Shaking in Drive at Idle

[CamperDan]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:36 PM, Slartibartfast said:

I played it dangerous and wiped the actual elements. They're delicate, but they're not made of cotton candy, and they're pretty easy to get to on mine. I think you're supposed to just blast them with MAF cleaner, but either I didn't have the right stuff handy or the gunk wasn't budging, so I very gently wiped off the rest. Anything that insulates them will cause the sensor to under-report. Given the limited access on yours, I'd be tempted to see what the ultrasonic cleaner would do about it.

 

Too bad about the smoke machine. Maybe try a lower oil level? I used a proper shop one once, and was not a fan of the smell, but it did work pretty well. Does seem a bit odd to be fogging the engine with glycerine, but I haven't heard of it causing problems.

I haven't cleaned my maf sensor yet, but I was looking at some live data on my scan tool and at first I was seeing a little over 3.5 g/s at idle now I'm seeing 2.97 g/s consistently. So I think we might be on the right path regarding your under-reporting hypothesis. My fuel trims are extremely high as well, I'm currently averaging about 200 miles per tank prior to this issue I was averaging about 280 miles per tank. I ordered a new maf sensor, but before I swap it out I'm gonna try cleaning the OEM one and report back with my findings.

 

Chris.

[Slartibartfast]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I saw in an SMA video a while back that g/s at warm idle is usually close to the engine displacement, which agrees with your old 3.5g/s reading. A messed-up sensor would explain the trims and the g/s being off. Good luck cleaning the old MAF--and good thinking having a new one on hand.

[cham]

22 hours ago, CamperDan said:

I ordered a new maf sensor, but before I swap it out I'm gonna try cleaning the OEM one and report back with my findings.

I'll be patiently waiting for the results, thanks for keeping us updated!  Just got a new smoke machine so in a couple days I'm going to be very thorough finding any intake or exhaust leaks.  Thought about testing EVAP leaks as well but I've got to get a handle on purge solenoids and lines first as I'm sure some areas are supposed to purge smoke.  Also because my tailpipe has fallen apart (can't get a great seal when smoking) it's almost better to find leaks by looking for liquid condensation forming after you start up a cold engine. 

 

 

[CamperDan]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:44 AM, Slartibartfast said:

Sounds like you're on the right track. I saw in an SMA video a while back that g/s at warm idle is usually close to the engine displacement, which agrees with your old 3.5g/s reading. A messed-up sensor would explain the trims and the g/s being off. Good luck cleaning the old MAF--and good thinking having a new one on hand.

I have learned a great deal from watching Eric O of SMA, kind of funny I'm currently watching a video of him troubleshooting an ABS issue and making an educated guess. If you ask me it's right in sync with the issue at hand that we are having with our R50's. So Unfortunately I was not able to clean my OEM MAF Sensor because I was not able to locate any MAF cleaner at the local parts stores(they were all sold out for some strange reason). I guess you can say that my OEM MAF Sensor was no longer serviceable due to a rusty and stripped-out screw, so I would not have been able to remove it from the housing to thoroughly clean it anyway so I just replaced it with the new sensor and housing I ordered. From what I could see through the mesh on the front of the old MAF housing the filament was indeed dirty, so long story short it seems to have fixed my stumbling idle issues, and my R50 idles smooth again. The replacement MAF now reads closer to 3.5 g/s once the engine has reached operating temp vs the previous 2.97 g/s with the old MAF Sensor, I would also like to mention that I now have better acceleration too, and the fuel trims are slowly working their way back down. So If you tried cleaning your MAF and that didn't correct the issue just replace it. Here's a picture of my OEM MAF Sensor and housing. Respectfully your R50 rough idle and poor fuel economy "Guinea Pig"

 

https://imgur.com/a/O5RxWIk

 

Chris.

Edited February 5 by CamperDan

[CamperDan]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:40 AM, cham said:

I'll be patiently waiting for the results, thanks for keeping us updated!  Just got a new smoke machine so in a couple days I'm going to be very thorough finding any intake or exhaust leaks.  Thought about testing EVAP leaks as well but I've got to get a handle on purge solenoids and lines first as I'm sure some areas are supposed to purge smoke.  Also because my tailpipe has fallen apart (can't get a great seal when smoking) it's almost better to find leaks by looking for liquid condensation forming after you start up a cold engine. 

