Big 3 Bailout

[PDCCD]

I want to see the bubble burst and watch our materialistic society eat it's self.

 

There isn't one of us alive that haven't contributed to this.

There isn't one of us alive that won't be devastated by this.

 

Good luck, and good night.

 

Pete

[tekazgtr1984]

I think we're all in some semblance of agreement here... The fact is, the world is f*cked and in a real bad place at the moment. Suffice it to say, it's going to be a long haul for all of us no matter what happens.

[zonianbrat]

Pete, you talk like we are not already in a depression. I say we are and things are going to get alot worse before they get better. The housing market is tanking, the big three are complaining, the value of our dollar is going down the toilet. Unemployment is at its worst it's been in many years. I am truly scared to see what the future brings. I just got a refund from my insurance and I am using it to pay off ALL my bills.

[94extreme]

I want to see the bubble burst and watch our materialistic society eat it's self.

 

that's just plain dumb do be wishing this.. but your wish will come true sure enough.. lol

 

I think we're all in some semblance of agreement here... The fact is, the world is f*cked and in a real bad place at the moment. Suffice it to say, it's going to be a long haul for all of us no matter what happens.

not so much the world as much as the USA.. there are plenty of places out there that are booming right now. yes, i am looking at moving.

 

Pete, you talk like we are not already in a depression. I say we are and things are going to get alot worse before they get better. The housing market is tanking, the big three are complaining, the value of our dollar is going down the toilet. Unemployment is at its worst it's been in many years. I am truly scared to see what the future brings. I just got a refund from my insurance and I am using it to pay off ALL my bills.

yup, just the tip of this iceberg.

 

B, where are ylu gonna get this new job??? (auto workers) mcdonalds? can one raise a family of 4 on that? be realistic.. we don't bail these punk companies the whole mess will only get way, way worse.. i don't think you guys can even imagine what is in store for USA..

[PDCCD]

Pete, you talk like we are not already in a depression. I say we are and things are going to get alot worse before they get better. The housing market is tanking, the big three are complaining, the value of our dollar is going down the toilet. Unemployment is at its worst it's been in many years. I am truly scared to see what the future brings. I just got a refund from my insurance and I am using it to pay off ALL my bills.

 

I don't particularly find it relevent as to wether or not we're in a economic depression. My opinion is that the first depression was the result of our countries transition from an agricultural economy to one based on industry. From one thing to the next. When individuals began focusing on efficiency and asset accumulation and away from family and community. What i've watched develop in the past 10+ years since i started paying attention will not be a transition, but an end. The ramifications of this hypothosis in a nuclear world i can't even begin to fully wrap my head around, and i seem to spend more time considering these things than anyone i know.

[GrimGreg]

Wow, you guys are like chicken little.

 

What is so dumb about wanting to see things crash and be restarted better? Sure for some the inbetween time will be hell, but it is their sufferage that will make things good in the end.

[tekazgtr1984]

I can see how one might look at this situation as grim and hard to endure, as it no doubt will be. But this too shall pass; there have been tougher times for the human race than what is presently taking place.

I don't know what will happen and there is no point in trying to predict what may occur. The key is to just take it as it comes and hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

Edited December 17, 2008 by tekazgtr1984

[ctpathy]

Like i said bud, read the article i linked please. They're trying to adapt. But they've learned, the more they give, the more they're asked to give the next time, and they're always seems to be a next time, till there's nothing left to give. But i can guarantee you, that as far as labor laws specifically, we are moving back words already. As labor movements/unions have slowly had they're memberships eroded, due both to they're inability to adapt, as well as people not appreciating what they're grandfathers have done for them and taking what they have been born with for granted, corporations and even the government have slowly and methodically moved to neuter these laws. Underfunding inspection agencies and lengthy costly litigation have become effective tools of evasion used. You can read all day about companies like Walmart and McDonalds repeatedly violating child labor, labor, and Osha laws.

 

There needs to be a unified effective group of working class people to represent themselves. We have no power in limited numbers. Divide and conquer. Corporate lobbies are writing and re-writing laws daily. We are already sliding back-words, and as long as we continue to look for reasons to dislike each other and fail to work together realizing we all want the same things (safety, work, provide for our kids, food, shelter...) and relinquish the greed we are all guilty of perpetrating , then we will inevitably return to the third world, while the third world takes the path we've already trod. Contrary to the educations that most of us received in public school, the working class of this country never had representation in government prior to the labor movement, and we are losing that representation daily. This has been a union busting presidency, and the destruction of the last union with any major power will be a huge feather in the cap of these antagonists. That's why they've been so un-cooperative when they happily threw hundreds of billions to wall street. No unions there...

