94LE-BlackEmerald Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 (edited) (First time post, long time lurker.) After reading about replacing the manifolds with headers for what seems like forever, I finally took the plunge when it became too embarassing to drive around. I have to say that all the advice and instructions out there on this topic were fantastically helpful. I didn't break a single stud. However, I have one (major?) problem. I had new studs and gasket installed on the pasenger side in August 2004. When I removed the header, I discovered no stud, no nothing in the top, rear-most, passenger side hole. See the photos below. What I need to know is what I should do. Basically, it looks like the repair shop broke a bolt (or just drilled it out.) The new hole is offset, so they did not drill very straight/centered. I can't tell, but it looks like they did not drill as deep as the last hole, so I'm at least hoping they didn't hit the water jacket and patch from there. It also looks like there may be some faint remnants of threads where they put in a larger bolt, and it just ripped out over time. Anyway, is this something I can fix? Should I go back to the repair shop and demand that they pay for the repairs? Basically, what are my options? If you say that this has to go into the shop, then what else should I have fixed? I have an oil leak (rear main seal, I presume), I may be losing a little coolant (but each time I get the oil changed, Jiffy Lube says I need a new cap or something -- I bit once, but not twice), and the old Pathy is generally running like crap (absolutely no power). (FYI, I'm a motivated, but novice wrench.) http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/johnsonpa/closeup.jpg http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/joh...pa/distance.jpg http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/johnsonpa/medium.jpg Edited July 18, 2007 by 94LE-BlackEmerald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostPath Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Since the original repair shop did not tell you what had happened or offer you the option of deciding how it should be repaired, I'd say they owe you a new head and the labor to replace it. So, yes, go back there and demand that they fix it. They broke off the stud in the head, then overdrilled it (badly) and threaded it just to get the job done. At this point the proper repair is head replacement. There's a way to jury rig it, but I'd get the head replaced. It's not worth messing with. As for no power, check your valve timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 (edited) one of my stud holes ended up looking like that after i couldn't get the busted stud out.... we used a tap to re-thread the hole and it is fine..... pushed the limit to the waterjacket, but didn't hit it.... the old stud had literally welded itself inside the stud hole.. we used the tap and re-threaded the hole and it has worked fine since..... if oyu paid for that mistake of theirs, get your $$ back or have them fix it, if not, re-thread it and move on with your header install Edited July 12, 2007 by Slick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msavides Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I had 3 break on me. 2 of them i got to remove with an extractor and the third one i did not drill straight and took out some of the threads. I drilled it a little larger and installed a helicoil. I have had no problem. If it is not drill way too big you could have a helicoil installed. First take it back to the shop and bitch at them. Mark (First time post, long time lurker.) After reading about replacing the manifolds with headers for what seems like forever, I finally took the plunge when it became too embarassing to drive around. I have to say that all the advice and instructions out there on this topic were fantastically helpful. I didn't break a single stud. However, I have one (major?) problem. I had new studs and gasket installed on the pasenger side in August 2004. When I removed the header, I discovered no stud, no nothing in the top, rear-most, passenger side hole. See the photos below. What I need to know is what I should do. Basically, it looks like the repair shop broke a bolt (or just drilled it out.) The new hole is offset, so they did not drill very straight/centered. I can't tell, but it looks like they did not drill as deep as the last hole, so I'm at least hoping they didn't hit the water jacket and patch from there. It also looks like there may be some faint remnants of threads where they put in a larger bolt, and it just ripped out over time. Anyway, is this something I can fix? Should I go back to the repair shop and demand that they pay for the repairs? Basically, what are my options? If you say that this has to go into the shop, then what else should I have fixed? I have an oil leak (rear main seal, I presume), I may be losing a little coolant (but each time I get the oil changed, Jiffy Lube says I need a new cap or something -- I bit once, but not twice), and the old Pathy is generally running like crap (absolutely no power). (FYI, I'm a motivated, but novice wrench.) http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/johnsonpa/closeup.jpg http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/joh...pa/distance.jpg http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b379/johnsonpa/medium.