New Lifters

[Chriskaw440]

Finally got to replace my passenger side lifters tonight. Even after soaking (and shaking) the new lifters in oil for a couple days, they still tapped like hell on first start up after the job was finished but after a few minutes total they went quiet. I will try attaching a couple pictures to show my "milk jug oil bath" and also what one of the original lifter tips looked like ....actually worn to the point of it having pieces broken off (two were like this actually).

 

The bottoms (that ride on the cam shaft) showed absolutely NO WEAR whatsoever and neither did the cam lobes....after 250,000 miles. I was somewhat expecting to see a little wear or groved spots but they looked at good as the new ones.

 

Easy job to do, although now I have to get ready for the drivers side.....fun fun...all that intake coming off again. Urgh.

[MY1PATH]

inspite your soaking (which is very good) the only way to get a new lifter to be silent on first start(not essential) is to cycle them in oil (compress repeatedly) or dissasemble them and re-assemble under oil (very messy). Keep sharp on your oil changes and they should stay silent for at least 100K or more.

 

Lifter and cam wear:

I'm sure they did, but not in a way that you would think. the lifters rotate while running so the cam wears them evenly with no groved spots.

Because both surfaces are smooth and hardened the worn surface just looks like a mirror shine.

If you were to mic. your cam lobes they might be .003 shorter than when they were new and the same for your lifter pads.

Worry not, your engine will run fine(.390 lift instead of .393) the cams I just sent to schneider were just like that and came from a lesser mileage donor engine.

Edited January 30, 2010 by MY1PATH

[Chriskaw440]

inspite your soaking (which is very good) the only way to get a new lifter to be silent on first start(not essential) is to cycle them in oil (compress repeatedly) or dissasemble them and re-assemble under oil (very messy). Keep sharp on your oil changes and they should stay silent for at least 100K or more.

 

Lifter and cam wear:

I'm sure they did, but not in a way that you would think. the lifters rotate while running so the cam wears them evenly with no groved spots.

Because both surfaces are smooth and hardened the worn surface just looks like a mirror shine.

If you were to mic. your cam lobes they might be .003 shorter than when they were new and the same for your lifter pads.

Worry not, your engine will run fine(.390 lift instead of .393) the cams I just sent to schneider were just like that and came from a lesser mileage donor engine.

 

 

thanks for the info. I kinda figured they may tap at first because I don't see how soaking them could really get all the air out, even though I did toss them around a lot from time to time

in the oil. I hear ya on the 'compressing them repeatedy" by hand...I tried and it's not so easy LOL since they are small and it takes a bit of effort to compress them.

 

as for the wear, I was just glad I didn't see any extreme stuff like groves and such. I am extremely adamant about oil changes and top grade oil use.

 

I wanted to post a couple of pics here but can't figure out how to.

 

-Chris

[MY1PATH]

go to photobucket.com or imageshack.com and create a free account. once you upload pics there you can link the images here.

[Chriskaw440]

I dropped my new lifters into a coffee can filled with 5W30 and heated the oil to about 250F with a torch on the outside of the can, then shook the can around and tapped on the lifters as well. The heat should thin the oil out and let it penetrate into the lifter much better. You'll see bubbles creep out of them after you tap on them a few times. I think my new lifters were tapping, so I resurfaced the old ones and dropped them back in. They still sound like they're tapping a bit, though. Might be the different cam profile, I'm not sure.

 

 

I tapped on my new ones too a bit banged the bucked up and down from time to time (also used 5w30) and did see some tiny bubbles creep out of the tops. Like mentioned earlier though....I doubt anything else much would work better than actually putting them to work in the car. Fussy little buggers aren't they!

 

Thanks for the photo posting info too! Hope the link(s) below work. One shows the damaged top of one of the original lifters.

 

-chris

 

 

My link

 

My link

 

My link

Edited January 31, 2010 by Chriskaw440

[MY1PATH]

Might be the different cam profile, I'm not sure.

 

 

you re-ground schneider cam likely had the base-cirlcle ground down to create more lift.(the lifter compresses less overall and so it raises the valve more when it reaches the lobe peak). this can typically be remedied by placing an appropriate sized shim inside the lifter before it is installed. I will pobably be shimming my new lifters for the schneider cams once I know how much they took off the base-circle. I'll try to remember to make a shiming guide.

[jj big shoe]

you re-ground schneider cam likely had the base-cirlcle ground down to create more lift.(the lifter compresses less overall and so it raises the valve more when it reaches the lobe peak). this can typically be remedied by placing an appropriate sized shim inside the lifter before it is installed. I will pobably be shimming my new lifters for the schneider cams once I know how much they took off the base-circle. I'll try to remember to make a shiming guide.

