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Everything posted by cham

  1. I can certainly understand the thinking behind increased tolerances and its ability to fill that clearance. I guess because of the greater film thickness and shorter temporary shear the higher weight makes sense. What you mention about synthetic oil kind of makes sense as I previously mentioned that I can trace the worsening of the gasket back to when I switched to a Valvoline Synthetic Blend 5w-30. I was always told that its kind of a myth that synthetic fluids cause leaks but I think what is really going on is they expose leaks and seals being held together by sludge. Regardless, if/when I switch to 10w-40, should I continue to use a synthetic blend or switch back to conventional would you think? Also would there be any difference in leak rate between 5w-30 and 10w-30? Because it seems that most of the leak occurs during driving when things are already hot, 10w-30 would act the same or am I missing on a molecular level?
  2. I'm a little apprehensive about changing the oil weight on an older vehicle that's worn with the factory weight all these years. I do see that the manual actually does mention 10W-40 as a possible option if the ambient temp is over 0 degF. Maybe something to try; should I be worried about causing any damage by switch weights at basically 200k? Something to note is I do smell burning oil after almost every drive, even some shorter ones. Never smell it in the cab though and I never see smoke either so I'm guessing its on its way to being a larger issue but not currently.
  3. Thanks for the info, I thought as much. Should I not expect a “low oil pressure” light anytime soon? Is that pretty much only when the gaskets totally give way and provide no resistance? Would taking off just the upper plenum give me a larger amount of room to work with in getting at that PCV valve? I am currently using high mileage oil as well. I wonder if using a gasket swelling agent (stop-oil leak) in tandem with snugging the valve cover fasteners would be a good attempt. I’ve heard though its a 50-50 chance at causing a worse leak or helping. I have also heard about those sources of oil consumption as well. The bore taper would make sense and I’ve also heard something about the cats as well. I think if I remember correctly they are too close to the manifold; don’t quote me on that. I think naturally due to the engine being new for those model years, the kinks no doubt had not been ironed out. Is that oil cooler seal just behind the steering rack above the front axle? I think I’ve heard of that one before.
  4. I'm gearing up for a long trip and have been slowly getting things in order in terms of maintenance. I made a recent post about my front drive-shaft and still have yet to get that sorted; of course I find another issue that seems to be more of a priority now. My valve covers have been leaking for quite some time but within the past year I've noticed it getting worse. I actually might be able to trace it back to when I switched from 10w-30 to a 5w-30 synthetic blend. More recently it has increased in frequency. Regardless, it's gotten to the point that I'm loosing about a quart every two weeks at best. Now this is somewhat manageable but my biggest concern is that both banks are leaking on either exhaust manifold. In a 24 hour period there isn't really much accumulation at all on the ground though when parked (few drops). I can certainly smell the burning rubber stench after most drives. This makes me think the system being pressurized when driving is what's pushing most of the oil out. So my main question is at what point does a valve cover leak of this nature become a fire hazard? Does there have to be large quantities over a very short period of time, or is any burning smell a huge concern? The shop I frequent knew about this and didn't sound too concerned over it. In addition I definitely don't see any smoke coming from the engine bay or behind me in the rear view mirror. I'm afraid that on a 1,500 mile drive though from everything getting hot, this would only be exacerbated. Is it as simple as carrying a fire extinguisher but I shouldn't have to use it, or is it more of a toss up situation? Lastly, I've looked into the fix and it seemingly is quite the endeavor. Since my pathy has the plastic valve covers, everyone on here seems to have the consensus that if you're replacing the gasket, replace the valve covers as well (as we all know their tube seals are not serviceable). There is also mention of warping at older age as another reason to replace. That also doesn't include the "while you're in there" cost as well. Sparkplugs, pcv, plethora of hoses and gaskets, knock sensor; I've heard people saying to not only replace the IACV gasket but also the IACV itself. The problem is I just don't see myself keeping this vehicle much longer and this couldn't happen at a more inconvenient time of course. My options it seems are pretty limited and I'm curious if anyone has tried those oil-stop leak snake oil products to any effect. I'm also worried my pcv valve could be stuck in an almost closed position creating this newfound loss of oil. Otherwise, any other fix besides replacing it is an exercise in futility. It's funny, I find myself dreaming about having the older pre-facelift models with the 3.3 now probably because of their better reliability. They tend to catch my eye more often on the road now as well. Let me know of your experience and if I'm overlooking any other possibilities, thanks a bunch.