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94LE-BlackEmerald Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 Thanks for the advice. I think I am going to brave a helicoil. I really want to take my pathy back to them and show them what they did, but it might be more trouble than its worth getting it down to the shop. The shop is a couple miles away, so unless I'm going to go the distance and make them pay for the repairs, I can't justify having it towed down there. FWIW, I stuck a drill bit in the big**s hole, and it's larger than 3/8" but smaller than 7/16". I've ordered an M10-1.5 and a 7/16-14 helicoil kit. I'll have to drill the header if the M10 kit doesn't work because the hole on the header is less than 7/16". I may still have to drill the header since the hole isn't centered. Ugh! Anyway, thanks again for the help. Any other advice, cautions, words-of-wisdom are welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 One stud missing usually isn't much of a problem, especially all the way at the end of the head. I'd probably just leave it alone and use the other holes to install the headers with, then see if it leaks or causes any undue problems down the line. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey.T Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 One stud missing usually isn't much of a problem, especially all the way at the end of the head. I'd probably just leave it alone and use the other holes to install the headers with, then see if it leaks or causes any undue problems down the line. My 2 cents. I would agree with this... My 95 has that stud missing as well... The original Head from the 91 had a helicoil... If I ever get around to rebuilding those heads I will utilize the other 2 holes... Have someone fab up a "C" Bracket or something ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 (edited) One stud missing usually isn't much of a problem, especially all the way at the end of the head. I'd probably just leave it alone and use the other holes to install the headers with, then see if it leaks or causes any undue problems down the line. leaving 1 stud out will cause the mating flange to warp and cause bigger exhaust leaks over time (esp if you do a lot of highway driving) about the best way to fix that is to pull the head off the truck and get it on a table where you can get to it...or jack the body up off of the frame but thats not real safe (working between the frame and body) other than that I would let it go...it took quite a while for my 95 to get bad and i didnt notice it getting bad until i started driving a lot of highway miles for about 2 hrs a day...but didnt want to attempt it in the truck since i didnt have a 90 deg drill...my 87 i fixed when I broke a timing belt and i had a total of 6 studs break off including the rear pass side that had broken off ages before i got it Edited July 13, 2007 by unccpathfinder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94LE-BlackEmerald Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 (edited) So where did I go wrong? I installed the headers and have everything bolted up, and the pathy is still as loud as freight train Everything sounds pretty quiet idling and even when revving the engine, but as soon as the truck is under a load/in gear, it is as loud as before. With windows down, it's pretty loud from either side as I pass cars parked on the side of the road. The passenger side seems a bit louder, though. I'm thinking it may be the slip-on crossover pipe. Thoughts? Install notes: helicoil seemed to work okay, all nuts were torqued to 15 lbs. if I could get the torque wrench on it, headers were machined flat, used felpro gasket for headers, used rtv copper/silicone gasket sealer, thorley gaskets after heads on downtube... A couple of other notes that may be helpful, upon first starting it up after bolting everything up, I had some smoke coming from the EGR tube where it plugs into the header. I'm guessing it was the anti-sieze I put on the nut. I also had some smoke from the passenger side, but I could not pinpoint the location (header vs. downtube). Now I have the smell of burning rubber/plastic, but I guess that's because I have some hoses too close to the headers (non-ceramic). I'm pretty frustrated at this point, so any help would be appreciated. The whole purpose of the header install was to quiet the engine...at least a little! Edited July 18, 2007 by 94LE-BlackEmerald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Pinpoint where it leaks from. Have someone else sit in it and give it gas while you listen or listen for the leak at idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msavides Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 So where did I go wrong? I installed the headers and have everything bolted up, and the pathy is still as loud as freight train Everything sounds pretty quiet idling and even when revving the engine, but as soon as the truck is under a load/in gear, it is as loud as before. With windows down, it's pretty loud from either side as I pass cars parked on the side of the road. The passenger side seems a bit louder, though. I'm thinking it may be the slip-on crossover pipe. Thoughts? Install notes: helicoil seemed to work okay, all nuts were torqued to 15 lbs. if I could get the torque wrench on it, headers were machined flat, used felpro gasket for headers, used rtv copper/silicone gasket sealer, thorley gaskets after heads on downtube... A couple of other notes that may be helpful, upon first starting it up after bolting everything up, I had some smoke coming from the EGR tube where it plugs into the header. I'm guessing it was the anti-sieze I put on the nut. I also had some smoke from the passenger side, but I could not pinpoint the location (header vs. downtube). Now I have the smell of burning rubber/plastic, but I guess that's because I have some hoses too close to the headers (non-ceramic). I'm pretty frustrated at this point, so any help would be appreciated. The whole purpose of the header install was to quiet the engine...at least a little! I had problems with the collector bolts backing off and ruining the gaskets. I bought some copper ones from summit and all has been perfect. Also you may have to retorque your header bolts they will loosen up after a couple of heat cycles as the gasket material will compress with each heat cycle. I wish they made copper header gaskets but I was unable to locate them. Did you check to headers for leaks before installation. I taped mine up and blew into them to check. I also ordered a clamp for the crossover pipe as I was leaking there. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94LE-BlackEmerald Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 Well, there is definitely a leak in at least one place. Everything is even louder now, like I don't even have a muffler. I'm going to get back under the hood this weekend, listen for leaks, see what has come loose, etc. I suspect I'm going to have to replace the gaskets at the collector tubes. I already have one gasket that looks like 4 pieces of metal sandwiched together. Are those the copper gaskets msavides is talking about? Also, should I use the RTV copper/silicone on the collector gaskets? Also, how clean should the heads be before I bolt up the headers? I spent at least a couple hours on each head alternating between scraping and spraying with brake cleaner, but some places were never really all that smooth. Should I use something that's more abrasive to clean the heads to get them smooth as a baby's butt or will the RTV silicone be enough? Oh, finally, to answer msavides' question, I checked the headers for leaks (tape method) before I had them machined flat but not afterwards. If I pull the headers off, I'll check them again. Thanks again for the help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostPath Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Well, there is definitely a leak in at least one place. Everything is even louder now, like I don't even have a muffler. I'm going to get back under the hood this weekend, listen for leaks, see what has come loose, etc. I suspect I'm going to have to replace the gaskets at the collector tubes. I already have one gasket that looks like 4 pieces of metal sandwiched together. Are those the copper gaskets msavides is talking about? Also, should I use the RTV copper/silicone on the collector gaskets? Also, how clean should the heads be before I bolt up the headers? I spent at least a couple hours on each head alternating between scraping and spraying with brake cleaner, but some places were never really all that smooth. Should I use something that's more abrasive to clean the heads to get them smooth as a baby's butt or will the RTV silicone be enough? Oh, finally, to answer msavides' question, I checked the headers for leaks (tape method) before I had them machined flat but not afterwards. If I pull the headers off, I'll check them again. Thanks again for the help! Never EVER use RTV to seal exhaust parts! It'll catch on fire! There are exhaust sealants specifically designed for that. And, yes, you should get them cleaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
94LE-BlackEmerald Posted July 20, 2007 Author Share Posted July 20, 2007 LOL! That would explain the smoke when I first started it up after bolting it together. FWIW, the smoke also promptly sent me to the store to buy a fire extinguisher to put in my car! Just so I have this right: I use the RTV copper/silicone sealer on the headers, something like this: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku And I use, I guess, I higher temp sealer for the collectors? Can someone suggest a brand, type, etc.? Well, it looks like I'm going to have to strip it all down. Oh well...live and learn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark94XE Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 I use permatex Ultra Copper on all sorts of exhaust applications and it works fine. Why did you have your headers machined flat? Did you buy them used? Were the mounting flanges warped? What looks like ridges at the collector tubes are there for a reason, they are designed that way to seal better. I have never actualy seen the Thorleys for a Nissan, I'm speaking from SBC and Datsun L6 experience. I hope you have not created a problem from having the flanges machined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msavides Posted July 21, 2007 Share Posted July 21, 2007 Well, there is definitely a leak in at least one place. Everything is even louder now, like I don't even have a muffler. I'm going to get back under the hood this weekend, listen for leaks, see what has come loose, etc. I suspect I'm going to have to replace the gaskets at the collector tubes. I already have one gasket that looks like 4 pieces of metal sandwiched together. Are those the copper gaskets msavides is talking about? Also, should I use the RTV copper/silicone on the collector gaskets? Also, how clean should the heads be before I bolt up the headers? I spent at least a couple hours on each head alternating between scraping and spraying with brake cleaner, but some places were never really all that smooth. Should I use something that's more abrasive to clean the heads to get them smooth as a baby's butt or will the RTV silicone be enough? Oh, finally, to answer msavides' question, I checked the headers for leaks (tape method) before I had them machined flat but not afterwards. If I pull the headers off, I'll check them again. Thanks again for the help! These are the gaskets I used from summit http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku I used the permatex copper stuff as well on mine. I cleaned my heads using a fine 3m abrasive pad on a die grinder. Got them at harbor freight. take about a min to clean the entire head surface. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 to pinpoint the leak you can put soapy water in a spray bottle and spray it at all of your connections if it bubbles theres your leak...I woudlnt do this with the exhaust at running temperature...but that may help you pinpoint...also check the top side of the cat and muffler...when i got my 87 they both rusted in from the top side from the dirt and what not collecting up there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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