Front end kit - swap 93+ tie rods, centerlink, ball joints, sway bar links onto a '91?

[ryan6351]

Finally tackled the timing belt this weekend - followed all the instructions/forum threads to a tee, all Nissan OEM parts… and now the car won’t start turns over fine, no rubbing or banging, no coolant leaks - just no starting. I must have bungled something up with the wiring while working on it, seems like there is no spark. 

[Slartibartfast]

Well that sucks! Hopefully something simple. Re-check anything electrical that you had apart, hopefully it's just a loose connector somewhere.

[gamellott]

When I clocked the harmonic balancer pulley wrong, I had something a little similar, only mine would start. I spent hours scratching my head about it, but I finally figured it out. It's usually the simplest things that get overlooked.

[ryan6351]

Yeah, gonna start with cleaning and reconnecting all the electrical stuff I touched. A few connectors had very old dielectric (I assume…) that might be causing issues. It cranks no problem, but doesn’t even seem to try actually starting. 
 

I am 99% sure I got the balance on right - marked it and the pulley assembly before removal - but could be. I reeeeeally don’t want to have to take it apart again. 🫠

[gamellott]

The outer pulley is just an indication. If you assembled and clocked everything correctly, it should run. If the pulley is not clocked correctly, If and When you set the timing, you'll start scratching your head as I did. My bet is on the connectors as you mention. Most of them should be undisturbed to do the Timing Belt. If you did something else, that's a different story. There are quite a few ground connectors in vicinity of the distributor, if broken, could cause some issues and break fairly easily.

 

Start with the basics; Spark, Compression and Fuel.

[Slartibartfast]

3 hours ago, gamellott said:

Start with the basics; Spark, Compression and Fuel.

 

+1 on this. If you have all three, check timing, especially if you've had the distributor out. It's easy to install it at top dead exhaust instead of top dead compression. I've done that.

 

Might also be worth running codes. The computers in these are not very perceptive, but you should get a code if it hasn't heard from the dizzy in however many seconds of cranking, or if there's no ignition pulse to the coil. Either way, that would give you a road map for what to check next.

[ryan6351]

@Slartibartfast I keep forgetting to check codes - will be the next thing I do. It's getting fuel for sure, and I'm 99% sure compression (I pulled a spark plug for timing belt job but replaced it and torqued correctly - otherwise nothing compression-related was removed or changed), so spark seems to be the culprit. Hopefully codes will give an indication, and if not I'll start checking grounds. I did remove the dizzy cap at one point but not the whole assembly, so maybe I damaged or messed with the crank angle sensor? Who knows. I've been getting a lot of bike commuting done lately so silver linings, ha. 

 

@gamellott that makes sense re: pulley! As for connectors I sort of preemptively disconnected a lot of the front harness (throttle position sensor/dizzy/crank sensor/etc) when doing the belt in an attempt to keep as much out of my way as possible. 

[ryan6351]

Computer reads 55 - No Malfunction. Going to have to do it the hard way, checking each connection. 

[ryan6351]

Checked every wire I touched (and those I didn't) in the engine bay, as well as the ignition coil and spark plug cables - everything looks normal, connections are solid, no corrosion. I'm really at a loss here... it turns over super strong, fuel pressure is good, and just nothing. 

When I did the timing belt replacement I was really careful not to let the camshafts or crankshaft turn at all between taking the old belt off and putting the new one one. I double-checked my tooth counts, got the tension set appropriately, and closed everything back up with proper torque on every bolt and proper tension on every accessory belt. I truly can't imagine what it could be.

 

Maybe the dizzy cap and/or rotor? They're original, but it was working fine before. Could I have somehow messed up spark plug #1 by removing and reinstalling it, causing that cylinder to lose compression or spark? Would the engine not even attempt to fire (no sputtering at all) if only one cylinder lost spark/compression?  

Edited April 26 by ryan6351

[Slartibartfast]

Sorry to hear the computer is clueless as usual. Did you check after a failed start? I think it's supposed to hold onto codes for a certain number of starts, but I don't remember that for sure.

 

An ignition issue on one cylinder shouldn't impact the other five.

 

If you didn't pull the dizzy, and the tooth count between cams and cam/crank is correct (and it was when you started), then it shouldn't be timing. If you messed with the plug wires, confirm that they all went back where they're supposed to. I wouldn't expect the cap/rotor to suddenly and completely die, but given you had the cap off, I would pull it and just make sure it's not wet inside and the rotor is present (you didn't remove it to clean it and forget to put it back) and correct (mounting bolt hasn't fallen out or something).

 

Other than that, we're back to checking for spark and fuel. If you're sure it's getting fuel past the injectors, pull a plug wire, crank it, confirm that you have spark. If you don't, check at the coil wire to see if the cap/rotor are the problem.

 

If you have spark, but aren't sure fuel's getting past the injectors, spray some carb cleaner or starting fluid into the intake. If it runs when you spray fuel at it, then you know it's a fuel issue.