  5. Makes sense, I'm just kind of struggling to find a driveline specialist near me that's going to have the equipment and know how to go that extra mile, versus some ones who's just going to slap them in. Regardless, I appreciate the info, definitely gives me peace of mind.
  6. Good deal, did those come with multiple snap rings sets if you can remember?
  7. That is invariably the problem, it seems I do not really have any options close to me as far as driveline specific shops go. I'm only finding companies online I can send the shaft off to. By specialist though do you mean any drivetrain shop, like for example will a transmission shop suffice? Also from what I've found, only part numbers 5-3218X and 25-3218X u-joints from Dana/Spicer are compatible with my 2002 front driveshaft. Both are essentially the same, just one is a red box and the other is a purple box. Both seem to only come with a single set of inner snap rings, do you have a part number for the ones you installed with your shaft by chance?
  8. Right! I'm now seeing plenty of Dana/Spicer kits coming with a multitude of color-coded snap-ring sets which I assume is to fine tune the runout, but unfortunately the only ones that work for our front driveshaft by Spicer are of the somewhat lower end series with just one set of snap-rings. Something else to note is with a little research I've found that with certain driveshaft materials like aluminum vs steel, a zinc-phosphate coating is needed on the bearing caps to protect against electrolysis. Mainly its with steel bearing caps mating to an aluminum driveshaft yoke. The problem is that some manufacturers only coat the two opposing bearing caps so there is only one correct orientation, therefor with an improper installation there would be accelerated corrosion. Anybody know if this is even a factor for our shafts, or are they all steel? They certainly look to be of some low carbon steel alloy.
  9. I'm thinking about getting some Spicer joints and getting a shop to install them just so I don't risk the chance of inducing a vibration through installation. I've seen a lot of horror stories on this forum. Would you think that a rebuttable shop, even if they aren't a driveline specialist, would take into consideration what you mention about the c-clip/snap-ring thickness when installing the new Spicer u-joints? I'm looking into the 25-3218X model as its the only one in their catalog they say is compatible with the front driveshaft. They obviously come with snap rings and I'm curious if the shop just slaps them in along with the joints, or even if they check runout at all.
  10. At this point I do believe that is the best course of action. Though, to you what constitutes enough play/slop in the slip joint that it'd be a problem? Also it's highly unlikely a balancing weight broke off the shaft correct? As far as the diff bushings, I can't imagine it'd be them as I would still be feeling the vibration, but the vibration has completely disappeared since the driveshaft removal.
  11. One side (t-case side) has pretty notchy movement. There’s no doubt the U joints need replacement I just don’t want to find out after the fact that the shaft is also damaged or what not. What line of spicer joints do you normally use, I’ve also heard of people using Neapco joints with mixed results. Seems people don’t always solve their vibration issues after replacement.
  12. Hey everyone, Just sourced a bad vibration and clicking at greater speeds. I'd been dealing with a pretty bad vibration from 45mph and up for a while now and finally decided to take the time to find it's source. I had noticed the front of the vehicle produced an audible click/pop that matched the rotation of the wheels. This happened no-matter the direction or process of turning. My first thought was front driveshaft u-joints and especially because the clicking would get quieter slightly when put in 4WD. My thinking being that the torque induced within the shaft resettled the joints (taking up slack) in some manner thus quieting the clicking just a bit. Recently I got to removing the front driveshaft and what do you know, that was the culprit. Vehicle drives like butter now without vibration. So the reasoning behind my post is simply to decide whether its worth the time to replace the U-joints or just go for an aftermarket replacement. On top of this is the factor that I will not have this vehicle for more than two years is my guess. The vehicle has nothing lifting it above stock ride height either. I'd rather steer away from junk-yard shafts as at this point the vehicles are already pretty old and no telling what a questionable car might produce. So my main curiosity surrounds the best brands of U-joints for our vehicles and which type is recommended, i.e. serviceable vs non-serviceable. How am I to know that the vibration is solely dependent on the U-joints and not also in the shaft balancing itself or possible damage? Would taking it to a shop definitively tell me the answer? My assumption is that its got to mainly be (or only be) due to the u-joints as there was an audible click coming from them. Lastly, in terms of aftermarket shafts, what should I stay away from, and what price range is adequate for my situation? Do I really need to spend $500-$600 or can I get by with a $200-$300 shaft? Let me know of your experience, and much thanks for any info!
