Camber issues with cranked t-bars

[COdreamin]

Happy Friday everybody!

 

So I had cranked my t-bars to help even out the front and back a bit and I took it to the alignment shop to get everything straightened out. Well, when I went to pick it up I noticed the ride height being back to be where I had it before the crank.

 

My question is to you guys with the t-bars cranked - how is your front wheel alignment? Do you just live with the camber issues or how do you get it decently aligned up front with the t-bars still cranked? I have the 3+3 and the front is sitting way uneven right now and it looks kinda goofy .

 

I got the lifetime alignment thing through Firestone so I can/will go back as many times as necessary to get things evened out, but I'm looking for some advice on how/if a decently aligned vehicle is achievable with the cranked t-bars.

 

Thanks everyone

 

David

[adamzan]

What they did was lower the tbars back to where they didn't have to add shims (or just adjusted the tbars till the camber lined up)

 

You need to make sure there is a note for the mech. that says do not touch Torsion bars.

[COdreamin]

Thanks for the reply Adamzan. I spoke with a guy at Firestone about keeping the torsion bars cranked and just adding shims to it and told me that adding shims would mess up the caster. I would guess something then could be done to adjust caster, but idk. Is there any validity to that statement, and/or is he just taking the easy route and not wanting to do it correctly?

[adamzan]

That I am not sure about. I recall when having mine aligned (at stock height at the time) that the camber on one side was completely out of whack but the guy never touched the tbars. He also said that my caster was out and that adjusting it would make my steering heavier.

 

Maybe someone else will know the answer to your question.

[jj big shoe]

These trucks are notoriously difficult to align. You have to add shims behind the UCA spindle for caster and camber adjustments and most shops either don't know how to do it properly or give you some BS like it'll never be able to be aligned if you raise the ride height (crank the t-bars). Plus if you have lift springs in the rear and no panhard drop bracket the rear axle will be off center and I'm not sure if that affects the measurements taken by the alignment machines. That's why I read up on it and did my own in my garage(so far so good).

Since you have the lifetime alignment deal, I'd call other Firestone shops and see if they have an old school tech that knows what he's doing or possibly a newbie tech that wants to learn. Either way, expect it to take a while longer than most alignments.

[MY1PATH]

Thanks for the reply Adamzan. I spoke with a guy at Firestone about keeping the torsion bars cranked and just adding shims to it and told me that adding shims would mess up the caster. I would guess something then could be done to adjust caster, but idk. Is there any validity to that statement, and/or is he just taking the easy route and not wanting to do it correctly?

 

 

ok, I know one of us here works there so skip this post or just read the bold center text.

Firestone(my local one @ least) is a bunch of idiots. they used crowbars and such to move my spindle to put shims in and evetually stripped out my frame holes and a few other issues.

They have on occasion raped me and now are only allowed to 'Check' my aligment(lifetime alignments). If their machine says I'm off I ajust it myself and bring it back to see how close I got it or take it somewhere else if its really off.

 

Now the caster and camber are BOTH ajusted by shims under the UCA spindle. camber is set by total number of shims and caster set by differance in the number front to back on the 2 bolts.

 

So either they don't know what they are doing, or they just got lazy (doing shims can take allot of re-checking) lowerd it and wased 2? 4? or more hours of your time you waited for it.

[tmoore4512]

Camber is simply the tires leaning in or out if you are looking at it from the front with the wheels straight.

 

Normal tires | |

Camber issue / \ or \ /

 

Basically the shims go behind the spindle to either push out the camber or pull it in (remove shims) like big shoe said.

 

If you crank your bars, man it puts a heck of a lot of pressure on your tie rods and center link. I am in the middle of it right now...trying to find the proper bolts to get my camber right so my tires do not end up in the trash pile.

 

And now, bump steer is my issue...

 

Because when you crank your bars up, your tie rod angle is increased dramatically and thus when you hit a bump, it changes the geometry and the truck does wild things...talk about white knucklin the pathfinder!

 

Either way, big shoe had it right on the money, find a cat who can hook you up, and is not lazy...

 

I just wish we had the Firestone deal here...Costs me $50 every time I get mine done...OUCH.

[tmoore4512]

Okay, forgot about caster...

 

Caster is the tilting of the uppermost point of the steering axis either back or forward (when viewed from the side). A backwards tilt is positive caster and a forward tilt is negative. Caster influences (directional?) control of the steering but does not affect tire wear, or so I am told. Caster is affected by the vehicle height, therefore a body lift jacks it all up just as much as a suspension lift...according to what I have been told. Supposedly its important to keep the body at its designed height (never EVER lift your pathy! LOL).

 

Overloading your pathfinder with guns, gear or beer, or a weak or sagging set of rear springs will affect caster.

 

When the rear of the vehicle is lower than its designated trim height, the front suspension moves to a more positive caster. If the rear of the vehicle is higher than its designated trim height, the front suspension moves to a less positive caster. So a factory Pathfinder sits lower in the rear right? Maybe I should let some air outta my shocks...lol

 

With too little positive caster, steering may be touchy at high speed and wheel return ability may be lessened when coming out of a turn.

