Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) I know you constitution gives you the right to bare arms. But let’s not forget that your constitution is “just a goddamned piece of paper!” after all, and given what you as a nation has given up, obviously stands for nothing nowadays. I have no opinion either way on gun control either except to say that facts support that gun control works. I have no real opinion at all on how many guns you must own in order to make you feel like a real man, woman or child either. If you feel you must have a weapon to feel safe, then I can't help but feel sorry for you. I wasn’t going to make any comments at all when the VT thread finally made its appearance. I have to say that I was astonished to read, here on this site, that some of you actually think that more guns, concealed at that, would have made a difference. That, to me, defied logic on any level and surely must be a real slap in the face to all of those that lost loved ones in these abhorrent events that seem to occur all too often in the US. So I decided to find out why some of you think this way just to get BS like this from people like… let’s leave them unnamed. But take this example. I am fear mongering. Because I put up 18 links that pointed out that what he says is nonsense (his nonsense is kids being killed no less), is actually happening to the tune of 3,500 or so deaths a year. I am a fear monger???? I admit that facts are scary. So please.. No more BS. Long story short; It pains me read about innocent people that die en mass over and over again in your schools, in your streets and shopping centres. It pains me more that nothing is done to fix the problem. Gun Control! Ban guns like we did here in OZ. Will it help? I think it will only because it has worked so well here. Enlighten me, and those that think like me, as to why gun control wouldn’t work in the US. So here we are. Let’s see what comes out in the wash then. Edited July 20, 2007 by Vsicks Pathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) abhorrent events that seem to occur all too often in the US maybe from 2002-present but heres a lil tid bit from a pro gun control website Deadliest Mass Shootings (10 or more dead) in Western Democracies 1966-2002 Date Place Dead Legal status 26 Apr 2002 Erfurt, Germany 16 + 1 Legal guns, pistol club member 27 Sep 2001 Zug, Switzerland 14 + 1 Legal guns, licensed pistol owner 29 Jul 1999 Atlanta, GA, USA 12 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 20 Apr 1999 Littleton, CO, USA 13 + 2 Not legal guns 28 Apr 1996 Port Arthur, Australia 35 Legal guns* 13 Mar 1996 Dunblane, Scotland 17 + 1 Legal guns, pistol club member 16 Oct 1991 Killeen, TX, USA 23 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 13 Nov 1990 Aramoana, New Zealand 13 + 1 Legal guns, licensed gun owner 18 Jun 1990 Jacksonville, FL, USA 9 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 06 Dec 1989 Montreal, Canada 14 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 19 Aug 1987 Hungerford, England 16 + 1 Legal guns, pistol club member 20 Aug 1986 Edmond, OK, USA 14 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 18 Jul 1984 San Ysidro, CA, USA 21 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required 01 Aug 1966 Austin, TX, USA 16 + 1 Legal guns, no licence required http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF02.htm http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-T/cri_...itted-by-youths http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-T/cri_...s-with-firearms But let’s not forget that your constitution is “just a goddamned piece of paper!†after all, and given what you as a nation has given up, obviously stands for nothing nowadays I dont think I would try to start a debate by provoking people...it will just turn into a nasty little thing and get closed and nothing gained but more anti v6 folks... I spoke what I thought over in the initial vote thread...but I didn't really think the US had the biggest gun problems thats the only reason I researched..granted the information is old it shows that it could be a developing problem but hasn't always been a major problem... plus America is kind of built around firearms and war for that matter...just look at the american revolution and civil war pretty much a foundation that required firearms...violence will never seize guns or no guns... if guns were banned...something would replace it...people would still have them and IMO very little would be accomplished also found this to be pretty interesting...are guns really the problem? non-firearm homicides firearm related homicide Edited July 20, 2007 by unccpathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 maybe from 2002-present but heres a lil tid bit from a pro gun control websitehttp://www.gun-control-network.org/GF02.htm http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-T/cri_...itted-by-youths http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie-T/cri_...s-with-firearms I dont think I would try to start a debate by provoking people...it will just turn into a nasty little thing and get closed and nothing gained but more anti v6 folks... I spoke what I