  13. So I made a post back in early winter trying to understand what was going on with my hub assembly and why I had play, which bearings I should safely go with. I ended up replacing my wheel bearings and hub races (and also rotors and pads at that). Unfortunately since doing so I've been having to over-torque past spec the preload nut to take up excess play pretty much exclusively at 12 and 6 o'clock on both front wheels. Well its still not gone so now inevitably this begs the question is it actually my ball joints causing play and not the bearings because it only really shows up at 12 and 6 o'clock on the wheels. The other issue is that even after replacing the rotors, pads, and rear brake drum assembly including the physical drums, I still get brake pulsation and shimmy. The even weirder part is it goes away and comes back. There will be drives where I get next to no pulsation and dare I say the braking feels good, and other times where I want to ditch the car off a cliff because its so annoying and jarring. Now in my eyes there are 2 possibilities: 1 - The wheel bearings or races are bad again and require excessive torque to seat them correctly. The play only shows up at 12 and 6 o'clock because the races are warped or the inner hub walls are warped and are not perfectly concentric to the axle (I know, definitely a rare case). Obviously a loose wheel bearing causes brake pulsation because of the play allowed in the wheel; 2 - Instead, the ball joint is bad causing the wheel play at 12 and 6 o'clock, meanwhile my front calipers are sticking, causing the intermittent grabbing I feel which then causes the brake pulsation. Either the caliper slide pins (which have plenty of fresh new grease) aren't doing their job, or the pistons are moving too slow and don't want to re-tract causing grabbing. I say this because a bad ball joint alone would not cause brake pulsation. Also with the pulsation randomly becoming better and randomly becoming worse, it has to be either an alignment issue (i.e. axle to hub interface) or the brake caliper assembly in some way. Currently, my best direction is to isolate the play issue and find whether the play is coming from the ball joints or bearings for both front wheels. Tie rods are perfect I do know that, and most people know the R50s only have 1 ball-joint, the lowers. Struts were replaced this past winter with new upper assembly parts so that's running perfect. Control arms are original along with the bushings so probably need replacing but doesn't seem dire. Everything I replace or take apart I always retorque to spec, that is of course besides the bearing preload (but still not at all much more than recommended spec). My main question starts with the issue of isolating the problem. In theory, if the wheel bearings are the culprit for play, wouldn't the play be removed if someone steps on the brake pedal. In other words, if I have someone step on the brake pedal and I try to induce play into the wheel, if its gone, the wheel bearings or hub/axle interface is the issue; if the play continues at 12 and 6 o'clock even when the brake pedal is applied, its more than likely the ball joint. I guess its also possible to be the control arm bushings but less likely. If someone could confirm this is a viable way of isolating the issue I would be very thankful. My thinking is that since the caliper is technically attached to the suspension control arm assembly, when applied it should hold the hub assembly still so that any post-play means it has to be suspension induced. Which you can then deduce to be ball joint because the play is at 12 and 6 o'clock. Finally I should mention the ball joints visibly look fine. Very very minor boot cracking but so minor I had to get my face right on it to even see the cracks. Let me know if I'm super far off in my logic, thanks.