 

 

 

On 1/31/2024 at 12:25 PM, cham said:

Thanks guys for the help I'm making some headway.  So I've discovered some things that can help me understand what's going on.  Firstly I tried smoking the exhaust and intake again last night to no avail.  The machine like it always does starts spitting mineral oil again so I stopped after a few minutes.  I definitely was getting a good amount of smoke into the intake and saw no leaks.  I'm now in contact with the company and I believe they will be sending me a new one.  The problem is we have that butterfly valve within the plenum which is closed with the engine off; can I manually prop it open by using that linkage on the vacuum actuator so the smoke can get to that lower plenum intake?

 

When starting my engine in the cold I said what the hell and got under to the vehicle to find condensation pooling at the lower 3rd bolt/nut on the exhaust that mounts to the back of the pre-cats.  Saw condensation vapor coming through it too.  Almost looked like when the exhaust warmed up the seam closed up and no more condensation vapor.  I'm going to get someone to accelerate the engine in park while I'm under there to see if I can see a visible stream.  The leak would be just before the downstream O2 sensor and right after the pre-cat, and its exactly the same on both banks.  I'm assuming this would definitely contribute to my P0430/P0420 codes.  But I would think it would not hurt my gas milage.  

 

Now this isn't a definite answer as I'm now curious if there are any more leaks I can't see not to mention its quite interesting both banks are leaking in the exact same place.  Could my cats be clogging up and the buildup of pressure forced an opening in the same place on either bank?  Fixing the leak could then cause the pressure buildup to get worse.  Is the only real way to check if you have a clogged cat by removing them and looking inside?

 

Lastly I recently discovered from another thread on here that through Mode 6 we should be able to read misfire count on a particular cylinder which will definitely help.  Bluedriver has a Mode 6 reader so hopefully I'll be able to get some data on whether I am actually misfiring or not.  Read online its rare but sometimes misfiring with no CEL codes are possible if its intermittent.  Since I have new spark plugs I would imagine if I find any misfires its either a failing coil, dielectric grease causing issue, clogged injector or harness related.  

I too have just noticed some condensation dripping from my muffler and the union where the muffler bolts up to the tail pipe last night while diagnosing our rough idle issue. Check out theses picks I took. I also Just replaced my Bank 2 Downstream oxygen sensor due to a heater code, I was also getting a pending lean code P0174 fuel sys-Lean-B2 as well after replacing my downstream sensor but strangely not before that. So I don't know if it might be related to this issue some how.

 

https://imgur.com/a/qv0FANl

 

Chris.

Edited February 4 by CamperDan

[cham]

I have learned a great deal from watching Eric O of SMA, kind of funny I'm currently watching a video of him troubleshooting an ABS issue and making an educated guess. If you ask me it's right in sync with the issue at hand that we are having with our R50's. So Unfortunately I was not able to clean my OEM MAF Sensor because I was not able to locate any MAF cleaner at the local parts stores(they were all sold out for some strange reason). I guess you can say that my OEM MAF Sensor was no longer serviceable due to a rusty and stripped-out screw, so I would not have been able to remove it from the housing to thoroughly clean it anyway so I just replaced it with the new sensor and housing I ordered. From what I could see through the mesh on the front of the old MAF housing the filament was indeed dirty, so long story short it seems to have fixed my stumbling idle issues, and my R50 idles smooth again. The replacement MAF now reads closer to 3.5 g/s once the engine has reached operating temp vs the previous 2.97 g/s with the old MAF Sensor, I would also like to mention that I now have better acceleration too, and the fuel trims are slowly working their way back down. So If you tried cleaning your MAF and that didn't correct the issue just replace it. Here's a picture of my OEM MAF Sensor and housing. Respectfully your R50 rough idle and poor fuel economy "Guinea Pig"
 
https://imgur.com/a/O5RxWIk
 
Chris.

Thanks for the update CamperDan, let us know if the problem comes back or not. I’ve been monitoring my g/s and it’s at about 3.6-3.7 at idle warmed up. Sounds like it’s good and I have been cleaning it over the years. Correct me if I’m wrong though, you replaced your idle air control valve at one point correct? Do you remember it fixing any vibration or stumbling back then?

Also did you use oem factory MAF sensor?


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[CamperDan]

44 minutes ago, cham said:

Thanks for the update CamperDan, let us know if the problem comes back or not. I’ve been monitoring my g/s and it’s at about 3.6-3.7 at idle warmed up. Sounds like it’s good and I have been cleaning it over the years. Correct me if I’m wrong though, you replaced your idle air control valve at one point correct? Do you remember it fixing any vibration or stumbling back then?