thought over in the initial vote thread...but I didn't really think the US had the biggest gun problems thats the only reason I researched..granted the information is old it shows that it could be a developing problem but hasn't always been a major problem... plus America is kind of built around firearms and war for that matter...just look at the american revolution and civil war pretty much a foundation that required firearms...violence will never seize guns or no guns... if guns were banned...something would replace it...people would still have them and IMO very little would be accomplished also found this to be pretty interesting...are guns really the problem? non-firearm homicides firearm related homicide I am curious as to why you used stats with 10 or more deaths as mass murder. Still, even with skewed figures like that, the US accounts for 50%. Mass murder is 4 and over isn't it? Just school shootings alone, if you want to maneuver the numbers, look like this.. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html This is for the whole world too I might add. I'd watch "Bowling for Columbine" if you think the the USA's revolution and civil war are good reasons to kill each other. Dozens of other countries have far more violent histories than America, yet don't kill each other like you do. As for the little quote about your constitution, take issue with Bush, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 The USA Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a mass murder as "[involving] the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event. Just found this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94extreme Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 lol, finally! but i have no time to post today. darn it man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkpath96 Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 My old high school history teacher loved his guns. His best quote was, when asked about how he felt about gun control was: "Gun control? Seven rounds in a three-inch circle at 100 yards. That's gun control." Anyways, I personally own a Bushmaster Firearms DCM-XR competition rifle. Why? For fun - target shooting is one of my favorite pastimes. Have you ever hit a rotten grapefruit with a .223 hollowpoint?? My brother owns a really nice 9mm Baretta. Why? Target shooting. We all own a shotgun or two in my family. Why? Guess. Everyone I know owns a gun of some sort, and each of us enjoys their uses as either recreational or for hunting. My point is, there are tens of millions of harmless, innocent, enjoyment-seeking gun owners out there in the USA. There are only a handful of psychos. Maybe if our justice system/enforcement officials were more rapid, efficient, and decisive, some of these people would not become mass murderers. I think an acceptible form of gun control would not be to take away all the guns, but to have a much more thorough evaluation period for someone attempting to purchase one. And to have to pass a safety course in order to purchase one. One thing I do not want to see are firearms registrations - that is just another way to take money away from us that we don't need to put up with (why do I need to spend $15 a year to register my canoe of all things???). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 My personal opinion.... if criminals want to have guns, they will find a way to get them. People who hunt for sport should be allowed tio do so but you don't need an uzi to hunt squirrels. Let's keep the firepower within limits. Those who own guns for so-called 'home safety', in my opinion, are idiots. They jeopardize their family and aggravate an already potentially dangerous situation. Many of the school shootings etc are done with 'dads guns' and are rarely long rifles (which are most common for hunting purposes) Who's gonna try to knock a quail with a .38 and be fairly successful? anyway... I have my own means of home protection and do not need the added worry of firearms in my home that my kids could potentially get their hands on or... even worse... make my home a bigger target for drug addict assholes who are looking to steal a gun to go commit a robbery to support their addiction. Ain't nothing you can use here... move along. I hear the house a few doors down has a nice 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 What happens to the monies invested in guns to date if they're all banned? Do people simply have to give up the products they've paid so much for? Are there reparations for relinquishing one's weapons to the government? I don't think many people would stand for that. I think gun control should involve personal responsibility and limitations on types and numbers of weapons purchased legally in the US. Banning all kinds and types of weapons won't get you anywhere, the general population is spread across how many umpteen million square miles of land over here? Hunting is fairly big over here in Oregon, my brother goes for deer and elk, pheasant and quail, etc. I think the deer population would explode if there were no hunters out there culling the herds. We've already killed off most of the wolves, coyotes and other natural predators for those dopey Bambis. It's dangerous enough driving around at night with drunks and cellphone users driving head-on into opposing traffic...tons of insurance claims from deer hits would raise everyone's rates. Lovely. So, IMHO, at the very least...hunting weapons should be allowed with exceptions to some types of weapons not really necessary for such activities (50 cal BMG? Automatics? For DEER? Sheesh.) Interesting stuff from justfacts.com on gun control stats... Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated: "Lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. Old info I admit, but interesting to know. 1995 article with some gun control info... http://www.jpfo.org/data-docs.htm Note I'm saying "info", not "facts". I can't prove or disprove any of it, but it's out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 My personal opinion.... if criminals want to have guns, they will find a way to get them. People who hunt for sport should be allowed tio do so but you don't need an uzi to hunt squirrels. Let's keep the firepower within limits. Those who own guns for so-called 'home safety', in my opinion, are idiots. They jeopardize their family and aggravate an already potentially dangerous situation. Many of the school shootings etc are done with 'dads guns' and are rarely long rifles (which are most common for hunting purposes) Who's gonna try to knock a quail with a .38 and be fairly successful? anyway... I have my own means of home protection and do not need the added worry of firearms in my home that my kids could potentially get their hands on or... even worse... make my home a bigger target for drug addict assholes who are looking to steal a gun to go commit a robbery to support their addiction. Ain't nothing you can use here... move along. I hear the house a few doors down has a nice 9mm. No fighting with you on this one k9. It saddens me but makes me happy at the same time. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 At this point, banning guns in the US makes as much sense as banning Cane Toads in your neck of the woods.... There are so many illegal guns that they could never be eliminated. Wishing a problem to go away won't help. It's already illegal to use a firearm in the commission of a crime. What good has that done? It's illegal to have a handgun in NYC or Washington DC. What good has that done. Wishes and fantasies are fun, but only a complete moron will believe they will change reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailChaser Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) Here's an example of the public having guns being a good thing... I remember a time in Texas before you could legally carry a loaded pistol in your vehicle. In Houston the criminals could pretty much take(carjack) any car they pleased, as long as they had a gun and didn't see any cops around... It got to the point where people were afraid to stop at redlights. That just doesn't happen as much now. Now the criminals have to not only worry about getting busted by a cop, but also have to worry about the owner of the vehicle shooting them or a driver in a different car that sees what's going on. I keep a pistol with me most of the time. I don't carry it to only protect myself. I plan to use it to protect anyone who's being victimized by an armed criminal. Main thing to keep in mind if you carry a gun... You are MUCH more likely to die from gunshot wounds if you carry a gun. If you plan to be a hero and yell some crap that you saw in a movie like "drop it, or freeze or I'll shoot" you might as well have a plot already paid for at the local graveyard. Once a gun toting criminal sees that you also have a gun the situation suddenly gets much more serious. You're forcing him to make a quick decision to shoot or be shot. Not a smart move. Another thing that gets people killed is standing there like you're in shock after shooting an armed criminal. What you see happen in a movie when someone gets shot is nuthing like what happens in reality. Shoot and move if you want to survive a shootout. Most grown men can still shoot and fight for at least 30seconds(which is a long damn time) even if you get a nice solid upper torso shot. My dad was shot in the chest with a 12gauge with birdshot from about 15 feet away. He disarmed the guy, beat him to a bloody pulp, and then proceeded to drive himself to the hospital that was over 30mins away. k9sar... Ever heard of a home invasion? Where the criminals break into your house while you and your family are there. It happens. I wouldn't like to see some guy rape my wife and kids then kill'em and not be able to do a damn thing because I didn't have any guns in the house. You're scared of a criminal breaking in to steal your gun? That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Do you personally know any cops? Do they all leave their guns at work because they're scared of criminals breaking in their house and stealing them.? Hell no, they keep them within reach at all times.