  14. Glad I’m not the only one, this has been such a mess. To clarify I believe the oscillation to begin with happened because my front rotors were warped. They actually kept warping over and over again, after my shop replaced them for about the 4th time in a row for free I just about gave up as they weren’t worried about the source of the issue. After replacing the front rotors myself I noticed there was a slight pulsation still and lifted the rear axle only to find the drums were grabbing intermittently so that’s why I am in this mess. I think if the rear is grabbing enough it can throw out the front and cause the front rotors to warp. I know the shoes are on correctly as with what I mentioned earlier with the self adjuster linkage, it can only go on one way because of how it attaches to the trailing shoe. I’m fairly certain it’s the rear though because I can isolate it by pulling the handbrake while driving and get the exact same issue as when I put my foot on the brake. As far as what you say about the drum not being concentric, I’d think that’s totally possible. The holes in the drum for the wheel bolts seemed like they were big enough to allow play interestingly. I could just barely jiggle the drum when it was on and pressed firmly against the hub. My question would be, if I were to have someone apply the brake once they’re on and keep their foot on the brake through the process of mounting the wheel on, do you think this might eliminate the drum being off center of the hub? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  15. I'll start by saying I was chasing issues with front wheel bearings and brakes for a while now until I made the realization the brake pulsation and oscillation noise was more than likely coming from the rear drums dragging intermittently. The issue though gets more difficult as I've replaced everything drum related twice within the past month. First time around I replaced the both rear drums, shoes, and hardware with AutoZone parts which ended up being quite expensive because of the drums. I also replaced the wheel cylinders with NAPA Premium and bled the system. Post-installation, having adjusted the self-adjuster as close as possible, there was still slight intermittent grabbing. This of course got worse as time went on as the self-adjuster pushed the shoes further out eventually. Finally decided to return all of the parts except the wheel cylinders. Instead I ordered a kit this time from CARID "Power Stop 1-Click Drum Brake Kits KOE15300DK". I kept the NAPA wheel cylinders though, I didn't want to have to deal with replacing them again. I'll cut everything short but having finished the install, the same issue is happening again. I had to make a slight modification to the self-adjuster linkage actuator part as the indentation cuts on the shoes that the linkage part rotates in were too thin compared to the thickness of that actuator part. I doubt though this would be causing the issue, if anything the shoes would just be slightly out of adjustment and rubbing all of the time throughout the rotation of the wheel, not rubbing intermittently. I got so angry with the whole thing I just dropped it off at the local shop I frequent; he gave it back saying nothing was wrong, they made a slight adjustment apparently. Well having got it back I lifted the rear axle and its grabbing pretty fricking bad for both rear wheels, both intermittently during rotation. I really am curious if anyone else has had this much trouble with the drums before? I can't imagine going through this twice and having defective parts in both situations like an out of round drum or something of that nature. I guess anything is possible, but I'm thinking there is something else going on. Still though, not sure what that might be. Hope someone might be able to help, let me know what you all think!
  16. I just discovered a couple things that might help anyone undertaking this job in the future. Last night I was messing around with the preload nut and decided to just torque it down very tight, almost to the initial 60 ft-lb preload value. I put everything back together and found the play at 12 and 6 on the wheel had disappeared completely. Therefor, play has to be coming from the bearings, not a ball joint etc. I remembered when I was first assembling the new bearings in the hub, it was impossible to get the outer bearing past the start of the spindle. There was a video on YouTube I watched a while ago where it was recommended to tap the outer bearing with something soft/plastic into the race past the spindle because of this fact. Well during my initial assembly I had done just that. My next thought having found the play is coming from the bearing is that, I could have tapped the bearing slightly offset from the race to the point that even the 60 ft-lb preload still coudn't seat the bearing correctly. Well I've rebuilt the hub again today, but instead getting the outer bearing onto the spindle as far as I can by hand and using the preload nut to screw the bearing into the race. Did the final torque spec of 13 in-lbs, assembled everything, zero play. Cross my fingers it stays this way even after driving but it is a good sign.
  17. That was my assumption as well. I've heard if there are large quantities of corrosion buildup on the shoe contact points, that can offset the angle of the shoes just enough to induce a grab. I've been meticulously sanding and using Rust-Oleum dissolver to smooth those contact points. I've also returned all of the AutoZone parts including the drums except for the new premium NAPA wheel cylinders (hopefully these are decent quality). I've ordered the Powerstop rear drum kit; I've used Powerstop before and they seem to be a reputable company (it looks to be the only manufacturer that sells a drum kit for our Pathys). If I get grabbing again once the kit is installed I'm just going to get those drums turned and call it a day. As for the wheel bearings I'm kind of confused. So I've definitely overtightened the preload nut to try and get rid of the play, but it seems the play is coming from something other than a loose wheel bearing. I can tell it's overtightened because I can feel and hear the extra drag and extra whooshing noise when driving the vehicle. The play is certainly less than what I initially began with before changing the bearings and races but I am still getting an oscillation noise from the front end. Almost like a wub-wub noise that I've read comes from loose wheel bearings, but that can't be the case right? It happens very noticeably between about 20 and 35 mph on clean paved roads but goes away with speed increase. My assumption of course was that a loose wheel bearing is causing it but I guess its not so simple. I just had my tires rotated and balanced yesterday to eliminate the possibility of a bent wheel or unbalanced tire. Everything was apparently fine and the sound still persists. My next question is to what degree of play can you have in the front wheels before the rotors will begin to warp under braking, you mention an 1/8" of play isn't a big issue. I did also read that procedure online about doing some hard brakes to push air out of the ABS unit but I'm a little concerned about glazing over the new shoes. I haven't been able to find a bedding in procedure for drum brakes, all I could find was that after installation you should brake lightly to moderately for the first like 100 miles, otherwise you apparently glaze over your new shoes. In the FSM it mentions bleeding the master cylinder before bleeding the load sensing valve (which my Pathy does not have) and then the 4 corners. It does not give too many specifics on how to bleed the master cylinder though. Is there a possibility the air in the system is causing the grabbing issue? It'd be hard to imagine that but maybe there is a chance. Regardless thanks for the responses, let me know if I can be understood at all haha.
