Can't get timing right

[sewebster]

So I replaced my camshafts and the left one with the distributor gear seems to have the gear "offset" from the oem one. So when I put the distributor in the rotor doesn't point where it used to. Ok, so I adjust the timing. Except I get to the end of travel of the distributor rotation and I'm still at 22.5 degrees BTDC. So I pull out the distributor and put it in one tooth over, and crank it all the way back in the opposite direction, but now I'm at 10 degrees BTDC. This is a VG30E and I want 15 degrees. Ugh. Am I missing something obvious? I guess I need to file out the adjustment notch (a fair amount) so I can get it right... hopefully the dizy won't hit the valve cover or something...

[MY1PATH]

did you mistakenly switch your left and right cam gears when you were doin the cams?

Edited November 26, 2010 by MY1PATH

[sewebster]

Nope. Providing that when the FSM says "right hand" it means "passenger side" and vice versa. Apparently there's only about a 4 degree total offset between the two of them anyway, so that wouldn't make this much difference.

 

My rotor has never (not now, not before) pointed like it does in the picture in the FSM either.

[Kingman]

When the number 1 piston is at Top Dead Center the rotor should be pointing to the number one plug on the cap.

[sewebster]

When the number 1 piston is at Top Dead Center the rotor should be pointing to the number one plug on the cap.

 

Well, more or less. My understanding of the system is as follows. The rotor is quite wide, so it actually makes contact with the plug terminal in the cap for a while. This allows the ECU to adjust the timing. As long as it sends the spark when the rotor is in contact it will fire. The point of rotating the distributor is to rotate the crank angle sensor with respect to the rotor and therefore the camshaft. This allows you to "tell" the ECU where the cam/crankshaft "really is."

 

Anyway, I don't think that is really relevant to my problem which is I can't get it to 15 degrees BTDC! I'm basically wondering if anyone else who has swapped cams has had a similar issue and if there is some other fix other than filing the distributor bolt slot...

[Kingman]

Because you said your rotor hasn't been lined up with the FSM diagram, I was assuming that in the FSM the rotor is pointed towards the number one plug, since number one TDC is where most manuals tell you to make sure everything is at. Are you sure you're looking for the right lines on the crank pulley? Stupid question, I know, but I've sworn up and down something was wrong when in reality I couldn't see the first line well enough.

 

Kind of a reference, 20 degrees is basically having the cap in a straight line, not turned at all.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Kingman

[sewebster]

Yeah, the FSM has the rotor NOT pointing at the #1 plug, hence me thinking it is wrong, or my distributor cap is "wrong" which I suppose is possible since it isn't OEM. But the last one was the same way.

[Kingman]

Weird. I've 2 caps with different numbers though I know one of them is correct. It's got the number one plug labeled as number four, etc. I believe number one is with the rotor pointed South West as you're facing it.

 

The only reference the FSM gives you is where the rotor is pointed to in a picture?

[sewebster]

Actually, that's another reason why I think the picture is wrong. The FSM tells you to look at the distributor shaft and rotate it to align two marks and then install the distributor. When I do this the the rotor does not point in the same direction as in the picture. My rotor ends up pointing "west" or "northwest" (meaning, pointing to the left and a bit towards the windshield, when you're facing it). The diagram in the FSM seems to show it facing southwest, so maybe I'm the odd one out somehow.

 

The crank pulley has 7 notches on it, right? with the "furthest left" being 0, then 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 BTDC. So I am trying to line it up with the middle mark...

[sewebster]

Hmm. Maybe I can just switch the wires to different sockets on the cap.... so move 1 to 2, 2 to 3 etc. Maybe then I could get it right. I guess there is nothing particularly special about which wire goes where...

[adamzan]

Actually, that's another reason why I think the picture is wrong. The FSM tells you to look at the distributor shaft and rotate it to align two marks and then install the distributor. When I do this the the rotor does not point in the same direction as in the picture. My rotor ends up pointing "west" or "northwest" (meaning, pointing to the left and a bit towards the windshield, when you're facing it). The diagram in the FSM seems to show it facing southwest, so maybe I'm the odd one out somehow.