I remember seeing something about shimming in the Z31 pages, but it looked a bit more complicated than I wanted to bother with at the time. I just wanted to get the friggin' thing back together. If you did come up w/ a guide and a how-to, I'd prolly dig into the heads again.

[MY1PATH]

I remember seeing something about shimming in the Z31 pages, but it looked a bit more complicated than I wanted to bother with at the time. I just wanted to get the friggin' thing back together. If you did come up w/ a guide and a how-to, I'd prolly dig into the heads again.

 

 

I saw the same guide, tho I can't find it anymore. I is simpler than that tho.

The guide given was pretty much turning the hydraulic lifter into a solid he had to ajust his shims and check them in the head to make sure the valve would close all the way which is time consuming and repetitive task.

 

My version is allot simpler a little math before hand and a singe action to every lifter. Lets say the radius @ the lowest part of the stock cam is .650"(this is the valve closed position) and @ this postion the cam has put .080" preload on the lifter spring. Now you have a re-ground cam and the lowest radius is .630" and therefore the preload is now only .050" (you follow me, .030" smaller is .030" less preload). so now lets put a .020" shim inside the lifter thus increasing the lifters preload by .020"+the .050" from the cam= .070"

Q) so now why aren't we putting a .030" shim in the lifter to restore original preload?

A) many reasons but the ones that matter the most;

-the tallest part of the lifter may be the same as stock so a compromise will reduce wear @ the lope peak

-we are only helping the lifter spring a little so the oil(hydraulic action) can do its job better. We are not replacing the hydraulic action.

-preload inside the lifter is constant so less is requred where as preload outside the lifter from cam postion and velociy can be varible.

 

so to sum it up it would be like this (O - R).6=S

(Origianl base minus Reground base) times .60" = Shim reccomendation.

[Chriskaw440]

I saw the same guide, tho I can't find it anymore. I is simpler than that tho.

The guide given was pretty much turning the hydraulic lifter into a solid he had to ajust his shims and check them in the head to make sure the valve would close all the way which is time consuming and repetitive task.

 

My version is allot simpler a little math before hand and a singe action to every lifter. Lets say the radius @ the lowest part of the stock cam is .650"(this is the valve closed position) and @ this postion the cam has put .080" preload on the lifter spring. Now you have a re-ground cam and the lowest radius is .630" and therefore the preload is now only .050" (you follow me, .030" smaller is .030" less preload). so now lets put a .020" shim inside the lifter thus increasing the lifters preload by .020"+the .050" from the cam= .070"

Q) so now why aren't we putting a .030" shim in the lifter to restore original preload?

A) many reasons but the ones that matter the most;

-the tallest part of the lifter may be the same as stock so a compromise will reduce wear @ the lope peak

-we are only helping the lifter spring a little so the oil(hydraulic action) can do its job better. We are not replacing the hydraulic action.

-preload inside the lifter is constant so less is requred where as preload outside the lifter from cam postion and velociy can be varible.

 

so to sum it up it would be like this (O - R).6=S

(Origianl base minus Reground base) times .60" = Shim reccomendation.

 

 

Uhh...wow LOL......I just wanted new lifters That's too much like Quantum Physics for me. But for the die hard engineer....rock on!

[MY1PATH]

Uhh...wow LOL......I just wanted new lifters That's too much like Quantum Physics for me. But for the die hard engineer....rock on!

 

 

lol sorry We got a tangent about modfying lifters for Reground cams

[beastpath]

lol sorry We got a tangent about modfying lifters for Reground cams

 

you should add that info to your cam thread.

[MY1PATH]

I will when I get arround to shimming the lifters.

[Chriskaw440]

I will when I get arround to shimming the lifters.

 

 

WTF....tonight I get into my Pathy to head to the gym, and TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP TAP like crazy.....NON STOP....all the way to the gym and back even after full warm up.

 

Coming from the passenger side lifters, the new ones most definitly.

 

Oil passages all looked clear when I had everything out, rocker arms seemed ok, for two days it ran nice and quiet, then tonight, bang bang bang...sounding like a broken sewing machine.

 

Options???? I'm thinking maybe one or two (or more??) lifters are defective?

 

I'm going to get back into it this week and hopefully see whats going on. I should be able to at least let the engine idle with the valve cover off right? to help pinpoint the source of the tapping.

 

Frustrated. Another reason I liked Rotary engines much better.

 

thanks, Chris.

[MY1PATH]

I should be able to at least let the engine idle with the valve cover off right? to help pinpoint the source of the tapping.

Nope, unless you don't mind a mess... I'd get a steath a scope or lean a dowel to the valve cover and the other end to your ear. this will help you find the culprit thru the cover.

 

How many miles since the lifter change. new lifters will dirty the oil faster after fresh install beacuse they have to break in.

