k9sar Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 So now I'm stuck at work after limping my pathy for over an hour to keep it from blowing it's lid. Here's the sitiation: Driving home yesterday, noticed that I stopped getting heat and the temp indicator was nearing H. Limped it home and found the overflow bottle full, the radiator low on fluid and the upper hose ruptured. I replaced the hose, lowered the level in the tank, filled the radiator, burped it a couple of times by running for brief periods of time and topped of the radiator each time. Today, all seemed fine until halfway to work when the heat stopped. I assumed an air pocket so I stopped, cycled the engine in case the water pump was spinning in air, then started again. Had heat for a short period of time then nothing. The overflow was full, the radiator was low but there was no sign of coolant anywhere leaking and no big cloud from the exhaust. I repeated the topping off of the radiator a few more times to get me to work. I'm thinking either thermostat (though I seem to get circulation) or a radiator cap failure (but it seems to have at least some pressure when I open it). Any other thoughts???? Travel is severly limited so I don't want to have to try to run around more than needed to gather parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor636 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I know you said no sign of coolant anywhere but check the seams of the radiator. Just replaced a radiator in a friends 93 and there was a leak where the top plastic tank met the radiator I worked on a Civic once with similar symptoms, radiator fluid low and overflow bottle full, no signs of any coolant leak. It ended up being a head gasket. It was basically blowing air into the system, so the fluid would go into the overflow bottle, but the pressure wouldn't allow the coolant back into the system. A Honda mechanic said it was a common problem with that year Civic and the way the head gasket was designed allowed it to do that. Probably worst case scenario but maybe something to chew on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Maybe both. It does sound like a faulty thermostat, and the radiator cap explains the reservoir filling up unless it is fine and the extra heat/pressure from the faulty thermostat is just blowing past the cap. I'm assuming the inside of the radiator looks relatively clean with little to no scale? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 I got after the system with UV light last night and the only coolant was where I dripped a little bit when filling it. I don't think the rad is the problem. If it were a leak elsewhere, the coolant wouldn't be flooding the overflow. Inside the rad looks fine. If the cap is bad, the pressure would be forcing the fluid to the overflow and thus, overheating in the engine. If the thermo is bad, the truck would overheat in the engine without circulation to the rad. The coolant in the radiator is hot when I check it. I guess I'll limp it home and try a new cap and thermo (couldn't hurt). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 question..... I believe the thermo is on the block and attaches to the lower hose. Which way does the coolant flow to the radiator... in from the top hose or in from the bottom? If the thermo is on the bottom hose, one would think the coolant flowed through the thermo and into the radiator. From a purely engineering mentality, I would think it should be ther other way. In through the top and out through the bottom. That would prevent air in the block if the radiator is low on fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefarious Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Maybe there's still air in the block or heads. You need to bleed the coolant system. Don't try and burp it out, Nissan put a bleeder bolt at the highest point in the cooling system. It's near the firewall on the right side of the intake manifold, by the pcv valve. Just undo the bolt (10mm) and fill with coolant until it starts to come out there. Then you know u have a perfectly bled system. You don't even need the engine running. I would try that before anything else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefarious Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (Right side if you are looking at the engine from the front of the truck) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towncivilian Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Inspect your radiator cap following this TSB. Replace with a new OEM one if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 If the thermo is bad, the truck would overheat in the engine without circulation to the rad. Agreed, but that's assuming it is stuck shut. If it isn't opening much or only at higher heat, you could easily get the condition you have now. question..... I believe the thermo is on the block and attaches to the lower hose. Which way does the coolant flow to the radiator... in from the top hose or in from the bottom? If the thermo is on the bottom hose, one would think the coolant flowed through the thermo and into the radiator. From a purely engineering mentality, I would think it should be ther other way. In through the top and out through the bottom. That would prevent air in the block if the radiator is low on fluid. Yes, it is on the block and lower hose. I think the flow is in the top and out the bottom through the thermostat; I base this on the direction of flow and orientation of the thermostat. Someone confirm though, I'm deducing... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Well... I replaced the radiator cap and the thermostat. I bled the system as I filled it by removing that little bolt on the manifold (had the truck for 17 years and never knew that was there). Problem still occurs. I drive about 5 miles with the heater on (so I can tell when there is a problem before it overheats) and the temp indicator stays at just under half (again, I stop before I let it overheat) but the heater stops throwing heat. When I pull over, the overflow bottle is nearly full and, after releasing the pressure on the radiator and opening it, the fluid is low. I refilled it to get back home and it did it again just as I got here. Just to check if there's a big leak or anything, I squeezed the upper radiator hose and it is firm with pressure. This is a friggin closed system. I'm not figuring this one out. on a side note, I noticed that when I took out my fan, the clutch was stiff. I could turn it but it had a lot of resistance. Is that normal or has it failed too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor636 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Is the overflow bottle "overflowing" or is the amount in the overflow the same amount the radiator is missing? If you sit and let it idle with the radiator cap open can you see a flow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Damn, maybe trogdor is right about the head gasket. It doesn't make sense otherwise, the system is pretty simple. Is there any discoloration of the coolant? How much do you have to add? Is it the same amount as in the overflow tank? The fact that the heater works then stops tells me you have flow, it's the low level that causes it to stop. As for the fan clutch, when mounted, my rule of thumb is to spin it as hard as possible and let it freewheel. it should spin 1/8-1/2 turn before it stops. Not very scientific, but it's always worked for me in the past. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 The amount seems to be the same. I drain the overflow which is almost at full when I catch it (I have a soda bottle at the overflow bottle's overflow spout and it gets very little in it) and it takes all of it back into the radiator and perhaps a spoonfull more, maybe not. nothing significant. The oil is black and dark, not foamy or watery. The coolant is clear and flourescent, not frothy or oily (except for the chemicals that are supposed to be in it that make it feel oily). I'm sure I have flow... I can tell from looking, the fact that the heater works for a while, the fact that I can geyser out the bleed hole by squeezing the rad hose and when I leave the cap off and rev the engine, it sucks down (tells me the water pump is working also), the temp of the rad hoses, etc. I also stuck my face in the exhaust (cloud cause it's cold here, nothing excessive like when I blew a head gasket on my honda) and I don't smell any antifreeze in the exhaust. Gonna drop it at the shop for a diagnosis. I still refuse to let a dealership do the work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trogdor636 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Those were the same symptoms of the Civic. It didn't have the signs of a head gasket. After talking to a Honda tech he explained the exhaust gas was blowing into the coolant system, but it was like a one way valve so no coolant was getting back into the exhaust. So the exhaust was basically pushing the coolant into the overflow and the pressure wasn't allowing it back into the radiator like a normal system would work. Hopefully its not the case for you. He was telling me it was decently commonly on the year Civic I was working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5523Pathfinder Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Pull your spark plugs and look at them for abnormal deposits. If you can get your hands on a inspections cope, you could put it down the plug hole and look for coolant loss while under pressure. Or, while running, if you can get a laser thermometer pointed at the manifold, you could check the temps between the two. Even hit the individual runners and see if any one is lower than the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverton Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 It's near impossible to pop a head gasket on a VG, they have 5 head bolts per cylinder (when firing), I'm guessing there is still air. Do you have one of these? If not, make sure you park on an incline where the nose is highest and let it run for awhile. I find it odd that it isn't pulling the coolant from the overflow even with a, presumably good (because new) radiator cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 Dropped it off for diagnostics. sigh. We'll see what they find. Hopefully something quickly cause it's supposed to be nice weather for a few days and I don't enjoy freezing my butt off trying to do major work in the driveway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 29, 2012 Author Share Posted November 29, 2012 It's near impossible to pop a head gasket on a VG, they have 5 head bolts per cylinder (when firing), I'm guessing there is still air. Do you have one of these? If not, make sure you park on an incline where the nose is highest and let it run for awhile. I find it odd that it isn't pulling the coolant from the overflow even with a, presumably good (because new) radiator cap. can't see picture so I don't know what "one of these" is. As for pulling from the overflow, it normally would as it cools. I never let it do that since by the time I open it, there is already air in the system and no heat to the cabin. When I release the pressure and open the cap to refill the radiator, I eliminate the ability for it to draw back from the resevoir. If I wait for it to cool, 2 things will happen..... it will draw fluid back in and I will be sitting along the road extremely bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted November 29, 2012 Share Posted November 29, 2012 Yeah, good luck with the diagnosis, hopefully it's something relatively simple that we are all missing. I did say that you have exotic failures... B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Hopefully they aren't charging you for the diagnosis? A lot of shops will check head gaskets for free, all they do is pop the radiator cap and hover over the inlet with a tester that changes colors when exhaust gasses are present in the cooling system. Too bad I didn't catch you before you took it in. Auto parts stores sell those kits for $10-15. Hopefully it's just trapped air. Sometimes they can hold them in and take some serious persuasion to get the air pocket to burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Thinking of all the money I have saved by being an NPORA member and doing all my work myself, plus recalling the complete rebuild of my wife's van engine when it was in the teens and snowing, I figure I can drop a few dollars for someone else to figure this one out and perhaps I'll even let them do the work (if it isn't unreasonable). I'm getting old and it hurts too bad the next day after laying on the frozen ground for hours while working on my vehicles. I'll still know that I am capable... I've just gotten lazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Having a decent place to work makes all the difference in the world. I spent most of my life working in car ports, driveways, and even curbside and frankly, it sucks! I'm fortunate to have a sheetrocked garage that stays between 60 and 80 degrees year round now with my tool boxes right next to me. Only took 25 years to achieve... Hopefully the issue isn't major so the bill won't be too much. Nothing wrong with having others take care of it for you other than the sting of the bill. I know you are as 'frugal' as I am, if not more so. Again, good luck. B 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverton Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Sorry about that, I can see the picture, so that's weird. Here is a link to autozone for the item http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Lisle-Spill-free-funnel/_/N-255s?itemIdentifier=291421 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APACTKO Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 I am having the same exact problem! Im changing the water pump out and timing belt next week, as its time to do so per nissan, im curious to see if it helps. Was your coolant flowing when it was warmed up with the radiator cap off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9sar Posted December 1, 2012 Author Share Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) the results are in.... exhaust gas in the coolant. There is a breech in either a head gasket or a cracked head. estimate of $3500 to fix. I laughed and picked up the keys. I think my plan will be to order a head gasket set (includes everything), pull the heads off my spare engine and take them to the machine shot for cleaning, pressure testing and milling, seat the valves and get them completely ready to do a swap. Should run me a total of under $500. Then, while I'm there, perhaps a timing belt, cam sells and I'll pull the water pump just to check it. The gasket for that is cheap. The neat part is that I'm not getting coolant out the exhaust. The hole must be the perfect size to let the high-pressure gasses through on the power stroke but not big enough to let coolant be drawn into the cylinder on the intake stroke. Edited December 1, 2012 by k9sar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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