 

Honestly, i can back up what i'm saying with statistics and facts, and even more with personal experience, things that would make most people sick i've had employers pull, and still have pull, and i work for the man. It just take me forever to type, and i doubt anyone is even reading.

The decay is spreading. This is happening. I don't know if we can stop the cycle, it's so old it's almost inevitable.

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

 

We hear you pete

 

I work for a town in CT and we are union and it's not all that great.

 

contracts used to mean something but now they seem to be a joke.

 

The little guy gets in a** again

[ctpathy]

I can see how one might look at this situation as grim and hard to endure, as it no doubt will be. But this too shall pass; there have been tougher times for the human race than what is presently taking place.

I don't know what will happen and there is no point in trying to predict what may occur. The key is to just take it as it comes and hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

 

 

Amen !!

[tekazgtr1984]

[Kingman]

I'm going to ad a link for people to look at

 

GM Facts

[GrimGreg]

I'm going to ad a link for people to look at

 

GM Facts

 

[Kingman]

 

Why roll the eyes? Facts are facts, can't be changed. Opinions, however...

[GrimGreg]

Why roll the eyes? Facts are facts, can't be changed. Opinions, however...

 

 

Propoganda always makes the party responsible for it sound better. Half truths don't tell the full tale.

[Kingman]

Propoganda always makes the party responsible for it sound better. Half truths don't tell the full tale.

 

Did you read all those? Or just blow it off?

[GrimGreg]

Did you read all those? Or just blow it off?

Yes I read it, hence my statements.

[94extreme]

Wow, you guys are like chicken little.

 

What is so dumb about wanting to see things crash and be restarted better? Sure for some the inbetween time will be hell, but it is their sufferage that will make things good in the end.

because the crash is going to be so bad, it'll make you cry. and things will not restart like you think they will.

 

I can see how one might look at this situation as grim and hard to endure, as it no doubt will be. But this too shall pass; there have been tougher times for the human race than what is presently taking place.

I don't know what will happen and there is no point in trying to predict what may occur. The key is to just take it as it comes and hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

well, this is just the tip of the iceberg. things will get way, way worse. you can't even imagine it.

 

Why roll the eyes? Facts are facts, can't be changed. Opinions, however...

because he's just that way. can't see much past his nose.

 

Did you read all those? Or just blow it off?

he blew it off. reading would require too much effort and brain power. :D

[GrimGreg]

because the crash is going to be so bad, it'll make you cry. and things will not restart like you think they will.

Really, do you have a time machine, have you gone to the future and seen what it will be like? Sorry, if I don't share your bleak predictions.

well, this is just the tip of the iceberg. things will get way, way worse. you can't even imagine it.

Again. prove it will get "worse", for who? Not, me.

because he's just that way. can't see much past his nose.

What way? Sorry if I'm not the type to yell fire in a crowded theater. All I see is a lot of Americans and others who made a nice crappy bed for themselves to lay in.

he blew it off. reading would require too much effort and brain power. :D

Actually, no I did read it (guess you can't read since I already said that once). Sorry, but unlike you, I didn't smoke my brain away captain herbalife. So, I can read the "B.S." in the "facts".

[PDCCD]

Name calling isn't constructive. It degrades the discussion, and egos will prevent information sharing. Grim, could you elaborate as to which points specifically you find "B.S."? Would you also provide any reference data to support your perspective? I'm excited to hear of some good news. Thanks.

 

Oh, and as for yelling fire, what if the theater is on fire? Will you be quiet because your in a crowd?

Pete

Edited December 18, 2008 by PDCCD

[Kingman]

Yes, please tell which facts you call BS on

[Precise1]

I have to basically agree with GG about the supplied facts. It is mainly propaganda; facts twisted and presented... The problem is that the American public has a very limited memory and is not good at reading between the lines. Allow me to point out a few...

 

GM has cut its payroll drastically, by 45.8 percent in the U.S. alone since 2000. In fact, GM is far from the largest employer in the industry. With 252,000 employees worldwide...Yet GM sold more vehicles worldwide last year than any other automaker.

Ok, that's 48% in the US!! So what were the total # of employees in 2000? Enough to make it a bloated pig, or just outsourcing all the jobs? Sold more vehicles? Then why, if they have less employees and sold the most vehicles are they destitute?

 

Nearly 3 million jobs would be lost in the first year alone – with another 2.5 million to follow over the next two years

I'd like to see how they reached those #'s...

 

The credit crisis that is affecting us all is wounding the U.S. auto industry in many different ways.

The credit crisis is in the last year... GM has been failing for 1/2 a decade at least. Check their net profit/loss statements...