(They're suppose to anyway) Because they KNOW first hand how F'ed up some people really are, and prefer to have protection for themselves and others around them. If you TEACH your kids about gun safety as soon as they're old enough to know what it is and what can happen you shouldn't ever have a problem. My wife doesn't like guns, but you can bet your a$$ she knows how to load/unload and accurately shoot all mine just in case she needs to one day when I'm not around. I taught her the basics... Like: Don't announce your presence, shoot from low to high in a house,(meaning squat down so you're shooting in a upwards direction) know what's behind your target and know that most bullets will pass thru and continue on to strike something else, don't shoot once(3 to 5 shots in the torso is key), but at the same time save ammo in case there is more than one guy in the house. Everyone go check your medicine cabinets and find one bottle of pills that could kill a kid.(I'm sure you've all got several) Now make a little game of seeing what it takes for your kids to get the bottle open. Remember to let them use any means that they have at their disposal. Dads tools out in the garage is always a favorite, but they can just smash the (childproof) bottle with a book or something. You'll be amazed by how quick a 5yr old can get "candy" out when noone is watching. I guess you need to get all the medicine out of the house now. How about your vehicles? Kids can and do kill themselves with those too. Vsicks, This is a politics, religion, blah blah blah topic. Everyone is right and wrong and noone is about to give in or change anyones mind. The comment about the constitution just being a piece of paper is about like me saying gun control in Australia is a good thing in your case, because you are all just descendants of criminals and thus more prone to violence and can't be trusted with deadly weapons. Not nice. I do agree about the Bush tho. He's a classic douche bag. Edited July 20, 2007 by TrailChaser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 What happens to the monies invested in guns to date if they're all banned? Do people simply have to give up the products they've paid so much for? Are there reparations for relinquishing one's weapons to the government? I don't think many people would stand for that. I think gun control should involve personal responsibility and limitations on types and numbers of weapons purchased legally in the US. Banning all kinds and types of weapons won't get you anywhere, the general population is spread across how many umpteen million square miles of land over here? Hunting is fairly big over here in Oregon, my brother goes for deer and elk, pheasant and quail, etc. I think the deer population would explode if there were no hunters out there culling the herds. We've already killed off most of the wolves, coyotes and other natural predators for those dopey Bambis. It's dangerous enough driving around at night with drunks and cellphone users driving head-on into opposing traffic...tons of insurance claims from deer hits would raise everyone's rates. Lovely. So, IMHO, at the very least...hunting weapons should be allowed with exceptions to some types of weapons not really necessary for such activities (50 cal BMG? Automatics? For DEER? Sheesh.) Interesting stuff from justfacts.com on gun control stats... Old info I admit, but interesting to know. 1995 article with some gun control info... http://www.jpfo.org/data-docs.htm Note I'm saying "info", not "facts". I can't prove or disprove any of it, but it's out there. Richard W. Stevens is the editor of the Firearms Sentinel. He also appeared on television programs and radio talk shows across the USA, discussing Dial 911 and Die, the right to keep and bear arms. So, I wonder what way he leans? Seems to me he leans so far he might often fall over. I must admit that I didn’t get too far past his first argument (re his graph) with regard to research. He states that research didn’t occur in the 60’s. I couldn’t for the life of me see where anyone said that any research was from the period. Not even his reference note went back to the 60's. It was just a little to short on facts for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 At this point, banning guns in the US makes as much sense as banning Cane Toads in your neck of the woods.... There are so many illegal guns that they could never be eliminated. Wishing a problem to go away won't help. It's already illegal to use a firearm in the commission of a crime. What good has that done? It's illegal to have a handgun in NYC or Washington DC. What good has that done. Wishes and fantasies are fun, but only a complete moron will believe they will change reality. Funny you should use the cane toad as a comparison. We are doing everything possible to eradicate the cane toad. I keep hearing the same old story here. "Illegal guns" You seem to forget that they were legal once. Do any of you ever give that notion any thought at all? Has anyone bothered to see what gun control actually is? You can still own a gun in Australia you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 Here's an example of the public having guns being a good thing... I remember a time in Texas before you could legally carry a loaded pistol in your vehicle. In Houston the