Breaking My Own Rule

[vengeful]

Disclaimer: I know I know! I know I never said I'd start a political related discussion, but this could be big, and I feel it needs to be brought to attention. Please keep your heads out of your arses on this one, and not resort to flaming. I know that politically oriented discussions can become heated, but try to maintain your cool. If this gets out of hand, this thread will disappear.

 

Link to the article on MSNBC

 

This is interesting. A Federal judge has ordered a halt to the warrantless wiretap program being used by the National Security Agency, on grounds that it violates the Constitution. NSA has filed an appeal stating that the President is given the power to use "any means necessary" to protect national interests in the Consitution.

 

This could become a huge battle in the coming months, and will DEFINITELY be an issue on voters minds come November.

 

On the upside, this shouldn't affect oil prices.

 

Discuss.

 

Do you agree with the Judges ruling? Do you think the Government is right? Do you think the ruling should stand unless the Government reveals how this is a legal program?

 

The government states that they can PROVE this is fully legal, but in order to do so they would have to reveal state secrets. IMO then, it's not really legal if you can't tell us why it's legal, then is it?

[mws]

It's a tough question...

 

Many Americans appear to be expecting and desiring our government to provide more security against "terrorism", but there is that sticky little detail we believe in called the US Constitution.

 

In the eyes of many experts, many of the "homeland security" activities GW has initiated and/or approved of are in direct violation of the Constitution and that may become GW's legacy - the president who ran most roughshod over the Constitution and not only got away with it, but had a lot of public support in doing so.

 

Personally, I'd like to see some public discourse and decisions about this very topic: Which is more important, perception of security, or constitutional rights? We are at a point in history where compromises and violations are being made at an unprecedented rate, I'd prefer it be done in public and with our approval. We each need to consider which we'd prefer and accept that we need to give up some of the other.

[vengeful]

Personally, I'd like to see some public discourse and decisions about this very topic: Which is more important, perception of security, or constitutional rights?

Exactly. This issue is going to be one for the textbooks. It's definitely a difficult issue, because everyone wants BOTH. But, you know the saying: "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." This is a prime example of that. So, which will it be? Only time will tell, but I can assure one thing. Candidates around the country are paying close attention to this developing story and will be using their position on it in their campaigns for office. The voters will decide in November, assuming more than 40% of the population actually gets off their asses and votes!

 

That's another thing that pisses me off! Roughly 50% of the population votes in a Presidential election year, and maybe half of them vote in non-Presidential years....yet EVERYONE complains about the poor job the government is doing. I have no ground to complain about the job that Bush is doing, because, as much as I hate to admit that I voted for him, and as much as I disagree with his stances on many issues, and the way he has handled many things, I could not bring myself to vote for Kerry. The vast majority of the country is in the same boat, either they didn't vote, so they have no room to bitch, or they voted for Bush (after all, he did win the election!). Yet, you never hear about people who support him...I am not a Conservative/Republican, and I am not a Liberal/Democrat. I do not associate with any Party. There are issues that I have conservative viewpoints on and there are issues that I have liberal viewpoints on. I vote for the candidate who will best represent MY interests and the interests of The USA as a whole, in my eyes. I felt that Kerry would do a terrible job, and would do much more harm than good considering the state of the Country in 2004 - that is why I voted against him.

 

The beautiful thing about our Country is that the people have the power to make changes. The sad thing is that most of the people either don't know about this power, or don't care, or are too self-involved to get their lazy asses down to the voting booths in November. It's not even hot outside! Even if you don't vote in the Primaries, even if you haven't been paying a lot of attention, review the canditates websites the night before, and VOTE! Just VOTE! It's your RIGHT, no...it's more than that...it's your DUTY as an American Citizen to do so. So damnit, VOTE! It is a dream of mine to see an election before I die in which more than 75% of the nations population turns out for the election. I realize it's probably a pipe dream, but it's there, and it's very real.