[ryan6351]

Edited to answer your question - yes, I checked codes multiple times. Before doing anything to see if they were stored from my last attempt to start; after cranking for a good 30 seconds, multiple times; and even during cranking. Always showed a 55. 

 

To test for spark, when I pull the plug and crank the engine, do I just ground the plug to somewhere else on the block and visually look for the spark? Never done that before. Same question re: testing the coil wire for spark.

 

Assuming I do see spark, I'll move on to the carb cleaner spray test. My first '91 with 300k+ miles had gotten to a point where I had to start it with carb cleaner every time - I don't miss those days....

 

Thanks again y'all.

Edited April 28 by ryan6351

[Slartibartfast]

Good work. Annoying that it doesn't know what's up, but that's OBD1 for you!

 

You can test it with a plug, yes. I use an old spark plug for this so I don't have to take the existing plug out. I like doing it that way because it makes it harder to zap myself. When I don't have a plug handy, I stick a screwdriver where the plug would go, hold it by the plastic handle, and hold the shank maybe a quarter inch from the manifold while cranking. Otherwise you can just hold the wire (by the insulation!) so there's maybe a quarter inch spark gap between the intake and the end of the wire. This is easier with the coil wire.

 

Speaking of zapping yourself, I haven't heard of anyone being properly injured by it, but that doesn't mean it's a good time. The ignition system should be putting out something like 28,000V. Be careful where you put your fingers, and don't hold onto a damaged wire.

 

You could also start with the carb cleaner if you're more comfortable with that. If it kicks on spray, then you know it has spark, and you can skip messing with the plug wires.

[ryan6351]

That's all super helpful! I went ahead and grabbed a cheapo inline spark tester at AutoZone - easier to do and was only eight bucks (needed to snag carb cleaner anyway). Will report back soon! If it isn't a spark issue, I may throw in the towel and take it to a "real" mechanic. Getting onto week three with no car, and it's getting to be annoying. 

[ryan6351]

Another update - getting spark at the plugs, and yet it wouldn't start at all even with a healthy dose of carb cleaner in the throttle body. I worry that somehow the timing is 180 degrees off and it's sparking on the exhaust? I don't know. At my wits end so I'm gonna call a pro to help. 

[gamellott]

I don't think carb cleaner is a good substitute for starter fluid. Any time I had sent that stuff down the throat of a carb, it would bog and kill the engine. But then, I have never really messed with that stuff on car engines. I was always warned from using starting fluid in a 2-stroke engine though.

 

All of that being said, I would check to make sure that the timing of the valves is correct. I think the best way to do that is to check the position of the cam gears when the crank is at TDC. If you're confident of the timing mark on your pulley, you can set the crank to TDC and go from there. The markers for the cams should be on position or 180 out depending on the compression or exhaust cycle. If you're way off, I would suspect that the engine would sound weird when trying to crank on it, but I also suspect there might be some degree of coughing from the engine since you're probably still getting some fuel in the cylinder and spark even if the timing is SNAFU'd. 

 

Good luck!! I hope it gets figured out!!

[Slartibartfast]

Spark but no fire on carb cleaner suggests it's either massively flooded, or the timing is way off. Do you have a timing light? The ignition timing should not have changed if you haven't moved the distributor, assuming everything's as it should be behind the timing cover. I'm also assuming the last guy had it set up properly, given it ran before you opened it up.

 

Confirm that you've got 40 teeth between cam dimples, 43 cam to crank. If you had the sprockets off to do the cam seals, confirm that you reinstalled the sprockets on the correct sides. Left and right are marked from the driver's perspective, not the mechanic's.

 

13 hours ago, gamellott said:

I don't think carb cleaner is a good substitute for starter fluid. Any time I had sent that stuff down the throat of a carb, it would bog and kill the engine.

 

I've never had an issue with it, though I have heard of people washing the oil off the cylinder walls by using too much. Some starting fluid has oil in it, that's probably better for extended use if you have to run it on spray. I mostly just use it to make sure a small engine's worth buying a carburetor for.

 

I don't know if it's the ether or the stuff they add to stop people from huffing it, but starting fluid gives me a headache real quick. Not that carb cleaner is healthy, but it doesn't hit me like that. I see guys on Youtube using brake cleaner, and they seem to get away with it, but I don't want to know what's coming out the tailpipe when that stuff burns!

[ryan6351]

I've got a mobile mechanic coming thursday - I don't have a timing light, but described the issue to them in detail and hopefully they'll be able to figure it out quickly. I honestly don't know if the dimples on the cam gears lined up when I set cylinder 1 to TDC when replacing the belt - there was enough surface discoloration on the gears that I couldn't really see them well, and I just don't remember exactly what was going on. Didn't do seals, either (I know.... I should have), so I never removed the cam gears. The marks on the old belt had also totally worn off, so I just counted teeth to confirm things were correct before removing and replacing (and the engine had run more or less perfectly for the 1,500 miles I've put on it in the last 6 months). 

