k9sar Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 so after I did my water pump and timing belt and such, I thought I had my pwr steering pump belt too tight but I figured it would be ok once the belt stretched a little bit. Then I got involved in rebuilding the wife's van and totally forgot about the pathy. So I started to hear a little grinding like a bearing in a pulley was going and I figured I would take care of it once the weather got above freezing. Today, I started it and, besides the stuck lifter that pecked loudly for about three minutes before going quiet, the was this nasty noise coming from the front of the engine. I could still hear the bearing and I think it's just the top tensioner/idler but I'm not positive. In top of that, there is periodically a noise that is a cross between a fan blade hitting the shroud and the timing cover breaking out into a violent vibration. I grabbed my stethescope and probed several items... idler made some crunchy sound (expected), the pwr steering pump was fine, the altenator was quiet, the water pump just purred and the fan was not hitting anything. I got under and put the probe on the oil pan. That is not the source of the noise. It doesn't sound internal. I could hear it the loudest on the timing cover and on the bracket holding the tensioner. The pwr steering belt seems to have a vibration in it but I'm not sure if that would oscillate enough to make that loud of a noise. I guess I'll start tomorrow by removing one component at a time to see when the noise stops. Fan first, then each of the three belts, one at a time. I won't have to worry about overheating (it's 10 degrees F right now) and I don't need the AC. If I get all the belts off and the noise is still there... I'll tear into the timing belt and perhaps it's the tensioner in there. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Ouch. Hope it's nothing too serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colbywan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Sounds EXACTLY like the sound I was experiencing with my rig. After having a friend do my timing belt (huge mistake) I heard that same noise you just described while on my way out of town. I was baffled because it was making noise but continued to run perfectly. It turned out to be the tensioner stud had broken off becuase the timing belt was on too tight. I drove it for about 50 miles or so because my friend kept saying that there was nothing wrong and I was in between my home and destination. Then the next moring I took it to a small shop not even a 1/4 mile from the place I was staying the mechanic said he couldn't look at if for a week so I figured to drive it back the very short distance but it was just the last straw it need to SNAP while barely idling around a corner!! Timing belt exploded. Bye bye motor. Long story short now I've got a different motor. So I'd pull the timing cover off and check ASAP if I were you. -Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 you know we're just guessing as we haven't heard the sounds but i'd say this is one of your issues: I could still hear the bearing and I think it's just the top tensioner/idler but I'm not positive. and the other may be what colby here above just said. those are my first thoughts based purely on my gut feeling. k9, do i need to buy you a torque wrench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I could still hear the bearing and I think it's just the top tensioner/idler but I'm not positive. In top of that, there is periodically a noise that is a cross between a fan blade hitting the shroud and the timing cover breaking out into a violent vibration. I grabbed my stethescope and probed several items... idler made some crunchy sound (expected), the pwr steering pump was fine, the altenator was quiet, the water pump just purred and the fan was not hitting anything. I got under and put the probe on the oil pan. That is not the source of the noise. It doesn't sound internal. I could hear it the loudest on the timing cover and on the bracket holding the tensioner. The pwr steering belt seems to have a vibration in it but I'm not sure if that would oscillate enough to make that loud of a noise. The idler bearing is going out on my old 95 and it makes a suprising amount of noise, not just from the bearing (the cause obviously) but from load/vibration being transmitted, which I'm guessing could transmit to the TB cover that you hear? My new 95 had original belts and had been parked for a while before I bought it so one developed a flat spot. I could hear a once per rev sound coming from it that irritated me to no end. I replaced all the belts and it runs much quieter; I have them on the loose side, sometimes one barks on start up. Try replacing the bearing and belts and see what you hear then... so after I did my water pump and timing belt and such Regarding Colbywan's post, I have no idea, having never done that work on a Pathy before. I'm assuming you did it correctly... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver97ex Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I had a terrible grinding/whining noise after doing my w/p, t/stat, t/belt, etc. Turned out it was the idler pulley, replaced that and all is well. At least as far as that noise goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Colby nailed it. I'm surprised I made it home without trashing the engine. I pulled it apart and the timing cover was full of fuzz. Turns out the stud that the tensioner rides on has snapped off at the block and the tensioner became trapped between the timing belt and the place where the housing for the water pump meets the oil pump. That area was ground down to the point where that little black gasket was exposed. Lots of little metal shavings all over the place. The tensioner looks like it was chewed on. Luckily, the timing belt did not slip at all so the valve train is still OK. Now for the problem.... How to get that damned piece of the stud out of the block. Guess what... it's threadlocked and torqued to about 40 ft-lbs. I center punched it and drilled a 1/16 hole with a nice little cobolt drill all the way through the bolt and into the cavity behind it. Then I enlarged the hole to 7/32 using a