my pathy doesnt like to start

[mtpathy]

hey all,

 

i have been able to get a lot of help here while posting only once or twice but now i am stumped!

 

last monday my truck, 94 5 spd SE-V6 did not want to start. i checked the battery, and charging system and they seem fine. then i checked volts at the starter with the key in start position and had more than 12. i noticed the start, when it did start, was a really slow sluggish crank.

 

i was able to get it to crank 60 - 70% of the time if i tapped the starter with a hammer so i figured the starter or solenoid was toast.

 

i replaced the starter yesterday and she cranked right up, nice fast crank and buzzzz sound from the new starter. ran for a few minutes then turned it off and it would not start again.

 

today it started a few times but would not start many more times. i am starting to suspect the ignition switch or the clutch start switch, the switch that allows it to start with the clutch in.

 

i have held the key in the start position and pushed in the clutch repeatedly and it starts eventually.

 

does this sound familiar to anyone, or make sense.

 

i had the old starter tested at NAPA and it was bad, but not completely dead, it turned but real slow.

 

 

what do you think

[88pathoffroad]

Clean your battery cable connections and the battery terminals before doing anything else.

[mtpathy]

already did all that, and replaced the negative cable cuz it looked kind of bad, and ive got 12.6 volts at th ebattery

[mtpathy]

so right now i think i have tested the clutch interlock relay to be bad, maybe known as the starter relay. anybody else had a problem with this relay, it is associated with the switch above the clutch pedal, and seems wired to the ignition switch as well. this relay is blue and 4 pin, located just to the rear of the battery on the passenger side fender wall. any idea what its really called or what one might cost. i am thinking it is a dealer part. thanks for any input

[5523Pathfinder]

Yep, the interlock relay has caused plenty of problems. Should have two connectors plugging into it. I usally give it a tap with a screwdriver and they fire right up. It would not cause a slow crank though. IF thats the case, like 88 said, tighten those cables.

[mtpathy]

thanks guys,

 

when they tested the starter is was real slow, so the starter must not have been completley dead, but apparently close, so i have a new starter.

 

the cables initially had some corrosion, but i cleaned that up and replaced the negative cable, which can never hurt bit didnt change any of my symptoms. fired right up this morning so maybe after messing withthe relay, removing replacing, and testing, it may work for a while. i will look for one of the relay anyway, cant hurt to swap it out.

[M in KC]

When my original starter finally gave up the ghost in my '91 5-speed I replaced it and within a couple of week the the new one failed. Cross my fingers I've had the third one in there a couple of years no issues. I think you're on the right rack. Cables, connections, relay or starter. I highly doubt it would be the iggy switch.

 

M

[mtpathy]

i sure hope its not the ignition, i tested it and it seemed to have power when it should, but not sure yet. i will try the relay first at any rate.

 

thanks

[mtpathy]

man, i dont beleive it, i bought the new relay and the thing still dont want to start. i am stumped. if i hold the key in the start position and push in the clutch repeatedly it eventually starts. i here the click each time i push in the clutch.

 

i am starting to get frustrated!

[Jdpathy]

I am not very good at engine diagnosis, but it sounds like the ignition switch

[mikemike]

and you got the right starter for sure?

[mtpathy]

well the ignition switch seems to trigger the starter solenoid each time i turn the key, it just does not start every time. i am pretty sure i have the right starter, but it is a remanufacured unit and i am starting to suspect that i may have gotten one that has a dead spot in it. when the starter does fire it starts the truck perfectly.

[88pathoffroad]

Some people have had luck replacing just the single wire from the relay to the starter. Seems like it was a resistance problem complicated by the age of the wiring.

[k9sar]

My parents neighbor had a problem that might be related. turns out, through troubleshooting voltages, there was a voltage drop between the ignition switch and the inhibitor relay. Bad wire or connector in main harness. They ran a new wire, bypassing the old one. I'll get the write-up from him and post it

[jgt]

My 92 pathfinder has had 2 ignition swtiches within the last 2 1/2 years for not starting. It's been 3 months since the last one and it starts up every time.