[The Drift]

A. The constitution is over-rated and out-dated. It could use some serious revisions

 

B. Wire tap away. I have nothing to hide. Do whatever you want to provide me with security as long as it doesn't inconvenience me as a regular law abiding citizen.

 

C. I'm not a Bush fan if anyone is questioning that right now, but I stand by a few of his decisions. I stress FEW.

 

 

 

Honestly though? We need another 9/11. Maybe 2 or 3. Maybe, just maybe when what these crazed lunatics affects us (Americans) a bit more we might wake up and be a bit pissed off. Then we might actually be capable of policing our selves. Rather than sit back and hope the government takes care of us WE might take innitiative. We might get buddy buddy with our muslim neighbor and find out he's making bombs in his garage and beat his stupid terrorist face in and let our dog hump his dead ass. Seriously, get lax on the security a bit let them drop a few attacks on us and let us police ourselves. We need to make these bastards scared of what we'd do to them if we catch em.

 

 

Screw our PC ass government. If I catch a terrorist I''ll lock him in a room with some dogs and 3 of my gay friends for a week straight. Screw helping him be a martyr. Screw reasoning. Kill them with embarrasment.

[The Drift]

PS Venge great posts in this one.

[vengeful]

Screw our PC ass government. If I catch a terrorist I''ll lock him in a room with some dogs and 3 of my gay friends for a week straight. Screw helping him be a martyr. Screw reasoning. Kill them with embarrasment.

Tell us how you really feel!

[The Drift]

Tell us how you really feel!

I could go on until my fingers bleed from typing.

 

 

 

Our country is full of pussies who don't care about crap unless it affects them fueling the ir uneccessary and disgustingly oversized vehicles.

 

We raise our kids now to have no sense of competition. Everyone gets a medal now, whether you win or not. Lil Johnny doesn't have any clue what winning means b/c he gets a trophy for 153rd place out of 155.

 

Guess what lil Johnny winning is everything. If you're not winning you're losing and losing sucks. Give me back that trophy you whiny brat and go get better!!!!

 

Everyone has skin that is paper thin. Everyone is offended by everything. Oh I'm an athiest don't say god or christmas, it's holidays. Oh I'm a christian don't say no god and holidays. Eat crap and chill out. WHO CARES. Develop some skin baby. Don't call me a cheap ass cuz I'm jewish. Well I am frugal (lol seriously) and I am Jewish so call it as it is. I can take it cuz I'm not a damn *****. Oh and guess what I have more money than you so I WIN.

 

I'm so sick of being surrounded by complete bitches these days. Our forefathers that came over and took this nation with bravery and fierceness would be ashamed!! They were the real bad asses. Now all we've got is a nation of pussified wimps who just want to enjoy their double tall mochachino latte while sitting in the comfort of their 1mpg Ford Schoolbus and do absolutely nothing to preserve that right.

 

 

OK break time.

[The Drift]

Hey terrorists if we catch ya we are going to put you in jail

 

 

 

0h N0z0rrrrz N0t t3H J4iL!!!!

 

 

Dude, look at the crap ass third world countries these people come from. Putting them in prison is probably doing them a damn favor.

 

 

 

 

You threaten to kill or jail an american you might scare them. Our principles tell us that is bad.

 

 

You kill or threaten our terrorist buddies they could care less. To them they are now a hero. Fight them with what they fear same as you do with the badguys in America.

[vengeful]

So...what you're saying is paint their nails pink, cut their hair and dump them nude in the middle of DuPont Circle during Gay Pride Week?

 

[The Drift]

So...what you're saying is paint their nails pink, cut their hair and dump them nude in the middle of DuPont Circle during Gay Pride Week?

 

Dude, if you were a hot chick I'd so sy I loved you right now.

 

 

 

 

 

*High five*

[Casey.T]

This is a good one....

 

Its not like illegal wire taps have never been done... Amazing how the fingers start pointing when it becomes a Political/Campaign Issue. The Democates would be doing the same dam thing... They are just better at not getting caught...