right-angled attachement on my drill since the bit was too long to allow me to get in there without taking out the radiator. I slipped in an easy-out and put a T handle on it and started to horse on it. I got to the point where I would need to add some leverage to the handles to get any additional torque but I had visions of breaking off another easy-out. Not good cause the are nearly impossible to remove if you break them. So I decided to try to remove the one from the junk engine I have sitting in my garage. That way, I could get an idea of how much torque wouldbe needed to break it loose. I couldn't get a stud-puller on it due to the water pump and oil pump housings so I tried the 2-nut trick. All I managed to do was rip the threads off the stud and out of the outer nut. I was using a wrench and a 3 foot pipe to get torque on it and it wasn't moving. damn. So I called the local parts place and that is not an item they carry so it was off to the dealership. Yea, they can get me one... it is something like $0.77 but they would have to order it. I called all the local dealerships and apparetnly nobody stocks them. So, I pay 77 cents and wait 4 days till it arrives. The plan now is to drill the hole larger and try to tap it to the original size and thread (10mm 1.25) and slam a replacement in the same hole. I'm gonna try to throw a torch on the old engine and see if I can burn out the threadlock and not melt any of the surrounding aluminum. If I can get that one loose, perhaps I can torch the engine in my truck and coax it out withoug breaking the easy-out. this sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Sheesh!! Yes, heat up the locktite first. This is the common method and I have done it many times. Between that and progressively drilling larger holes for easy outs, you'll get it out. Try using a square bolt extractor, not the spiral ones and left hand drills should always be used when possible... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 what's the advantage of a square or fluted extractor vs the spiral ones? I can swing by the local sears and pickup a set of these if they will work better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Yep, that's them. I find they are stronger, especially the smaller sizes and they are more likely to strip the hole/back out than dig in and snap like the left hand spiral type. Just my experience, but I believe it to be true... Let me know if you need some carbide left hand spade drills in specific diameters. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 well.. I snapped my cobalt bit (1/16) off just as I was getting through the bolt (luckily it wasn't bottomed out in the hole). I was able to pull the broken piece out and there was about a half twist left on the shaft so I was able to rechuck it and finish the pilot hole. I'll pickup a handful of sized of them when I get the extractors. The cobalt bits are more fragile but they stay sharp. I'm not sure what grade the stud was but it wasn't terribly hard to drill (unlike the case hardened rocker arms I was trying to drill a couple months ago). so, if I understand these extractors correctly, you drill the pilot, put the extractor in and hammer it in to cut itself a grip. Then throw some torque on it. If it strips, drive it in harder or use a bigger one. and, before doing any of that, break out the MAPP torch and heat the son-of-a-bitch smoking hot to fry the locktite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 so, if I understand these extractors correctly, you drill the pilot, put the extractor in and hammer it in to cut itself a grip. Then throw some torque on it. If it strips, drive it in harder or use a bigger one. and, before doing any of that, break out the MAPP torch and heat the son-of-a-bitch smoking hot to fry the locktite Yep, pretty much!! If it strips, you can resize the hole slightly larger or just hammer it in and try again. You'll see... Just don't hammer it in too hard 'cause then you are spreading the stud with the tapered extractor and wedging the threads bound. It's kind of a feel thing, but not too delicate. Good luck, I'll keep an eye out for Q's. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colbywan Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Yeah my gut was tellin me it was the same thing because of how you though it was shroud problem and it sound like something rattling inside there you described the sound I remember clear as day to the T. Good luck, sounds like you've pretty much got things under control so long as you get the broken piece out ha what a pain man. I was going to do the same procedure but decided against it for not knowing whether the valves had collided with the pistons because my belt had broken ya know. Let's just say it was a smart thing to do on my end because after swapping motors I found that they had indeed made un-friendly contact. I'm glad my misfortune could be of some use to someone else and help them avoid the same fate. -Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 She's running again but the path was long and strange. So here we go (with pictures) As I mentioned before, the tensioner stud had snapped off, the timing belt had been shaven, creating lots of fuzz in the cover. There were dusty metallic pieces from the grinding away of the joint between the oil pump and water pump. I was able to drill the broken piece and was unable to remove the stud from my old engine block (I screwed the threads in the process). here are some pics before the repair... The timing belt groove The ground aluminum I found everywhere more dust and fuzz here you can see where the result of the stud breaking. The tensioner got trapped against the wall and ground it into a fine dust. What a friggin mess. I was extremely lucky that the tensioner wedged where it did or I could have jumped timing and followed Colby's lead in destroying an engine A closer look at the worn area the inside of the lower timing cover What I was up against... What it should look line (my old block) So I broke out my MAPP/Oxygen torch and heated the stud int he old engine to break the threadlock and get an idea how much torque I would need to get the broken piece out of my block. Not to bad. It came out but the