criminals could pretty much take(carjack) any car they pleased, as long as they had a gun and didn't see any cops around. As long as they had a what? As for your subtle attack on k9, he is a big boy and will answer that. Vsicks, This is a politics, religion, blah blah blah topic. Everyone is right and wrong and noone is about to give in or change anyones mind. The comment about the constitution just being a piece of paper is about like me saying gun control in Australia is a good thing in your case, because you are all just descendants of criminals and thus more prone to violence and can't be trusted with deadly weapons. Not nice. I do agree about the Bush tho. He's a classic douche bag. I beg to differ. This is not a politics, religion or a blah blah blah topic. This is a topic which exceeds that. I am sure that those victims of gun related crime/violence would agree. Yes, I agree, opinions are never right or wrong. So use some facts in this topic and move it away from 'your' opinion V's mine. That is what I am waiting for. Let's see if facts can change peoples minds. The quote is "just a goddamned piece of paper" and is a direct quote from George W Bush, your president elect. No matter how you think gun control came about here in Australia, you have to admit, it works. Just look at the facts, they're pretty impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 Something else to think about.... Old (2003) but valid none the less. http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/lc/l...A256D560046ED34 40. Ms Rhiannon to move— That this House: (a) recognises that Harvard University research shows that: (i) only two of the world’s 10 deadliest mass shootings were carried out with illegal weapons—those at Port Arthur in 1996 and Columbine High School, Colorado, in 1999, and (ii) 86% of mass shootings conducted around the world during the past 35 years were committed by lawful gun owners, Yes, I know... We say a 'massacre' even when only two people are killed. That's gun control for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordsho90 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 (edited) The zombies are coming I think I will keep my guns. .........Please inform us here how OZ gun control works and why it works so well....... Edited July 21, 2007 by fordsho90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Here's an example of the public having guns being a good thing... k9sar... Ever heard of a home invasion? Where the criminals break into your house while you and your family are there. It happens. I wouldn't like to see some guy rape my wife and kids then kill'em and not be able to do a damn thing because I didn't have any guns in the house. You're scared of a criminal breaking in to steal your gun? That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day. Do you personally know any cops? Do they all leave their guns at work because they're scared of criminals breaking in their house and stealing them.? Hell no, they keep them within reach at all times.(They're suppose to anyway) Because they KNOW first hand how F'ed up some people really are, and prefer to have protection for themselves and others around them. If you TEACH your kids about gun safety as soon as they're old enough to know what it is and what can happen you shouldn't ever have a problem. My wife doesn't like guns, but you can bet your a$$ she knows how to load/unload and accurately shoot all mine just in case she needs to one day when I'm not around. I taught her the basics... Like: Don't announce your presence, shoot from low to high in a house,(meaning squat down so you're shooting in a upwards direction) know what's behind your target and know that most bullets will pass thru and continue on to strike something else, don't shoot once(3 to 5 shots in the torso is key), but at the same time save ammo in case there is more than one guy in the house. heard of a home invasion? yes. like I said, I have other means of home protection that does not involve a gun. Perhaps you missed that part of my posted opinion. I am not helpless without a gun like you seem to imply. Am I scared of someone breaking into my house to steal a gun? nope. Same reasons I don't leave lots of cash laying around or sit a porsche in my driveway. Why tempt with something that is unnecessary to have? There have been several breakins in my neighborhood and it was only the homes that were known to have stuff desirable (and yea, they caught the guys by putting empty computer boxes out at the curb for the trash and sat the computer within sight through the window). As for cops... several of my best friends are on the force, one of them leads a SWAT team. And yes, he leaves most of his firepower at work. All he has in his home is a basic issued sidearm which he keeps locked up seperate from the ammo though both are accessable. He is not afraid of home invasion either. He leaves his stuff at work because he has kids who have friends who come and go. The more traffic, the higher the chance of an accident (though the chance is still low) The only reason he keeps one at home is if he gets an emergency call and needs to respond quickly. I agree that education