 

I agree with doing what is required to insure/increase our nations safety... And if that means listening to Suspected Terrorist phone conversations/ monitoring e-mail (not like bill cant read them all anyways) then so be it... Longer waits for security screenings at Airports About Dam Time...

 

Higher gas prices... ya right dam Profit seeking pigs, btw whats Texaco's stock at?

 

If you catch them, let me know I will be happy to take care of them FREE of charge...

[Extreme90path]

Personally, I'd like to see some public discourse and decisions about this very topic: Which is more important, perception of security, or constitutional rights?

 

I just want to throw in my 2cents:

 

Fist, security is a major issue, and I do not want to lessen the value of that. It is the job of the goverment to protect our rights as people. That is why we pay a crap load of taxes so that we can enjoy the peace of mind that come with having, police, fire departments, Army and Goverment. All protect us. But the second that those are abused (ie. National Security Act).

 

Un warrented wire taps (in my opinion) are a direct assult on our constitutional rights. (ie. 1st and 4th amendments:

 

1st: Congress shal make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or probibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, and to petition the Goverment for a redress of grievances

 

4th : the right of the people to be secure in their persons, house, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated , and no warrants shall issue but upon PROBABLE cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describng the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

We as a nation have the right to privicy, intill an idividual violates some one elses rights. Witch in turn puts that persons rights to question, because of implicated violation. (ie. Probable Cause). So in otherwords, I do not agree with the goverment having "free Reign" over wire tapping (listening to conversations w/ out permission) it is a direct enfringement upon our rights!

 

sorry for going off... -thnkboutit-

[vengeful]

Playing Devils Advocate to spark further discussion...

 

But then that begs the question, should our government extend those same rights to citizens of other countries? All of the unwarranted wire-taps are taking place on international phone calls - at least that's what we're lead to believe. If, as a Citizen of the USA, we have these rights under the Consitution, do non-citizens NOT have these rights/protections under OUR Constitution? If that is the case, it would be perfectly legal for our government to listen in on the international side of the phone call, but NOT on the side of the American Citizen. Which complicates things a lot...

[vengeful]

sorry for going off... -thnkboutit-

Nah, you're fine.

[Extreme90path]

This is true, it does complicate things... but goverment is never a simple a to b answer... haha.

 

But to give you an answer. It may seem unfair to other people, but I do believe we should extend that courtesy to "allied" countries, but not w/ treaty based countries (ie. Korea, China). We have to defend ourselves from outsiders, and we most certainly shouldent hold back on wire taps w/ countries we are at war with. But then again... it's just what I think, so if I offend in any way, I aplogize.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Extreme90path

[vengeful]

But then again... it's just what I think, so if I offend in any way, I aplogize.

While I do agree with most of what you said, I'm not going to pick it apart....I'm going to focus on your last bit there.

 

That is a huge problem with American Society today. We are overly obsessed with being P.C. and not offending others, that we have become overly sensitive on Social, Political, Economic, Religious, or Military-related issues. (That was a little acronym my World History teacher in High-school taught us to help us remember the major categories of issues that spark heated discussions...clever, eh? Really worked on high-school boys!) We have become a Nation of thin-skinned sissies, and we live in an era where words hurt. Words don't hurt. Sticks, Stones, Bullets and Bombs hurt. Words are just words. Yes, your FEELINGS can be hurt, but look at your Fathers, or Grandfathers. Words didn't hurt then, why do they now? What happened that changed a word from a word to a weapon. An apple is always an apple, no matter how it's used, correct? Then isn't a word just a word?

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that America as a whole needs to grow some skin and not be so overly-sensitive. Yes, there are certain words, contexts and phrases that have always been, and will always be, offensive. These are the words, contexts and phrases that have NEVER been socially acceptable and have always been received with scorn. You all know the ones I'm talking about...they're the ones that got you punched in the nose.

 

And since when does the phrase "No Offense" or "With all due respect" automatically free the speaker of any and all consequences of his/her speech? That really squishes my tomatoes!

