Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 (edited) Greetings. First off I just wanted to say what a great forum this is. I came here first about a year ago and have learned quite a bit, so thanks! My car has sufferred from stalling problems for about a year, which drove me to this forum originally. I'm not much of a mechanic, but with the aid of two chiltons and the fine advice offered up here I feel comfortable tackling most things. My car will stall without warning, driving down the freeway at 60 mph (every 60-100 miles or so). When it stalls, I lose all power including brakes and power steering. The car will also stall driving in the city. Frequently after it stalls it is very hard to start and may take 5-10 minutes. When trying to start it the engine cranks really good. Sometimes when trying to start it after it stalls it will sputter for a few seconds but will not respond to the accelerator. Sometimes I will drive a short distance to the store, come back out and the car won't start for about 5-10 minutes. Also, sometimes when I go out first thing in the morning it won't start for a while. Sometimes it will drive fine with no problems for 5-6 days in a row! When it is driving fine the engine runs strong and I get about 14.7 mpg. I have noticed that the car tends to stall more when going up steep hills, and is harder to start on steep hills (pointing up). I have also noticed that the car stalls more when there is less than half a tank of gas. I have also noticed that the tachometer jumps around a bit (+-50 rpm when idling) before it stalls. If I rev it up to 4000-4500 rpm it seems to buy me some time and the idle behaves normally for a while. Here is what I have tried so far: I have replace the air filter I have replaced the fuel filter I have cleaned the TBI unit with carb cleaner I have run a bottle of that red injector cleaner fuel additive through a tank of gas I checked the ECU codes 6-months ago and ran the diagnostics - everything came back fine I have replaced the distributor rotor and cap and double checked that the spark plug wires are hooked to the proper plugs I have cleaned the MAF (but not tried to test it by unplugging the harness) Does anyone have any ideas? The fact that it runs so good 95% of the time (other than the stalling) leads me to believe it is not the O2 sensor or a vacuum leak. I'm wondering if it might be more elctrical, like something with the ignition coil? Today I plan on inspecting fuseable links by the positive battery terminal. I'm also going to check the ECU codes again. I've also seen some references to a possible bad ignition module on the back of the coil mount. Is there a way I can test this? I have an Ohm meter. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated! Edited January 22, 2007 by Mr_Larry 89 SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 21, 2006 Share Posted August 21, 2006 Sounds like a fuel problem. I'd check your sending unit (on top of the gas tank) to see if any of the wires are corroded, causing an intermittent loss of fuel pressure. Also, could be that the fuel pump is going. But I'd check those electrical connections on the sending unit first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I would have guessed fuel filter but faulty fuel pressure from the pump could also do it. When it stalls, does the engine just cut out, or does it kind of splutter a bit and die ? I'm guessing you have an automagic so no info if you can keep it running if you push the clutch in ? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Yeah B, I thought fuel filter as well, but he mentioned he replaced it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 The car is a manual, 5-speed. Simon, I think you are on to something with the fuel sending unit or the fuel pump may be going. Do I have to take the whole gas tank off to get at the fuel sending unit? When reviewing previous posts I recall reading one where someone said there was some sort of access panel through the back of the truck, under the carpet. Do you know if this is true of the '89? I can't seem to see much from under the truck, and the thought of pulling the tank isn't too appealing. Yesterday I spent a few hours under the hood. I checked out all the fuseable links on the positive battery terminal and cleaned them off - they were pretty dirty. Next I pulled off the air cleaner so that I could get good access to the distributor. Using my ohm meter I checked each of the spark plug cables for resistance from the bottom of the distributor cap to the end of each spark plug and they all were fine. Next, while running the engine, I would pull off one spark plug from the distributor and check for any change in the idle. Removing the plugs and replacing them one at a time impacted the idle speed for all but the number 5 cylinder. After repeating the experiment a couple of times it seemed pretty apparent that the 5th cylinder wasn't firing. I pulled the spark plug out of the 5th cylinder to inspect it and it looked fine. Shining a flashlight down into the opening I kind of expected to see the glint of shiny metal down there but it was all black. I couldn't tell if I was just not seeing anything or if I was seeing something nasty. I then took out the number one spark plug to compare to number 5 and they were identical. I am still interested in running some electrical tests on the ignition coil but I'm having trouble accessing it. There's that damn plastic air hose that runs from the inside of the front left fender to the air cleaner that is in the way (the big 3 inch diameter thing). I couldn't figure out how