is much safer than abstinence, especially if the kids happen upon a weapon at someone elses house or discarded in an alley. That really has no relevance since I can educate my children (and I do) without owning a gun. Again... I stated my opinion. I am not arguing why or why not with respect to your actions. to each his own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 21, 2007 Author Share Posted July 21, 2007 Please inform us here how OZ gun control works and why it works so well....... You're too busy to find out for yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordsho90 Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 You're too busy to find out for yourself? No if your trying to sell people on something that you sooo strongly want for us; then sell the damn thing. Tells us the nuts and bolts and WHY it works so well for OZ; is that too much to ask? And why should I find out for myself I am not the one who started this topic. And btw we don't have a "gun" problem we have a homicide problem. Guns are just an easy method of gettin done; if it wasnt guns it would be something else you can bet your bottom dollar on that. WE LIKE TO KILL EACH OTHER I dont think I can make it anymore clearer than that, we just have a different mentallity here in case you haven't noticed, thats just the way it is. Anywho good luck trying to sell it to a group of people whom obviously DON'T want it as was stated in the V.T thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark94XE Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I appreciate your opinion, and in a perfect world, I believe eliminating all guns would be great. Getting rid of guns wouldn't change anything. Humans have been killing each other since the beginning of time. Guns just happen to be the most efficient way of doing it available right now. Eliminate guns and humans will just find another way of killing each other. Unfortunately it's just human nature. I am a gun enhusiast, but I don't think that sways my view. If the government outlaws guns, only outlaws will have guns. I know that sounds cliche, but it's true. I'm an enthusiast, but I don't carry. I think it's more trouble than it's worth. Just my 2 cents. Not trying to start a firefight... sorry, I couldn't help it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Perhaps we should start with some bottom line numbers. How many murders per year do we have that involve guns? How many accidental shootings per year do we have? How many crimes per year are committed with guns? Are there any other stats to be taken into consideration that involve guns? What are acceptable numbers for any or all of those stats? What is the current estimated population of the US, and what percentage of that population are either murdered, accidentally shot or robbed at gunpoint(for example) per year? I'd take the time to do the research Steve, but I really do have better things to do than web-hop looking for stats on something that's really a moot point anyway due to left-leaning, right-leaning or backwards-leaning statisticians that may or may not be proven right or wrong on the spot by conflicting information from somewhere else on the web. It's not really my idea of a good time, know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 heard of a home invasion? yes. like I said, I have other means of home protection that does not involve a gun. Perhaps you missed that part of my posted opinion. I am not helpless without a gun like you seem to imply. I think if an invader makes his way into your house with a firearm of any time you are more than helpless if you come face to face with a gun wielding criminal...but on the other hand if you could manage to slip up behind him and disarm then not so helpless but I think in the situation the home owner will be caught off guard esp if they aren't flashy with what they have and are ignorant (not saying this is your case) to the fact that the invasion can and will happen... my family was ignorant (even after a break in previously) to this and came home to a ransacked house that had most small electronics stolen and they caught the guys at a later time with firearms on hand...which my mom entered the house while they were still in and luckly they got spooked and ran instead of harming her) in my house growing up there weren't firearms b/c my parents had issues with them...now my mom has been living alone for almost 5 years and her current bf had taught her about guns ad she is no longer scared of them and knows how to safely handle and operate a firearm in the event that she needs to... I know people that had their handguns on them that were robbed at gun point while pumping gas and the guy came up behind them put the gun to their head and demanded their wallets...handed over the wallet and did not turn around as requested b/c they did not want to die...they could have easily tried to grab their pistol turn and shoot which would have almost left them dead on the spot... I keep hearing the same old story here. "Illegal guns" You seem to forget that they were legal once. Do any of you ever give that notion any thought at all? this is a true statement...but I dont