Also did you use oem factory MAF sensor?


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Yes I replaced my IAC Valve with an OEM HITACHI one last March. No idle issues or poor fuel economy prior to that an even after. I didn't start experiencing these issues until around July last year. The only reason I replaced my IAC Valve was because it looked like coolant was starting to seep from the gasket between the throttle body and IAC Valve. Sadly I did not go with the OEM HITACHI MAF because of the cost, it's $171.00 plus taxes and shipping on Rockauto or $190.00 on Amazon. This might change later, as I was trying to make my work or (hypothesis) as cheap as possible.

 

Chris.

[cham]

I gotcha. I think I might replace the IACV for the hell of it next time I go in to replace my valve covers. See if I get any results. Just to be clear, you were having a full vehicle vibration at stoplights in gear once the engine is warm? It would go away in park and neutral?

What is this ABS issue you were talking about? Were you saying that might have something to do with the RPM sag and vibration in gear?


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[CamperDan]

2 hours ago, cham said:

I gotcha. I think I might replace the IACV for the hell of it next time I go in to replace my valve covers. See if I get any results. Just to be clear, you were having a full vehicle vibration at stoplights in gear once the engine is warm? It would go away in park and neutral?

What is this ABS issue you were talking about? Were you saying that might have something to do with the RPM sag and vibration in gear?


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Lol no I was talking about a YouTube video I was watching at the time I made that post, it was about a mechanic making an educated guess and using his tribal knowledge to fix an abs issue on a Buick and it actually working out. Just like I did when trying to figure out my stumbling idle issue. (Completely unrelated to what we have been discussing though) Sorry for the confusion. More over my R50 is a 5-Speed manual 4X4 and I would feel the vibration when stopped at a red light, this primarily happened when stopped at a red light with the transmission in neutral at operation temp, not a fan of staying in gear with with my foot on the clutch at a red light. In recent days my rpm's would dive before I could even bring the vehicle to a full stop.

 

Chris.

Edited February 6 by CamperDan

[cham]

Lol no I was talking about a YouTube video I was watching at the time I made that post, it was about a mechanic making an educated guess and using his tribal knowledge to fix an abs issue on a Buick and it actually working out. Just like I did when trying to figure out my stumbling idle issue. (Completely unrelated to what we have been discussing though) Sorry for the confusion. More over my R50 is a 5-Speed manual 4X4 and I would feel the vibration when stopped at a red light, this primarily happened when stopped at a red light with the transmission in neutral at operation temp, not a fan of staying in gear with with my foot on the clutch at a red light. In recent days my rpm's would dive before I could even bring the vehicle to a full stop.
 
Chris.

Ah I see thanks Chris! The vibration basically goes away for me if I put my transmission in neutral or park at a stoplight. If you stayed in gear in 1st while at a stoplight would it vibrate and try to stall as well?

Also did you have to reprogram or perform any relearn procedures when replacing the MAF sensor?


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[CamperDan]

On 2/6/2024 at 7:36 AM, cham said:

Ah I see thanks Chris! The vibration basically goes away for me if I put my transmission in neutral or park at a stoplight. If you stayed in gear in 1st while at a stoplight would it vibrate and try to stall as well?

Also did you have to reprogram or perform any relearn procedures when replacing the MAF sensor?


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I wouldn't be able to provide you with feedback regarding your question about the vibration while in gear at a stop, as I don't ever stay in gear while at a stop. No relearn was done after replacing my MAF Sensor either.

 

Chris.  

[cham]

Anybody running with gutted cats without adverse effects?  I'm starting to think my catalytic converters are actually failing or clogging.  Besides my P0430/P0420 codes I'm still getting, according to my scanner I'm only getting about 7 misfires averages total in the past 10 drive cycles.  I can't imagine that would be the source of my issues like vibration in gear at idle and lack of power.  My engine consumes so much oil I do not believe replacing with new converters would solve the issue for long.  Not to mention so many things cause converters to fail and apparently it can be quick.  I do not have emissions testing where I live.  I'm sure it will make getting rid of the vehicle much more difficult when it comes time.  Anybody been in my situation before, getting at those pre-cats is difficult and to have new ones fail soon after installing would suck.  I guess if I were to replace I'd go with the Magnaflow "OEM" line.  Anyone gone with cheaper brands with luck?