stud puller screwed up the threads on the stud (that and the buggered two-nut approach prior to heating). Anyway, I threw heat to the block and broken piece. I held fire to it for much longer than I did on the old block, hoping to make it a little easier. Then I put in my new square extractor. A couple taps with a hammer and a big wrench. I got the wrench as close to the block as I could in an effort to reduce the probability of side-loading the extractor when I torqued it. I put a socket on the end (didn't have one that would engage tightly but it would help me control the side load as I pulled up on the wrench. SNAP! pieces flew. All except the piece that was still in the hole and it wasn't about to come out. CRAP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Here is the extractor. The tip has been ground mostly away on the opposite side by drilling out the hole then picking at it until it finally released and was able to be removed. I tried picking at it. I tried more heat thinking that the differences in thermal properties may loosen it. I tried smacking the block with a hammer to vibrate it loose. No dice. CRAP! So I took tot he task of drilling out an extractor. Three cobalt bits and 2 tungsten carbide bits later, I has an oval hole and a wobbly piece of an extractor that was in too far to grab with pliers. A small wire with a hook on the end was enough to slip in there and get behind it to pull. Out it came but what a fieaking mess I had now. Drilling out the hole to be tapped after making it oval by trying to drill out the extractor. The drill decided to follow the edge of the extractor and creep into the soft block rather than stay centered on the busted hardened steel extractor. Ready to tap. The hole is slightly to the right of where it used to be due to the creeping of the dril while getting the extractor out. This means the tensioner is tighter against the t-belt and there is not much room for adjustment. Time will tell if it's OK Here is me carefully tapping the hole to the wrong pitch thread. The story was that I decided not to wait for the replacement stud to come in (just got the call today that it's here). I carefully measured the diameter and thread pitch on the broken off part of the stud and never expected the damned thing to be a different pitch on each end. So, the part that has the nut was 1.25 pitch while the part remaining in the block was a 1.5 pitch. I didn't realize that until I decided to use the stud from the old engine and rethread the screwed up end to something slightly smaller but with good threads. I went to put it in the block and it would not go. I was screwing a 1.5 pitch stud into a 1.25 pitch hole. CRAP! The finished solution. A class 8.8 M10x1.25 hex head bolt with a lock washer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well, that was the repair job from hell!! Sorry the square type extractors didn't serve you better but I think they were your best bet. It doesn't sound like any extraction method was going to work well short of drilling the bolt out which in hind sight would have been the way to go. What a friggin mess. I was extremely lucky that the tensioner wedged where it did or I could have jumped timing and followed Colby's lead in destroying an engine Extremely lucky indeed!! I hope the repair lasts... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colbywan Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 X2 on what a job from hell!! Good job I'm glad it worked out for you in the end though. I still think it's crazy that the exact same thing happened to you and extremely lucky you caught it just in the nic of time! -Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 wow.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebrick Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 I thought i had it bad when mine just jumped timing but that gust sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Day three... running fine. It's even quieter than before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) so the dealership called that my part had arrived. I asked my wife to swing by and pick it up for me. I get home last night and she is proud to present me with the part she picked up... IT'S THE FRIGGIN STUD THAT THE TENSIONER SPRING HOOKS ONTO, NOT THE ONE THAT HOLDS ON THE TENSIONER!!!!!! WHAT A BUNCH OF FRUCKING IDIOTS!!!! What part of "The stud that attached the timing belt tensioner to the cylinder block broke off and the tensioner fell off. I need a new stud to reattach the tensioner" does not make sense??? I'm gonna have a field day when I take the little thing back over there and return it. good thing I decided not to wait and I installed a hex bolt instead. Edited March 11, 2009 by k9sar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colbywan Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 so the dealership called that my part had arrived. I asked my wife to swing by and pick it up for me. I get home last night and she is proud to present me with the part she picked up... IT'S THE FRIGGIN STUD THAT THE TENSIONER SPRING HOOKS ONTO, NOT THE ONE THAT HOLDS ON THE TENSIONER!!!!!! WHAT A BUNCH OF FRUCKING IDIOTS!!!! What part of "The stud that attached the timing belt tensioner to the cylinder block broke off and the tensioner fell off. I need a new stud to reattach the tensioner" does not make sense??? I'm gonna have a field day when I take the little thing back over there and return it. good thing I decided not to wait and I installed a hex bolt instead. Ya know I have one of the studs you need laying here I'll send ya for shipping if you want it. I bought then decided to swap motors. -Colby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Ya know I have one of the studs you need laying here I'll send ya for shipping if you want it. I bought then decided to swap motors. -Colby got a part number so I can rub their stupid noses in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colbywan Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 got a part number so I can rub their stupid noses in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 lol. go git-em k9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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