to remove that thing to get access to the coil underneath. Does anyone know how to pull that out? It looks like it is snapped in there with plastic hardware that will break. Thanks for your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 B, It is a manual. Pushing the clutch in will not save it. It usually dies quite abruptly. A bigger telling sign may be the way it tries to start on the first try after a stall. Usually the first time I crank it after it stalls it turns over and ignites, but only reaches about 200-300 rpm and stutters and stalls, being totally unresponsive to any feedback from the accelerator. It does seem like it is being starved for gas when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Maybe your injectors are clogged up, or you have a clog in the fuel line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 There should be an access panel under the carpet in the cargo area......I know there is on my 95......worst case scenario, open the hatch, and have a look....it takes about 10 seconds to pull up the carpet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Ahh, that's what that thing I dynamatted over is... J/K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Maybe your injectors are clogged up, or you have a clog in the fuel line. prolly not injectors. Hard to imagine all 6 clogging at once. Gotta be something in the fuel delivery system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Yeah B, I thought fuel filter as well, but he mentioned he replaced it.... Yep, I saw that, but missed it was a manual... I doubt it is the case, but check the wiring for the clutch cut out switch. Wierd about cyl #5... could the wire be broken ? Try switching that wire with another and see if the problem stays with #5 or moves with the wire... Fuel pressure regulator clogged or malfunctioning ? I HATE intermittent issues !! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 B: I see you are up in Petaluma. Maybe I should pick up a case of beer and drive up there and you can help me sort through it! I'm in San Francisco. I should also mentioned I just passed the smog check a few weeks ago. That was a huge surprise! I'm going to go down and try to access the fuel pump assembly through the access panel in the cargo area. I'll report back later. And there is nothing wrong with the wire to the number 5 cylinder: I tested it with the ohm meter. What I should have done while I had the spark plug out is check to see if the plug sparked. oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Well, obviously, it didn't act up when it was being smogged... I think they fail cars that die during the test. Oops, I better update my info, I moved to Santa Rosa. Still, not a long drive though. You are welcome to come up if you want some help or just say hi, whatever... I do have a garage and most tools that could be needed. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 It passed smog? That is an indicator cylinder 5 was firing - at least at that time! If one cylinder is dead, it will be pumping lots of raw HC and it will fail. Not an answer, but trying to help by interpreting clues wherever possible. Still thinking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 (edited) I think I'm finally getting somewhere! After getting under the carpet in the cargo area and opening the access panel, I traced my way back to the harness assembly to check that out. It was pretty muddy but inside it was clean. (Also, I took some picture with my camera phone which I may try to post later) I decided to go back and run the diagnostics on the ECU unit. First I tried to retrieve any error codes, and what do you know? Error code 11. Then I ran diagnostic test number 5, and came up with FOUR green flashes from the LED. According to the shop manual for the VG30E (Mine is a VG30i) this code means: The signal from the primary ignition coil momentarily drops off. I thought it might be something with the ignition coil originally (see my first post). Should I just go out and buy a new ignition coil for $30? Could it also be the power transistor control module for $110? If I was a betting man I'd guess it would be the $110 part, not the $30 part! Also, how do you remove that big plastic air tube that goes to the left front fender, and directly over the ignition coil? I can't even get my hands underneath that air intake tube. B: Thanks for the offer! Hopefully I get this thing fixed and we can drive some trails some time. Edited August 23, 2006 by Mr_Larry 89 SE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mws Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I am not an expert on the ignition system as mine hasn't even burped yet, but from what I've heard, the transistor control module is one of the more common root causes for (the wonderfully very rare) ignition failures in WD21's. Also, I have a spare ECU out of an '88 manual you can borrow if you begin suspecting it might be the culprit. I see no reason to do so yet, but if you do, PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 prolly not injectors. Hard to imagine all 6 clogging at once. Gotta be something in the fuel delivery system It doesn't have 6 injectors, it has 2. From the 88 FSM: Power Transistor testing procedure: 1. Disconnect main wiring harnesses for both the coil and the power transistor. Leave the t-type connector for the coil plugged in. 2. On the power transistor main input power connector, the locking tab should be facing up as you look at it. You should be able to see four tabs inside. They are numbered as follows: TAB ON TOP 1(blue)_______4(black/white) 2(black/pink)__3(white) 3. 