forget that they were legal at one point and time...it takes business decisions to make these weapons available...the pawn shop back home had a dirty employee working for them who happened to come down from NYC and knew the ban in NYC and knew the street value of the guns in NYC...somehow the guns were "erased" and they mysteriously showed up in NYC...the truck load they caught if im not mistaken had 700 handguns that had all the serial numbers removed and no trace of registration, purcahse or sale with the business...all because they could get like 3x the value for the weapon selling it on the black market...and with enough money they are still in business granted "under the watchful eye of ATF (or whoever watches that stuff)" I was talking about this thread with a co-worker who happens to be Mexican and is a US Citizen who was telling me about his desire to pick up a 9mm so that he and his wife can have a hobby together to go to the ranges and go shooting...He also was telling me about some guy down in Mexico who randomly told him to give them the information on the gun(s) he wanted and he would have them to him by the end of the week, which my co-worker turned down and told him he was crazy and declined the offer I have also had a friend who has his conceal and carry who was in the AFNG and spent 2 years in Iraq diffuse a nasty situation...I had a friend come over to the house I was at who brought another friend who was starting racial problems and they were all drunk and they were asked to leave which this friend of a friend got pissed and things got heated to the point that knives...baseball bats and brass knuckles (or should i say "paper weights" b/c thats how they are legally sold) were all amongst the crowd and i knew that my 1 friend had an SKS at the house and knew he was 1 that shouldnt have a gun and didnt know if he was going to come back with it so I called his roommate before he left and had him lock it away prior to my other friend "diffusing the situation" with his glock which was not loaded but he told the guy "I've got my glock and if you come near me with the intention to harm me or the others here I will shoot you. I wont kill you but I will shoot you." The other guy straightened and he and his com padres left we all went back inside without any incident. My buddy would not have shot them and he was completely sober BTW but knew that the old cliche of bringing a knife to the gun fight would make these guys leave I have another friend that lives in a bad part of town in charlotte and they have had several people invade the apartment while they were home luckly none had guns just there to do a grab and run...but they were greeted with 2-3 shotguns on them as soon as they came through the door and turn around and briskly ran away (which could be a bad thing b/c they could come back with a gun but that hasnt happened) They also stopped some teenage gang bangers from jumping this helpless indian kid that was taking his trash out...it was like 5 guys around him just kicking and beating the hell out of this kid and my buddy walked out on the balcony cocked the shotgun and yelled leave him the $#&% alone all in one motion and they scattered...he went down and helped the kid off the ground and back to his place... I have been caught in the middle of a gang fight in high school and actually had the fight go through my moms car...she was coming to pick me up after my football game on a friday night (I was on JV at the time and help out with the V team) and like 15 guys came up to this 1 guy and started beating the @!*% out of him right as soon as i went to get in my moms car...he wound up scrambling down the side of my moms car while she was screaming and trying to rip my little brother out of the back seat (2 door car) and me and another one of my buddies getting a ride with me (about 300lbs 6'8") were shoving the guys away from the guy getting jumped and one of the jumpers pulled a gun right in front of me (this is when me and my teammate said ohh @!*% and jumped over the door of the car where its hinged and ran inside) while the guy getting jumped scrambled through our car (in the pass side and out the driver) while 3 guys followed him and they all ran...meanwhile 15 or so cop cars show up they find like 3 stolen handguns...put the school on lockdown (there was a dance after the game) found a gun on a guy in the dance...and arrested 1 guy b/c he returned and asked the police if they recovered a firearm and they asked him which 1 and he picked it out then they arrested his dumb ass for having an illegal handgun being under 21 and being on school grounds so I think that tallied up to 3 felony's... I know a cop that got shot pt blank in the chest while arresting this drug dealer whose vest saved his life and his only saving grace from having his scull bashed in by his baton (some how came off his belt during his fall backwards to the ground)was a passerby soldier and wife who saw the whole thing go down and as soon as the shot was fired they got out of their vehicle and pulled the guy off of my buddy since he was in shock and beat the hell out him until backup arrived like a min later..only because