 

Confirmed the belt tooth count, and as far as I can tell no weird sounds when cranking, though I honestly am pretty inexperienced so it could be something sounds subtly off and I just don't know it! Flooding is possible - I may pull a plug or two and scope out the cylinders to see. I didn't spray much of the carb cleaner, but I've cranked it a lot so it could be gas flooded. It's just really bewildering that in probably 5 minutes of cranking (spread out over 15 or so attempts), there wasn't a single cough/sputter/attempt to start running. The only thing I can think of is that somehow the cams slipped out of position while changing the belt? I only had it off for a few minutes between removing the old one and maneuvering the new one on. But again, if I was banging valves on pistons I don't think that would be a subtle sound. We'll see what I find out later this week.

[Slartibartfast]

Yeah, it seems like it would've at least tried to sputter a little at some point if it was flooding.

 

The marks on the timing cover are approximate. The tooth count between the dimples on the sprockets is the important thing.

 

Hopefully nothing got hurt, and the mobile mechanic figures it out!

[gamellott]

Maybe it was the brand I bought, or maybe it was Maybelline. Every single belt I have seen in the last 10 years (Not Many) had a hash mark on the outside of the belt indicating where to set the timing mark/dimple. I have never counted the teeth. Maybe I'm special...

[ryan6351]

My belt does too! It's an OEM Nissan job (don't ask how much I paid for that, tensioner and water pump.....). The old one must have too, but the marks were worn off by.... 34 years of existence, I guess! It's also possible there was a water pump or timing belt job I didn't know about in the car's history, and they used a cheapo aftermarket item. IDK. 

 

Mechanic is here now - confirmed it's getting fuel, compression, and spark, and yet still won't start. He said the timing chart on his sensor computer thing looks good, and it's sparking at TDC, but it could 180 degrees out of time somehow. I worry that's the answer... I genuinely don't know if I had it on TDC compression stroke or exhaust. 

 

As an interesting aside, he was thrown for a loop by his sensors showing the fuel injectors pulsing twice each cycle in rapid succession. I know our ECUs are programmed to run rich on startup - apparently it does that by opening the injector twice, not just for longer. 

[ryan6351]

Okay party people - the content you've been waiting for: an answer!!

 

I got the timing wrong. 

 

I messed up the tooth counts (I must've gone from the marks on the cover, not the actual dimples on the cam gears), and ended up with the left cam two teeth advanced and the right cam 6 or so teeth behind. I really don't know how - they must've moved from spring tension while I was getting the old belt off, as I was probably at TDC on the exhaust stroke. Anyway, it's sparking and fueling at the right times relative to the crank/piston positions, but the valves aren't opening/closing at the right times. 

 

So this weekend I get to redo it, aligning the cams properly. At least I don't have to deal with the water pump again? 

[ryan6351]

Another aside - this tech was great, AND he has his own ‘94 Hardbody with the 2.4L. He was like “wow I don’t envy you having to fit your hands in this engine bay” haha 

[gamellott]

Good!! Glad you got it figured it out!!

 

I don't think the timing belts have ever had a lifespan of over 100K Miles or 10 years, whichever comes first. I seem to recall the first time I ever heard of one, they were suggested to be replaced after 60K. More than likely, this is not the first time this has had a timing belt replaced on it. But definitely good for you to replace it if you don't know the last time it was done!!

 

I did the belt on mine for the first time 10 years ago. It had 285K on it then, and I replaced it about 2 years ago after I went through the top end. I think I might have thought to re-use the belt, but, as you mention, the hash marks were worn off.

 

I think the marks on the timing covers are just a ballpark location. The hash marks are probably more of a hard and fast position that you line the dimples on. I haven't done a ton of these, but that's how I have always done it. I'll probably forget that tidbit of information on the next one I do....

[ryan6351]

Thanks.. better to spend $350 on a mechanic to tell me "You did it wrong" than to bend some valves and have to rebuild the heads!

 

It's really hard to say - service records were incomplete, and there was no timing belt sticker in the engine bay. All parts were OEM Nissan inside, and it only just now hit 59k miles. I agree that a belt lasting 34 years seems unlikely but it was possible enough that I didn't want to chance it, especially with a lot of the other OEM parts starting to fail during my 6 months of ownership. 

 

Yes, tomorrow I will be dutifully and carefully lining up the dimples and counting teeth correctly. Hopefully it goes a lot faster second time around, especially since I won't have to scrape a 34-year-old water pump gasket off! 

 

Then, next project will be finally addressing this thread (ha!) - swapping out front end ball joints, center link, and brake pads and rotors to chase down my weird screech.

[ryan6351]

SUCCESS! 
 

https://imgur.com/a/qWyHVX8