1 is the coil's 12VDC+. 2 is the feed from the ECU. 3 is to engine ground. 4 is to the coil's 12VDC-. 4. Turn the ignition on, but do not start the engine. Test for battery voltage on #1. 12VDC+ should exist. 5. Test continuity between terminals 1 or 4 and terminal 3. Positive lead goes on 1 or 4, negative on 3. There should be no continuity. 6. Test continuity between terminals 1 or 4 and terminal 3 again, but the positive lead goes on 3. Negative goes on 1 or 4. There should be continuity. 7. Test continuity between terminals 1 or 4 and terminal 2. Positive lead goes on 1 or 4, negative on 2. There should be no continuity. 8. Test continuity between terminals 1 or 4 and terminal 2 again, but the positive lead goes on 2. Negative goes on 1 or 4. There should be continuity. 9. Test continuity between 3 and engine ground. There should be continuity. If you have no continuity where you should have it, the power transistor should be replaced. I can't find the exact testing procedure for the coil, but there should be continuity between the + and - terminals and NOT between either one of those and the coil wire output, nor the grounded base of the coil. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 88: Thanks for the testing procedures. I have located the coil primary and secondary testing procedures. How do I remove the big plastic air tube going from the front left fender to the air cleaner? The coil is directly underneath it and I can't get at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 u can popl the fender off...theres 3 on the door side like 4 or 5 on the top side then i think if u pop the corner light out theres 1 behind it and 1 or 2 more on that front edge then u can pinch the clips and back them out from inside... did u check all of ure relays? possibly has something to do with 1 kicking on when pressure drops after it warms up (im not even sure thats how it works but just a thought) i've also got a coil out of an 87 thats got maybe 2 months on it if its the same as ures say $15 and u can have it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88pathoffroad Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 There's a little plastic push-in tab or two that holds that to the fenderwell. Find that and yoink it, or just plain yank on the intake tube till it comes off. Heh. A door trim removal tool works well for those, they're hard to get a hold of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Yeah, it's those plastic snap things in there. It kinda makes sense that you would have to take the front left fender off to remove that thing. After all, it is a Pathfinder! This might have to wait for a few days. I'm done for taoday and Ted Nugent is coming to town tomorrow and there are a whole bunch of festivities lined up. I'm sure Ted could get the air duct off. Thanks for all of your help and suggestions and I will report back in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 well go enjoy Ted...and i cant remember 100% but u might have to remove the windshield wipeers and cowl but once its loose it should just come off if its tight at all theres still a screw somewhere good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushmaster Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Mr. Larry...I'm also new to the forum and have a similar problem as yours. My '91 SE runs perfect...last time 2 weeks with no problem, then "bam", out of the clear, it goes dead, no fire or fuel, no sputter or anything just dead. I try and restart immediately and it cranks but doesn't fire. After a couple of minutes, try it again and it starts up normal. I drive a few blocks and it does it again, with the same results on a restart. After it restarted this afternoon I drove it home (3-4 miles) and parked it and left it idling. Ran perfect. It is a 5 spd. I have replaced the fuel filter and inspected the plugs, dist. cap, wires, and everything there is fine. Is this more or less what yours has been doing? Have not run ECU codes yet. Any ideas from anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 Bushmaster: That sounds exactly like what my problem is. I would check the ECU codes. If you come up with an 11, then run diagnostic test #5. If it is only the coil or the transistor controller for the coil, then I'll be happy. I've also done all the things you have done plus more. My problem has been going on for a year. I know if I take it to a dealer they will replace the fuel pump and about 4 other perfectly good parts and give it back to me still not working. Here is a thread on running the ECU diagnostics: http://www.nissanpathfinders.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21 I also have some more detailed information on the codes if you need it. good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Larry 89 SE Posted January 22, 2007 Author Share Posted January 22, 2007 I finally took my car to a mechanic to get the problem properly diagnosed. I had thought there was a problem with the ignition coil or even the fuel pump. It turns out the problem was with the distributor. They charged me a whopping $525 for a remanufactured distributor and 2 hours of labor (@ $125/hr) to diagnose and install it. After spending $820 on a car with a blue book of maybe $2000, she seems to be running like a champ. I've put about 200 miles on her and she hasn't stalled yet. That would be a record for not stalling. She only has 127,000 miles on her, so I figure she has another 100,000 left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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