they could not believewhat was happening when we have soldiers dying in and they want to kill a cop perusing them over something illegal so with all of that (didnt mean to write a book) it may not have been the best way to handle situations just the intentions behind the design of a gun influenced people to get back in line...granted they could have had bad results they didnt...but once again i will say that laws are made to be broken and that is y we have overcrowded jails and a law banning guns and/or limiting more than what it already does would only punish the ones who do right...I am one who broke the law by drinking alcohol and using tobacco starting at the age of 14 or so...and God only knows when I was introduced to porn...probably when I was like 11 or 12...along with the adults that supplied me...There was a place in high school you could go get a 12 pack, a tank of gas, a dime bag of pot and a bucket of fried chicken for like $25 or so plus the gas...no questions asked...it was that easy and so is access to everything else illegal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 I appreciate your opinion, and in a perfect world, I believe eliminating all guns would be great. Getting rid of guns wouldn't change anything. Humans have been killing each other since the beginning of time. Guns just happen to be the most efficient way of doing it available right now. Eliminate guns and humans will just find another way of killing each other. Unfortunately it's just human nature. I am a gun enhusiast, but I don't think that sways my view. If the government outlaws guns, only outlaws will have guns. I know that sounds cliche, but it's true. I'm an enthusiast, but I don't carry. I think it's more trouble than it's worth. Just my 2 cents. Not trying to start a firefight... sorry, I couldn't help it. Ok, off the top of your head... What would be used to kill up to.... say, 30 people in one sitting because you lost your temper? As far as illegal guns go.. how many do you think are out there? I would surmise that there is around one illegal weapon for every legal one. Does that sound about right? As I said earlier, I don't have an opinion either way on this issue, more so because I don't like people losing their rights. For this reason I am neither for or against the notion of gun control. But I am saying that gun control works as a matter of fact. Why? Because it worked here and has worked in other countries too. You guys live in fear of being shot, and because of that very reason you need a gun to protect yourselves. If no one can see an endless cycle with that reasoning, then, IMO, they are blind. It is fear that compels you to arm yourself. Just look at the replies and that becomes obvious. I have never know such fear. Even before we had gun control, that fear was never there. We still have guns here. I could apply to the correct authorities and get a gun license after all mandatory checks are completed. We just don't have guns that are capable of killing en mass anymore. Sure, the criminals still have them..... So what! They spend most of the time killing each other with them. Even that is becoming rearer here too. At the end of the day, looking at alternatives is better than doing nothing at all, which is what you guys have been doing. Surely after another shooting you guys ask yourselves.. Again? Why? How? Why don't you ask how to stop it from happening in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsicks Pathy Posted July 22, 2007 Author Share Posted July 22, 2007 Perhaps we should start with some bottom line numbers. How many murders per year do we have that involve guns? How many accidental shootings per year do we have? How many crimes per year are committed with guns? Are there any other stats to be taken into consideration that involve guns? What are acceptable numbers for any or all of those stats? What is the current estimated population of the US, and what percentage of that population are either murdered, accidentally shot or robbed at gunpoint(for example) per year? I'd take the time to do the research Steve, but I really do have better things to do than web-hop looking for stats on something that's really a moot point anyway due to left-leaning, right-leaning or backwards-leaning statisticians that may or may not be proven right or wrong on the spot by conflicting information from somewhere else on the web. It's not really my idea of a good time, know what I mean? It takes all of two seconds to get that info. I have it already.. Keeping to facts is easy too. Though stuff like this artical is factual, you can see the direction that the "assembler" is leaning. I prefer to collect data from reputable agencies. Not only is data available straight away, it isn't tainted with personal agendas either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 If it takes 2 seconds, then post it up. I can't get Google to give me answers that easily. It gives me pages and pages and pages of results with the only way to find anything being to check every one of them. We need population control anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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