  18. Just finished doing a full brake job and replaced the front bearings and races, man was that fun. Now I've run into a few issues. As far as the wheel bearings, I still have slight play in either wheel at only 12 and 6 o'clock. I nipped them up which got rid of the play, drove around and once I was back, found there was slightly new play at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions again for both front wheels. I'm curious if this will happen continuously for a while as the bearings find their equilibrium, or is this something I should investigate further? Because the play is strictly at 12 and 6, this leads me to believe a worn ball joint but with just a visual inspection, the boots look like they're in perfect shape. Is there any way to differentiate between a worn ball joint or wheel bearing play? My next issue has to do with the rear drums. Having completed the front brakes I soon found out the issue was not remedied and lifted the rear axle only to find the drum shoes were grabbing as well. Decided to say what the hell and do the rear as well because of what someone mentioned earlier about the rear being able to warp the front rotors if not aligned correctly. Long story short, replaced everything; drums, shoes, hardware, wheel cylinders. I used whatever AutoZone had available for me which was not actually all that cheap. Botched the bleeding job and had to do all 4 corners because I did not keep the reservoir topped off while bleeding the new wheel cylinders (pedal still feels mushy, going to have to figure that out). Finally took the vehicle out for a test drive, came back lifted the rear axle and the fricking shoes are grabbing! Only at certain spots during rotation not throughout the whole revolution of the rear wheels. Would anyone know the variables that can cause this? I feel I did everything right besides messing up the bleed. Could it be defective parts (out of round drum from the factory), could air in the master cylinder cause grabbing for some weird reason? I know the self-adjuster adjustment is pretty critical but wouldn't that cause dragging/grabbing throughout the whole revolution not just at certain spots if it was not adjusted correctly? Is there a seating/bedding in procedure for drum shoes? I apologize for a million questions, just at wits end with this whole cluster. Feel free to answer any one of these questions, look forward to figuring this one out.
  19. I actually apply the parking brake every time I park go figure haha. If that’s the case could this still be a possibility even with the adjuster at proper position? I don’t hear any squealing from either of my brakes so I know it’s not worn past the material. Is it common for the rear drum shoes to warp? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  20. I appreciate all of the responses. I'll definitely heed the warning about using a brass or aluminum punch rod, I'm not looking to have to sand any burrs down. The reason I already have some tools for the job is I have attempted in the past to repack and nip up the lateral play in the bearings. Unfortunately this did not work, and I followed the torque recommendations exactly as stated (torque to I believe 70 ft-lbs, turn hub while torqueing, back off to zero, final torque of 13 in-lbs). Now I believe because the bearings were worn, the specified torque was not enough to take up any play. I've also had my rotors and pads replaced 4 times in a row by a shop because after a couple of months of driving, they warp again and again (they replaced them free of charge because it kept happening). My assumption finally is the bearings are loose and the rotors are warping because of this. I've also heard pathys eat up cheap rotors and this might be a contributing factor as well. I finally had a separate shop confirm the bearings were loose and or bad. There is also something to be said about the caliper needing maintenance, I am not totally familiar with doing brake jobs. One thing is for sure, I need new bearings and I plan to replace the pads and rotors at the same time because my rotors are undoubtedly warped. I'd love to hear any recommendations for installing the rotors and pads, I really don't want to finish the job only to find out my rotors are rubbing for some unforeseen reason.