 

Carmakers can’t get loans to restructure and to produce new advanced technology vehicles.

Fire enough useless managers (48% in the US, like the workers, right?) and you are restructured. Those left will have to work...

"to produce new advanced technology vehicles". Oh, you mean R&D? That is budgeted...

 

Clearly, GM faces unprecedented challenges related to uncertainty in global financial markets and weakening economic fundamentals in key regions. But bankruptcy protection is not an option GM is considering.

 

Bankruptcy would not be in the interests of our employees, stockholders, suppliers or customers.

 

This drivel was written by the PR office and attorneys... What are they actually saying, and why?

 

Although total U.S. vehicle sales are down almost 15% so far this year (through October), a number of GM cars and crossovers have enjoyed significant sales increases:

 

Virtually every individual and company I know of can survive a 15% pay cut. Why not them? Especially when they sell the most vehicles on the planet with far fewer employees?

 

We hope you will understand why we cannot comment on this specific rumor.

Give us your $, but your don't need to know that...

 

There is also the matter of national pride.

Nope, I'm not proud of them. A blind ruse to try to use patriotism to get $.

 

The very rapid shift from trucks to cars that occurred when fuel prices spiked this spring has forced all carmakers to adapt.

Yawn. They focused on high end trucks and SUVs because that's where they had the greatest profit margin...

 

GM’s Financing that Fits campaign points out that GM dealers can access hundreds of banks, giving customers the best rate possible.

Hmm, didn't they sell off much of GMAC a few years back, trying to raise $? (see 'failing for 1/2 a decade' above) Now they can give the best possible rate?

 

GM introduced a Saturn Vue hybrid for the 2007 model year

Remember around 2003 when they flatly stated that they were not going to meet the legislation that required a percentage of all vehicles sold to be hybrid or EV? They said 'because people don't want them'. Funny, I see Prius's everywhere...

 

this moves GM into third place in the U.S. hybrid market, just a few vehicles behind Honda.

Ok, but Toyota leads the field by a huge gap. How far behind Toyota are they, not Honda??

 

Ok, that's 2 pages and enough to prove my point. Whether you think they should be bailed out or not, any critical thinker has to look at what is presented in this 'fact sheet' and compare it to history, fill in the blanks and ask questions. It doesn't add up on it's own, folks...

 

B

[Simon]

THere's a few things, in my opinion that has put the "BIG3" in this position.

 

1) The union. Overpaid workers, huge pensions, for what? These people are no more "skilled" than any other assembly worker. Typically these folks put 3 or 4 bolts in a part.

 

2) Platform sharing. Why do we need a Buick, Chevy, GMC, Saturn and Pontiac version of the same vehicle?

 

3) Brand ambiguity. Pontiac is supposed to be GM's "performance division" Chevy is the barebones division. Fine. Why is there a Cobalt SS which is supercharged.....but no supercharged version of the G5, which is the same car, rebadged? Other examples of this abound.

 

There are a ton of other issues, including (what I believe to be former) quality issues with these manufacturers. Whether or not they're still having quallity problems really is inconsequential at this point. Consumers have long memories, and need proof that things have improved.

 

My solution:

 

Do not bail out these companies. Offer big rebates for consumers who will purchase vehicles BUILT in the US (or Canada). So, whether it be Nissan, Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford or otherwise, if it's built in the US (or Canada) , offer the rebate. Keeps North Americans working, and helps stimulate the economy.

[PDCCD]

I have to basically agree with GG about the supplied facts. It is mainly propaganda; facts twisted and presented... The problem is that the American public has a very limited memory and is not good at reading between the lines. Allow me to point out a few...

Ok, that's 48% in the US!! So what were the total # of employees in 2000? Enough to make it a bloated pig, or just outsourcing all the jobs? Sold more vehicles? Then why, if they have less employees and sold the most vehicles are they destitute?

Thank you GG, i mean B. I'm still waiting for a response from you on our previous posts, but thanks for the counter points.

I never seem to be able to figure out how to quote properly, so excuse my sloppy format.

-Current employee numbers and increase in sales: I said the same thing. Exporting jobs lol. But to address one of your other statements, they've cut 40% or 32000 salaried employees since 2000. Vehicle sales can also be contributed to increased international sales (asias growing middle class i mentioned earlier) As for being currently destitute, i've heard them mention economic dowturn causing unexpected problems. The same one affecting the foreign auto makers (Toyota,Honda) See link:

http://www.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/18_21.html

If you read the other thread i posted with the New Republican link, it's easy to visualize why they haven't yet been effected as severely financially (health care costs one example).

I'd like to see how they reached those #'s...

On to the next one.