[Extreme90path]

That is a huge problem with American Society today. We are overly obsessed with being P.C. and not offending others, that we have become overly sensitive on Social, Political, Economic, Religious, or Military-related issues. (That was a little acronym my World History teacher in High-school taught us to help us remember the major categories of issues that spark heated discussions...clever, eh? Really worked on high-school boys!) We have become a Nation of thin-skinned sissies, and we live in an era where words hurt. Words don't hurt. Sticks, Stones, Bullets and Bombs hurt. Words are just words. Yes, your FEELINGS can be hurt, but look at your Fathers, or Grandfathers. Words didn't hurt then, why do they now? What happened that changed a word from a word to a weapon. An apple is always an apple, no matter how it's used, correct? Then isn't a word just a word?

 

Venge you are absolutly right. I just said that to keep people from burning up. that's all. I am not going to get upset over someone elses opinion. I may think it is BS... but that's the beauty of it all. We are allowed to think our own thoughts, and express them. Just as long as there is no physical damage to another person, or any infrigment upon their rights as a person.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Extreme90path

[vengeful]

Exactly! I say what I think, when I want, how I want (trying to avoid being overly profane and perverted, but every now and then slipping in a little inuendo).

 

How do people expect to have fun, when they are too afraid to even speak their minds?

[Precise1]

The illusion of safety is all it is... Americans seem to need and want that, the illusion. I agree with the statements that the average citizen is a wimp.

I for one, have no interest giving up my rights/privacy so some pathetic individuals can continue being mindlessly happy. Wake up, smell the coffee and look around. Be responsible for yourself, the government can't and won't do it for you past a certain point. The government needs to watch the borders, monitor imports, maintain an army and set policy, etc, not spy on the citizens. If you want to live in a 1984ish world, please, DON'T drag me into it !!

The government states that they can PROVE this is fully legal, but in order to do so they would have to reveal state secrets.

I am sooooo sick of hearing this !!! Everything questionable for many years has just been covered up by the blanket statement "state secret, you must remain ignorant, it's for your own good" crap and it makes me ill. Blatant BS and abuse of power !

GB is an embarassment to the country as is much of his administrations policies, but so many people are so fukking ignorant, they can't even comprehend it. We are one country in a large WORLD... Not everything we say/do/want is right in the big picture. Ever consider WHY there 'terrorists' or 'insurgents' would want to attack us ? They didn't just wake up under a camel one day, find a Time magazine and decide to devote their lives to hating us... That said, yes, I'm sure they have their share of ignorant people also. This is the real issue, don't ruin it for the rest of us by taking our sealed bottle of Avian when we get in a plane !!

 

B

 

 

(Sorry, I had to fix your little quote mistake...it was driving me crazy...-V)

Edited August 17, 2006 by vengeful

[The Drift]

While I do agree with most of what you said, I'm not going to pick it apart....I'm going to focus on your last bit there.

 

That is a huge problem with American Society today. We are overly obsessed with being P.C. and not offending others, that we have become overly sensitive on Social, Political, Economic, Religious, or Military-related issues. (That was a little acronym my World History teacher in High-school taught us to help us remember the major categories of issues that spark heated discussions...clever, eh? Really worked on high-school boys!) We have become a Nation of thin-skinned sissies, and we live in an era where words hurt. Words don't hurt. Sticks, Stones, Bullets and Bombs hurt. Words are just words. Yes, your FEELINGS can be hurt, but look at your Fathers, or Grandfathers. Words didn't hurt then, why do they now? What happened that changed a word from a word to a weapon. An apple is always an apple, no matter how it's used, correct? Then isn't a word just a word?

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that America as a whole needs to grow some skin and not be so overly-sensitive. Yes, there are certain words, contexts and phrases that have always been, and will always be, offensive. These are the words, contexts and phrases that have NEVER been socially acceptable and have always been received with scorn. You all know the ones I'm talking about...they're the ones that got you punched in the nose.

 

And since when does the phrase "No Offense" or "With all due respect" automatically free the speaker of any and all consequences of his/her speech? That really squishes my tomatoes!