[mtpathy]

i have been wondering about a bad wire in there somewhere, i think i will pull the starter and check the reading at the wire from relay to the starter, cant really get to it with the starter in, but after pulling it once it wont be that bad the second time.

 

and the ignition switch, i am wondering how to determine its bad, and if replacing it means a new key and everything, ouch thats expensive too.

 

thanks for the ideas, keep em coming

[k9sar]

Pathfinder Starter Story

 

My neighbor has a ’94 Pathfinder with VG30E engine, speed control, four wheel drive, and an automatic transmission.  Over the past couple of years the starting system had deteriorated to the point it was really annoying him.  Turning the key to the start position would produce a reasonably loud click from the starter solenoid but the engine would not always crank.  After a random number of attempts (between 1 and 10) the engine would crank and start.  He replaced the battery and cleaned the terminal clamps.  He said this improved but did not eliminate the situation.  He then replaced the starter which, I understand, is a real “pain in the butt” job.  The condition remained unchanged.  At this point he invited me into the fray.  I measured the voltage directly at the battery terminals, then at the clamp bolts, then at the starter positive terminal.  In all three cases, it was 12 volts when the engine failed to crank and dropped to about 11 volts whenever the engine cranked (not bad, my old ’70 Ford 390 used to pull the battery down to 9 volts).  To double check, I measured the voltage drop from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive terminal of the starter during cranking and found no significant voltage drop in that circuit.  I repeated that test for the negative side checking from the battery negative terminal to the starter housing with the same results.  That assured that there were no bad cables or connections in that part of the circuit.  I then measured the voltage at the output of the starter solenoid/relay and found it to be zero when the solenoid clicked but the engine did not crank and 11 volts when it did crank.  Based on my many years of experience as a DIY backyard mechanic and on the data obtained, I told my neighbor the solenoid/relay on the new starter was bad and his positive and ground cables and connections were fine.  A few days later I found he had replaced the positive and negative battery cables, exchanged his new battery for a larger one and been sent home by the parts store with his tail between his legs concerning the idea that the new starter was bad.  They had bench tested it and it was fine.  I then bench tested it myself and also found it to apparently be working fine.  I used jumper cables to connect the battery to the starter and my meter clip leads to apply 12 volts to the solenoid coil.  Curious, I tested his old starter and it was also fine.  At this point I was puzzled and had him reinstall the starter he wanted to keep.  He put the new one back in.  By now he was getting good at it.  No change, it was intermittent.  At this point I needed to look at my son’s Pathfinder service manual and my neighbor had a hot date so we called it a day.  Tucked in the starting system pages of my son’s manual I found a disclaimer from the parts vendor who supplied his new starter (the installation of which fixed his problem) that essentially said, ‘If you install my wonderful new starter and you still have the problem, don’t blame my starter, you need to replace your inhibitor relay or fusible link.”  In addition the flyer gave instructions on how to verify the problem with voltage measurements.  It described sort of a backward way of doing it, but it would work.  Basically you needed to measure the voltage at the “trigger” wire terminal of the starter harness with the key in the ‘start’ position and the terminal connected and it better be above 10 volts.  That is the wire that delivers the energizing voltage to the starter solenoid.  I dismissed the idea of a fusible link problem because everything else was working fine.  Let me just say that I did not believe this claim by the parts supplier.  In all of my years of fussing with such things, a nice strong click from the starter relay indicated it was getting sufficient voltage to operate.  I could not envision how the solenoid could be mechanically designed such that it could throw hard enough to make a gratifying noise and extend the spur gear without performing its electrical contactor function.  I called my neighbor and told him about the disclaimer I had found, the accusation it made and the location of the inhibitor relay.  With nothing better to do at the moment we met in his driveway and measured the trigger wire voltage.  It is a heavy single black/pink wire with a connector in line that you can get your hands on just to the rear of the battery.  I probed the backside of the connecter while he operated the ignition switch.  To my amazement, the voltage was between 5 and 6 volts!  Getting at the inhibitor relay wires would require removal of the windshield washer tank and relay mounting screws and it was late and cold so I told him to call when he had it apart and then we could trouble shoot the circuit.  A few days later he had gone ahead and replaced the relay and still had the problem.  So far he had invested in a new battery, new cables, new starter, new relay, and he still the same old problem.  Some people have more money than patience.  He said that the relay socket looked good.  The schematics suggested that the next step would be to trouble shoot at the ignition switch.  From there we should be able to nail this problem down once and for all.  Several cold rainy days later he had the steering column cover off, and the relay and washer tank were still laying there loose so we resumed our efforts.  At the ignition switch, five wires are soldered directly to the switch terminals.  The ignition switch connector (221M) is at the other end of these wires and behind the dash.  I don’t do “under the dash” work anymore so I trouble shot from the solder terminals.  I sorted out the five terminals with my volt meter since the wiring diagram does not give the color codes for these pigtail wires.  The trigger wire is black with yellow tracer, the hot wire is white with red tracer and I didn’t care about the rest.  With ignition on, the hot wire voltage was 11 volts (I think his battery was a bit run down by this time) and in the start position with the engine not cranking (the failure condition) the terminals all measured 10 volts.  Under the same conditions, the input to the inhibitor relay (the black yellow wire) was less than 6 volts.  At this point let me say that we are talking about the voltage that goes through the contacts of the inhibitor relay, not the voltage to the inhibitor relay coil, so the neutral switch is not involved.  Using my meter leads as a jumper I established a connection directly from the solder joint on the ignition switch to the inhibitor relay contactor input.  The starter system performed flawlessly ten times in a row.  There is only one thing between the ignition switch solder joint and the inhibitor relay socket and that is connector 221M buried in that mess behind the dash board.  Like I said, I am too old to go there.  And, if we did find the connector and the bad crimp or bad contacts it would not be a trivial task to find and install new connectors.  There is a real handy thin steel cover plate over a firewall hole just behind the washer tank and it is really easy to drill a 3/16 hole through it with the tank shoved aside.  It is equally easy to cut and strip the black/yellow wire an inch and a half from the ignition switch and an inch and a half from the relay socket.  Feeding a three foot long piece of 14 gauge stranded wire through the drilled hole and splicing it in to bypass connector 221M is a two minute job even in cold weather and solved the problem admirably.  We topped off the work with a wad of duct seal around the wire to seal the newly drilled hole (bubble gum would work as well) and declared victory.  Unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to disassemble the starter solenoid on the old starter so I am still wondering how that design could work mechanically while failing electrically.