 

If one wheel has more positive caster than the other, that wheel will pull toward the center of the vehicle. This condition will cause the vehicle to pull or lead to the side with the least amount of positive caster.

 

If I understand it correctly...

 

Hope that helps some.

[tmoore4512]

And again My1path takes the cake...we must have been typing at the same time...

[COdreamin]

Thanks to all you guys for the responses! Sounds like I need to call around and get and old school guy who knows what he's doing. We have like 20 Firestones in the Denver metro area, and it sounds like I'll need to go through most of that list to find a halfway decent alignment guy. Now I have some background knowledge on how it all works so I've got some ammo when they give me the run around bs. Thanks everybody.

 

And jj, where did you find your info on how to align stuff yourself? Was there a source that helped more than the rest? In the mean time i'll do some googling..

[jj big shoe]

...therefore a body lift jacks it all up just as much as a suspension lift...according to what I have been told

Not at all. A body lift has no affect on your suspension or steering geometry whatsoever and a suspension lift won't directly affect it either. It's affected once you start adding shims to get the camber correct after a suspension lift.

 

I Googled "driveway alignment", "hot to set camber", and stuff like that for the info.

Here's a link to another post where I went over how I did my own front end alignment. It's probably not exactly dead-on, but it's a lot closer than any of the three shops I've been to that charged me $100+.

[Slashjt]

I had a similar problem.. I took it to a firestone(ish) alignement center and they wanted to touch the T-bars .. but I told them that they had to use shims and stuff.. USD$20 later My truck was good to go.

 

Print out this thread and take to your shop!

[tmoore4512]

I did not mean that as gospel...just what I had been told by several "alignment" guys. I don't see it as an issue that WOULD affect caster anyway. Just another ploy on the part of the money makers to keep trucks low...haha

[jbdevega]

alignment with the older Pathfinders and Hardbodys is a PITA, i know first hand because i got the run around for the longest time untill I started doing my own alignment. First i will start with the basics on aligning these things.

 

1. If your lifted or go off roading, the balljoints that are built into the centerlink tend to wear out very quickly and develop a lot of wobble in the steering. I suggest upgrading the centerlink either to a Calmini or HooHaa steering system that doesn't use balljoints in the centerlink. Check the bushing and UCA bolts, i noticed worn out bushing make a huge difference in the alignment while under driving coditions, and also some pathys with repeat alignment problems get the UCA bolts with wear marks in them that cause them to slip out of potions allowing any shims to fall out and causing the UCA to move in and out. Just buy new bushing or bolts, bolts are 14mm x 1.5 thread pattern, also note sometimes 3" lifted pathfinders need extended bolts. Try the following site for extended or replacement bolts http://www.boltdepot.com/product.aspx?cc=20&cs=77&cm=21&cd=1384

 

2. You can align the camber by just using a level, just put it up against the rims (i had to cut a 16" price of wood so the level aligned up with my rim). just use how far the bubble is off as a guide for shims (i found this is accurate by about 1/16") just loosen the bolts, add the shims, re-tighten the bolts, drive around the block. if camber is still off just pull out the level again and add or remove more shims. Ive never worried about Caster because it never affected my tire wear or alignment much.

 

3. Adjusting the toe gets a bit interesting because the best way Ive found to do this is to take a measuring tape and just measure the forward most part of the tires and compare that measurement to the rear most part of the tires. Nissan's are known for liking a slight toe in, even while doing this i noticed i can never seem to get the toe 100% correct.

 

 

I started dong my own alignment because i had the worn out centerlink, worn out UCA bolts, and worn out bushing, and no alignment shop seemed to notice any of those issues. only when i started ripping into my own alignment that i began to notice all these problems explaining why my alignment was all ways off.

[jj big shoe]

I had a similar problem.. I took it to a firestone(ish) alignement center and they wanted to touch the T-bars

I think they're trying to go off spec and since it's lifted their alignment numbers will be off. I went to a dealership near Tampa and they wouldn't even touch it since it was lifted. Find a real tech that has the time and they'll square it up. Otherwise, start doing it yourself.

[MY1PATH]

BTW on a lifted pathfinder the camber can be set to 0, or closer too it, instead of ~1* negative because of how the geometry behaves in the lifted postion.

[tmoore4512]

Thats funny...I just ordered bolts from the Bolt Depot...LOL Since Fastenal sucks...

[adamzan]

It is really hard to find someone to align these trucks properly. I've taken mine to 2 places so far. And they can do the toe fine but not the freaking camber.

 

Next stop dealership.

[tmoore4512]

Well, I am about to do it myself...rather when the bolts arrive. I have done it multiple times on other vehicles, Toyota's and GM products. Have done some straight axle rigs as well, those are easy.

 

This IFS nonsense...wow....

 

I guess I should do a walk through...heheheh...for my own sake!

[adamzan]

Do it so I can do mine lol.

[tmoore4512]

Waitin on my bolts to arrive and when they do...I will break it down and do just that...I love that crap anyway, my wife says I take more pictures of my truck, and what I do to it then I do of my family...which is pretty obvious, according to my site. LMAO