Awesome post.

 

 

Next time I'm in Phoenix for work we'll have to go for beers.

[vengeful]

B, I believe the term you are looking for is...Mother Government.

 

The current U.S. Government is being greatly overprotective of its ASSETS not its PEOPLE. Why did we go to Iraq? To protect Oil Interests - that much is totally obvious. They are over-zealous, over-protective, and under-productive. Instead of trying to fix the rest of the worlds problems, they need to turn around and focus on OUR problems. The ever-increasing drug problem, the illegal alien problem, the totally ignored and screwed over Katrina victims...Instead of helping some people 7,000 miles away that DON'T WANT OUR HELP, help YOUR OWN PEOPLE! It's so DUMB that there are still hundreds of thousands of people who were displaced by Katrina who still haven't even received insurance money to rebuild, or who wont be receiving insurance money.

 

And that brings me to another group of people that are conniving, racketeering, asshats. Insurace companies. I am of the opinion that ANY homeowners insurance policy MUST include provisions for ANY NATURAL DISASTER. ANY NATURAL DISASTER. This includes WATER INCURSION - no matter the source, rain, flood, a broken dam, hurricane, whatever. Every single home damaged by Katrina suffered damage from water incursion, and nearly EVERY SINGLE policy has provisions that PREVENT payouts in the event of water incursion. In low-lying coastal areas, an insurance policy like that is USELESS. A complete scam. The people would have been better off paying the money into a savings account. (Ok...I'm getting off-topic here....but the total inaction by the government (with the exception of some crappy FEMA trailers), the recent decision by a Federal Judge that insurance companies DO NOT HAVE TO PAY for water damage caused by Katrina, and the whole situation revolving around that just pisses me off....you bet your ass if it was a wealthy, predominantly white, area that suffered the most damage, it would be 100% cleaned up by now.)

[vengeful]

Awesome post.

 

 

Next time I'm in Phoenix for work we'll have to go for beers.

Definitely. Lemme know.

[Extreme90path]

[94extreme]

hey dan, no offence but i think you may be gay! and a damn democrat. on that note i think i'll crash as this room is spinning way much.. :D

[94extreme]

B, I believe the term you are looking for is...Mother Government.

 

The current U.S. Government is being greatly overprotective of its ASSETS not its PEOPLE. Why did we go to Iraq? To protect Oil Interests - that much is totally obvious. They are over-zealous, over-protective, and under-productive. Instead of trying to fix the rest of the worlds problems, they need to turn around and focus on OUR problems. The ever-increasing drug problem, the illegal alien problem, the totally ignored and screwed over Katrina victims...Instead of helping some people 7,000 miles away that DON'T WANT OUR HELP, help YOUR OWN PEOPLE! It's so DUMB that there are still hundreds of thousands of people who were displaced by Katrina who still haven't even received insurance money to rebuild, or who wont be receiving insurance money.

 

And that brings me to another group of people that are conniving, racketeering, asshats. Insurace companies. I am of the opinion that ANY homeowners insurance policy MUST include provisions for ANY NATURAL DISASTER. ANY NATURAL DISASTER. This includes WATER INCURSION - no matter the source, rain, flood, a broken dam, hurricane, whatever. Every single home damaged by Katrina suffered damage from water incursion, and nearly EVERY SINGLE policy has provisions that PREVENT payouts in the event of water incursion. In low-lying coastal areas, an insurance policy like that is USELESS. A complete scam. The people would have been better off paying the money into a savings account. (Ok...I'm getting off-topic here....but the total inaction by the government (with the exception of some crappy FEMA trailers), the recent decision by a Federal Judge that insurance companies DO NOT HAVE TO PAY for water damage caused by Katrina, and the whole situation revolving around that just pisses me off....you bet your ass if it was a wealthy, predominantly white, area that suffered the most damage, it would be 100% cleaned up by now.)

for water incursion you get the fed flood insurance. i am ok with that.. i live up high.

 

otherwise insurance comps are scammers extraordinare..