[mtpathy]

well that sure describes what i have been doing in stunning detail. i cant wait to get home from work now, oh snap its Valentines Day. Well the wife may not like it but ive got a date with the garage!

 

thanks k9sar

 

ill keep posting

[mtpathy]

well, i am a little hesitant to declare victory but this seems to have eliminated the no start condition. i jumped a wire from the black/yellow at the ignition switch to the black/yellow at the relay and voila it started 15 times in a row. the only time it did not start was as soon as i disconnected the jumper wire. then i reconnected and pow starts every time. now i just have to wire it up permanently.

 

 

k9sar YOU are the man! Thanks

 

everyone else, thanks for the input and interest. i will post soon to make sure this was the problem. like i said i am hesitant to jump up and down yet, but it seems like a winner so far.

[mtpathy]

well she's a starter now. has'nt missed a beat. there is one thing to add though, the black and yellow wire from the ignition feeds the relay two times. when the black and yellow is cut at the ignition switch, it must be spliced into the relay at BOTH black and yellow connections at the interlock, or inhibitor relay behind the battery. there is a heavy black and yellow wire that goes into one connector, and a smaller gauge black and yellow at the other connector. this relay is on the fender well just behind the battery and is blue, and bigger, two connectors, than the others located in the same area and under the cover on the fender.

 

 

thanks again guys, without the post from K9sar id be in the garage right now!

[k9sar]

I'll defer the credit to my old man. He's the one who did the troubleshooting on the neighbors pathy. All I did was provide the schematics, moral support and post the results.

 

glad to hear you're rolling again