Edited February 2, 2010 by MY1PATH

[Chriskaw440]

Nope, unless you don't mind a mess... I'd get a steath a scope or lean a dowel to the valve cover and the other end to your ear. this will help you find the culprit thru the cover.

 

How many miles since the lifter change. new lifters will dirty the oil faster after fresh install beacuse they have to break in.

 

Maybe close to 50 miles if even that. Put them in last Friday night....did some local driving sat and sunday. All was quiet. then Monday evening, tapping louder than I have ever heard consistantly.

 

With new lifters, I noticed that I could compress most all of them with my fingers, and one of two (I cant remember) didn't seem to move at all. Should they always be "springy"? I thought maybe the stiffness was just because they were new or my fingers were tired.

 

I still have all the old ones, minus the two tore up ones of course, that I can swap out with to find the possible bad one or two.

 

thanks

[87pathy]

a possible problem.

 

in general when you change your lifters you should change your cam.. yes i know this sounds rediculous.

but new cams wear into new lifters and they ride along happily for a long time.

but when you put new lifters on an already worn in cam, your cam wears in again and sometimes, not so happily.

I'd check your cam for a flat spot.

 

and if you don't believe me, go find yourself an old school mechanic (and not the backyard redneck type) and ask him if its a good idea to put new lifters on an old cam.

[Chriskaw440]

a possible problem.

 

in general when you change your lifters you should change your cam.. yes i know this sounds rediculous.

but new cams wear into new lifters and they ride along happily for a long time.

but when you put new lifters on an already worn in cam, your cam wears in again and sometimes, not so happily.

I'd check your cam for a flat spot.

 

and if you don't believe me, go find yourself an old school mechanic (and not the backyard redneck type) and ask him if its a good idea to put new lifters on an old cam.

 

 

Well apparantly here's the deal, removed the rocker arm cover, let it idle so I could take a visual inspection, and found that the rear upper rocker arm (closest to the firewall) seems to

have some 'play' in it. I could move it around some while the engine was running so its basically banging back and forth on the lifter tip and the valve tip. It seems loose in otherwords. all the others are nice and tight.

 

The rocker arm bolts are all still snug and torqued.

 

Time for new rocker arm shaft and arms??

 

possibly THAT particular lifter is to blame? too short?

 

Thats definitly where the noise is coming from though.

[87pathy]

ya, id vote rocker arm.

[Chriskaw440]

ya, id vote rocker arm.

 

 

how do you attach them to the shaft? I've never replaced one before....I assume (that's a scary word isn't it! LOL) they more or less 'press onto the shaft and snap into place or something like that?

 

my other thought was if maybe the new lifter collapsed, making it too short ...but I think that's a wild guess.

[87pathy]

you might have to replace the arms completely.

not really sure..

[Chriskaw440]

I'll have to check on that....I see where you can buy the shafts and the arms as seperate parts......just a matter of how they assemble together.

[GrimGreg]

If it has play in it while running I would think that the lifter isn't working right, or the rocker is very heavily worn (doubt that). How loose is that rocker compared to the others with the engine off? That lifter might be stuck so it isn't self adjusting properly.

[Chriskaw440]

If it has play in it while running I would think that the lifter isn't working right, or the rocker is very heavily worn (doubt that). How loose is that rocker compared to the others with the engine off? That lifter might be stuck so it isn't self adjusting properly.

 

 

funny you mention that....

 

when the engine is OFF, all others are nice and tight, cannot be moved....this one rocker arm is still loose, and....the lifter itsself looks like it is sitting lower in the lifter block by maybe 1/16" compared to the others. the shoulder of the lifter is sitting just below the lifter hole in the block, while all the other lifters shoulders are sitting either just barely over the hole edge, or higher, depending on how they are resting on the cam lobes. So I cranked it again for about 30 seconds, then looked again at that one lifter and its still sitting lower than the others. Tonight I will probably pull the lifter block off again and swap out that one lifter with one of the originals that I removed to see if that makes any difference. I doubt that suddenly with new lifters, one of the rocker arms would suddenly go bad but I guess just about anything is possible LOL.

[MY1PATH]

take the shine off that old lifter with some 400 grit on a hard flat surface (unless it was the same one that came from that lobe.)

 

did you get a spray or splashing of oil when you ran it w/o covers?

 

 

[Chriskaw440]

take the shine off that old lifter with some 400 grit on a hard flat surface (unless it was the same one that came from that lobe.)

 

did you get a spray or splashing of oil when you ran it w/o covers?

 

Yes I had to put some rags around the head when I ran it with the cover off....as the oil was spattering about while running.

 

(it was at least good to see that there was good oil circulation!)

 

The old lifters are out of order now sitting (still up right) on my work bench....so I dont know which one was originally in that spot....except for the two obvious bad ones that were removed

from other locations in the lifter block.