 

The crank pulley has 7 notches on it, right? with the "furthest left" being 0, then 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 and 30 BTDC. So I am trying to line it up with the middle mark...

My crank pulley has 4 notches and 15 is right in the middle.

[sewebster]

My crank pulley has 4 notches and 15 is right in the middle.

 

Interesting... so I guess they aren't all the same. Couldn't find anything helpful in the FSM. I thought I saw a similar 7 notch pulley in one of the timing belt threads, but I can't find the right one at the moment... I think I'm going to try switching the plug wires around on the cap. I think that should work.

[frozenrotors]

Did you double and triple check your cam belt to crank timing? If the cam timing is off even 1 tooth, it can throw off your ignition timing ! I had my timing belt replaced a couple of years ago by a so called 'certified' ASE tech, and the damn truck ran terrible. I took it to another tech, and no matter how far he turned the distributor, he ran out of 'adjustment' trying to set the timing. Eventually the motor blew up. (not because the timing was off) when I pulled the old motor, I discovered the cam timing was off by 1 tooth, however the engine ran! (although poorly)And the rotor never aligned with the #1 terminal on the distributor!Pulling and moving the distributor either, one tooth advanced or retarded on the cam gear, didn't make a difference either. It was, because the initial cam timing was off, and that threw off my ignition timing!

 

Hope that helps.

Edited November 27, 2010 by frozenrotors

[sewebster]

Yeah, it's not a timing belt problem. Thanks though... definitely a good thing to check.

 

I just realized that my idea of switching the plug positions won't work either, because the crank angle sensor pickup is next to the #1 plug and the sensor plate has a larger hole for the #1 plug.. so the ECU would be confused if I switched the plug wire locations.

 

I think I might just rotate the distributor gear. Either loctite it on (shaft retaining compound) or drill a new hole for the roll pin.

[krmiller07]

Yeah, it's not a timing belt problem. Thanks though... definitely a good thing to check.

 

I just realized that my idea of switching the plug positions won't work either, because the crank angle sensor pickup is next to the #1 plug and the sensor plate has a larger hole for the #1 plug.. so the ECU would be confused if I switched the plug wire locations.

 

I think I might just rotate the distributor gear. Either loctite it on (shaft retaining compound) or drill a new hole for the roll pin.

I think your missing my point. If I'm not mistaken, the dist. gear is driven by the drivers side cam (there's a gear cast right into the cam)Not the gears on the end of the cam's. So my thought was, if your crank pulley and cam timing are off( crank position in relation to cam's, when the belt is installed. The cam is going to be in the wrong place, when you think it's lined up (by the marks on the crank pulley)so there fore when you drop this dist in the whole, the rotor is never going to line up exactly with the #1 plug terminal. I've had this happen so many times, that when everything is lined up properly, it all LOOKS right and is obvious. I would not mess with moving the gear on the dist shaft and trying to loc-tite it or put another roll pin in it. Think about it. It worked before, and NO dist cap is going to be molded that far off, and switching the plug wire will not work for the reason you stated and others! You've got a problem some where else.

[sewebster]

I think your missing my point. If I'm not mistaken, the dist. gear is driven by the drivers side cam (there's a gear cast right into the cam)Not the gears on the end of the cam's. So my thought was, if your crank pulley and cam timing are off( crank position in relation to cam's, when the belt is installed. The cam is going to be in the wrong place, when you think it's lined up (by the marks on the crank pulley)so there fore when you drop this dist in the whole, the rotor is never going to line up exactly with the #1 plug terminal. I've had this happen so many times, that when everything is lined up properly, it all LOOKS right and is obvious. I would not mess with moving the gear on the dist shaft and trying to loc-tite it or put another roll pin in it. Think about it. It worked before, and NO dist cap is going to be molded that far off, and switching the plug wire will not work for the reason you stated and others! You've got a problem some where else.

 

It didn't work before though. The cam is new. I think this aftermarket cam has the gear casting "wrong"... just offset by half a tooth or whatever from the oem one. I checked the timing belt a million times, like I do every time I install it. You can prevent installing it wrong by counting the teeth between the marks. It's fairly foolproof I think and I counted multiple times.