I pulled a H233(A?) 3.7 from a very early D21 that would have been a perfect when I swapped a late-model D21 H233B onto my Frontier. The older 3rd didn't seem like it'd fit even if I pulled studs, but maybe I didn't try hard enough. Also couldn't put the 3.7 gears into a newer 3rd because the pinion gear used different bearings and I didn't want that much of a hodge-podge. My Frontier had 3.7 gears, so the H233 3.7s would have been great, but the donor had 3.9s and that ended up being a far better choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 20 Author Share Posted November 20 @hawairish I'll keep an eye out for the correct one then. Seems to be slim pickings around here. There was ONE in Portland that looked promising... but that's almost a day trip from here, and I wouldn't want to travel that far to be disappointed with an open diff.... although, it seems as though all Pathfinders may have LSD's according to one source I saw. I don't know if that's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted November 21 Share Posted November 21 14 hours ago, gamellott said: Actually, more quiet than I have experienced in the past. There was a moment in time where it would routinely clatter when I was making slow turns. I'll bet this is related. They're not supposed to do that--I've only heard of them clattering if they're run with straight oil (without the special LSD goo). I'm still not sure how it would've failed there, but I'm gonna guess there's a connection between the clutches having a little stick/slip party and the guide that couples the clutches to the housing letting go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 25 Author Share Posted November 25 I managed to get it out over the weekend. At that, it's just out. I cannot see any smoking guns on the "failure". Good wear on the Ring and pinion gears, nothing abnormal as far as I can see. It's all pretty well encased and the clutches/retainers are not visible. More to follow when I make the time to disassemble what I need to in order to get to the clutches. One thing that I was able to figure out is that I do have the correct gear ratio according to the plate inside the engine compartment. One thing that I did overlook was a gasket. It's not expensive, so I'll probably get 2. Shipping will cost more than the parts, I'm sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted November 25 Author Share Posted November 25 Another thing to note; when I got the parts request back from JP's, all of the disk parts were available to manufacture with the caveat of having a 2+ month lead time to build. Maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel for these things and getting NEW replacement parts!! Other question @hawairish; do you recommend replacing the non friction disks, or just the friction ones? As mentioned above, it appears as though I can get them all.... Just might take some time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawairish Posted November 27 Share Posted November 27 On 11/25/2024 at 8:43 AM, gamellott said: I managed to get it out over the weekend. At that, it's just out. I cannot see any smoking guns on the "failure". Good wear on the Ring and pinion gears, nothing abnormal as far as I can see. It's all pretty well encased and the clutches/retainers are not visible. More to follow when I make the time to disassemble what I need to in order to get to the clutches. One thing that I was able to figure out is that I do have the correct gear ratio according to the plate inside the engine compartment. One thing that I did overlook was a gasket. It's not expensive, so I'll probably get 2. Shipping will cost more than the parts, I'm sure... If you have a Nissan dealership nearby, you can get them shipped there for free via Nissan’s parts site (parts.Nissan USA.com). Mine’s super close, so it works out great. All the pieces in the clutch pack are friction pieces except the springs. I was given the option to wait for manufacturing lead time, but I think those orders also got cancelled. For the price though, could be worth finding out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted December 3 Author Share Posted December 3 Good Afternoon All!! Teardown complete and I found one side of the LSD was missing both of the friction plate guides. The tabs on the friction disks with tabs had worn into the housing on both sides. Additionally, one of the springs @hawairish discusses in his teardown and rebuild post, was shattered. Special Thanks to @hawairish and @Slartibartfast for their guidance on how-to DIY. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted December 4 Share Posted December 4 Oof. Yeah, that's crunchy. Too bad it chewed up the housing. Any luck tracking down a 3rd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamellott Posted December 4 Author Share Posted December 4 48 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said: Oof. Yeah, that's crunchy. Too bad it chewed up the housing. Any luck tracking down a 3rd? Yes, it's a mess. I imagine it could have been worse, but it's time to make this a paperweight. @hawairish is providing a great assist in order to get this back on the road. Hopefully in time before for the snow to hit. I kinda still want to find a good donor vehicle, but I don't want to wind up with a junk yard full of non-working vehicles in my yard, or a garage full of spare parts that I want to keep for Justin. That said, a LOT of parts are becoming increasingly difficult to acquire unless you have a stash somewhere or know someone... I can't tell you the last time I saw a D/WD21 with 2 factory brake lights like mine on the road. It would be awesome to find someone who parked something 12 years ago that's wanting to get rid of it now that's compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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