-3 million job projection is pretty easy to figure out, i think your being facetious. Even the Japanese are concerned with the ripple effect cause to the entire system:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/compa...sion=2008121609

 

The credit crisis is in the last year... GM has been failing for 1/2 a decade at least. Check their net profit/loss statements...

While i can't argue here, their management is obviously failing, I think the timing of this "credit crisis" hit them at a particularly bad time. They're recent negotiations with the UAW in 2007 would get them rolling in the right direction. Although i doubt it would have saved them long run for various reasons

Fire enough useless managers (48% in the US, like the workers, right?) and you are restructured. Those left will have to work...

"to produce new advanced technology vehicles". Oh, you mean R&D? That is budgeted...

I addressed this one above

This drivel was written by the PR office and attorneys... What are they actually saying, and why?

I agree. An obvious effort to bolster public support and stock holder confidence to prevent sell offs

Virtually every individual and company I know of can survive a 15% pay cut. Why not them? Especially when they sell the most vehicles on the planet with far fewer employees?

Give us your $, but your don't need to know that...

Nope, I'm not proud of them. A blind ruse to try to use patriotism to get $.

Agreed, but look how well patriotism gets used and used and used and, well, you know already

Yawn. They focused on high end trucks and SUVs because that's where they had the greatest profit margin...

Agreed. But in their defense, i see ALLOT of their gas guzzling vehicles driving around, somebody bought them

Hmm, didn't they sell off much of GMAC a few years back, trying to raise $? (see 'failing for 1/2 a decade' above) Now they can give the best possible rate?

enough already said about management

Remember around 2003 when they flatly stated that they were not going to meet the legislation that required a percentage of all vehicles sold to be hybrid or EV? They said 'because people don't want them'. Funny, I see Prius's everywhere...

and i see hummers, pickups, Cadillac's...

Ok, but Toyota leads the field by a huge gap. How far behind Toyota are they, not Honda??

seems a bit petty this one.http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=atR4ArJR__OI&refer=us

 

 

Ok, that's 2 pages and enough to prove my point. Whether you think they should be bailed out or not, any critical thinker has to look at what is presented in this 'fact sheet' and compare it to history, fill in the blanks and ask questions. It doesn't add up on it's own, folks...

 

B

 

Ah, what a mess. Sorry for the tough read. Listen, fundamentally I agree with your perspective on this B. But we're wasting time on small beans, in my opinion. God i need to find a better way to spend my time LOL. goodnight.

[94extreme]

I'd like to see how they reached those #'s...

why don't you take a gander. i can come up with numbers close to those and i know you're a smart guy so give it a try.

 

Do not bail out these companies. Offer big rebates for consumers who will purchase vehicles BUILT in the US (or Canada). So, whether it be Nissan, Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford or otherwise, if it's built in the US (or Canada) , offer the rebate. Keeps North Americans working, and helps stimulate the economy.

that's just crazy. don't you get the fact that even though americans are employed byt foreign car builders, the profits go out of the country thus actually draining the economy. giving discounts/vouchers on american made cars but with a foreign mark is actually even worse then bailing out the big 3.

 

and gg, i really don't even want to comment on your smart ass comments but i'll laugh about your "it won't hurt me" comment in the near future.. hahahahahaha.. all buckeyes are freaking nuts after all.

[PDCCD]

THere's a few things, in my opinion that has put the "BIG3" in this position.

 

1) The union. Overpaid workers, huge pensions, for what? These people are no more "skilled" than any other assembly worker. Typically these folks put 3 or 4 bolts in a part.

 

2) Platform sharing. Why do we need a Buick, Chevy, GMC, Saturn and Pontiac version of the same vehicle?

 

3) Brand ambiguity. Pontiac is supposed to be GM's "performance division" Chevy is the barebones division. Fine. Why is there a Cobalt SS which is supercharged.....but no supercharged version of the G5, which is the same car, rebadged? Other examples of this abound.

 

There are a ton of other issues, including (what I believe to be former) quality issues with these manufacturers. Whether or not they're still having quallity problems really is inconsequential at this point. Consumers have long memories, and need proof that things have improved.

 

My solution:

 

Do not bail out these companies. Offer big rebates for consumers who will purchase vehicles BUILT in the US (or Canada). So, whether it be Nissan, Toyota, Honda, GM, Ford or otherwise, if it's built in the US (or Canada) , offer the rebate. Keeps North Americans working, and helps stimulate the economy.

 

I just can't help myself.

Agree with all of them but the first, plus there's so much more. Please see post #37 in this thread. That link brought up things i never thought about. Thanks. Oh, and the rebate thing, i don't know enough about that one to comment. There's allot going on there too.

Pete

Edited December 19, 2008 by PDCCD