  21. I've been dealing with some slop in the front wheels for quite some time now, and I'm deciding to just finally get it done myself. I already have the lock ring tool, and snap-ring plyers for replacing the front bearings, but I'll likely need a bearing/race press tool as well. My question though is I'm unsure whether I need to go for the full priced OEM bearings and races as they are substantially more than any aftermarket options. My gut feeling tells me to just deal with it as it's a very high load bearing part and under no circumstances would I want to risk having it fail while traveling down the highway at 70mph. As it stands now, for just one front wheel it would be about $100 (includes both bearing assemblies and rear seal) so $200 for both wheels. Now after market options are less than half of this an maybe I'd get what I pay for, but if anyone has experience with this I'd love to know what you chose to do and why. Are the aftermarket bearings just as good?
  22. Quick update I know it has been a while. I eventually just decided what the hell and dropped the pan so I could get as much fluid out as possible, while also being able to change the internal filter. I know everyone says it's essentially a rock catcher, but regardless if my trans is having issues there is potential for that to be the cause. I understand its more than likely another issue but I was being optimistic and hopeful it would remedy some harder shifts. Well having used all OEM parts and Valvoline Maxlife ATF fluid I can confidently say it really helped initially. I was quite surprised, and elated at this point. Unfortunately things haven't stayed this way. It's been around 6-8 months and it seems it's back to rough shifts. Although, dipstick measurements seem to be more consistent. I plan to do a drain and refill soon because this is recommended even after doing a pan drop, simply because that does not remove everything. If you perform a few drain and refills you can dilute the old fluid enough to a point where its virtually gone. I will update the topic post-operation with my findings, here's to hoping for some buttery shifting.
  23. So basically you're saying the only OEM part I really need is the strut bearing. As long as the spacer is used for the kyb mount everything should work out. For all other assembly parts I can use the included kyb kit? Also because my old OEM strut mounts are metal, there isn't any reason I can't just go ahead and reuse them is there?
  24. So you ended up just biting the bullet and buying all parts of the assembly for easier installation if I'm reading this correctly. I think as you say the safest bet is to only reuse metal parts of the assembly if in okay condition but I'm unsure of what parts this effects exactly. I realize that part "54320 - Strut Mounting Insulator Assy" is definitely metal but unsure about part "54036 - Front Spring Seat." Also would part "54329N - Front Strut Insulator Spacer" be replaced by the trim packer or added with it? I'm assuming it is metal as well. Finally when you say this you are referring to part "54322"? Can the bolts be simply pressed out because in the assembly diagram you cannot order the bolts individually? Beyond that I believe all other parts have rubber in the name. Thanks for your response btw, this definitely helps! I apologize for having so many questions.
  25. I've been curious for while now which parts need to be OEM when replacing the front struts and coils. Specifically when using KYB Excel G struts because that is where the majority of the issues I've heard about surround. Since I am planning on ordering KYB struts and OME HD coils soon for the front, I'm wondering if anyone who has had experience with this application or any knowledge on the subject can chime in. Like stated I've seen posts about the subject but not with every specific part referenced. Some things I'm sure about such as the strut bearing, and more than likely new knuckle bolts/nuts, and upper strut mounting nuts, but others I'm not so sure about. Below is a picture of the full assembly and this link (https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/parts-list/2002-nissan-pathfinder/axle_suspension/front_suspension.html?Filter=(1=W;2=VQ35DE;3=USA;4=P%2f4WD;5=LE;6=AT)&Diagram=401_A007) should lead you to that website with all listed parts and prices. As it stands, if everything is replaced without including obviously the coil and strut, I also disregarded the bump stop as I'm sure the KYB one will suffice, the total is $243.66. That is only for one coil/strut assembly, so the full total would be $487.32. Now to avoid paying more than the struts and coils themselves I ask; what will I definitely need to buy OEM, what might I be able to reuse from my old parts, and what might I be able to use from the parts included with the KYB struts. I appreciate any input so definitely don't feel as if you must answer every question I've asked. I should also mention that Rocky Road Outfitters recommends using their front leveling trim packer along with the front OME coils so I'm guessing that should be considered. I'm not aware of exactly what it is so it may be relevant or not.

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