ARRRRRRRRG Read This!

[Z_Pilot]

I'll do my best to condense this story.

 

North Carolina, this last spring.

I am an airline pilot, and had a new opportunity to fly in Hawaii. Seeing that I will be transferred in a few months, I decide that i'll ship the Pathy. I am not a mechanic, but I really believe in preventive maintanecne. Approaching 100k I decided to do a water pump\timing belt job (among other things). Long story short, the shop (allegedy) replaced the water pump & timing belt.

I fly into Charlotte (where I used to live) to pick up my last possesion (Pathy) to drive it back to New Mexico for a couple of weeks (while I continue training on a different aircraft). The 1800 miles when flawlessly...she ran great! I finish the last phase of my training, pick up the Pathy in NM and tow a uHaul to Portland Oregon...again, she ran great, no problems. She ends up in Seattle a couple of days later to board a ship for the big island, Hawaii.

 

It is a long wait, takes a month and a grand. I am living in Kona (west side of the big island). I have to pick her up in Hilo (east side of the big island). I go to the gas station & fill her up...as I leave the gas station, I hear a loud squeal..me thinks it has been sitting for a month and been in salty air...rediator fan or serpentine belt is squeaking. No biggie, I will figure it out later. One mile later, I smell something burning. I am on a highway with a dozen cars in front of me. Me thinks: "nah, it's not me." One mile later, she dies without warning. I coast to the nearest pull out, and guess what, it is the turn-in for a correctional facility!

 

We crank her and crank her...she turns, but nothing happens. We check all of the electrical connections. All looks good. Hmmm....getting dark, right outside of a prison\jail...time to get towed somewhere. I know nothing about Hilo and no one will advise me which shop to take it to. Besides, it is after-hours. I give up and have her taken to the (closed) nissan dealer\service center (the only one on that side of the isalnd).

We noticed that a Checker Auto Parts store is still open. We rent a car, go there, buy some tools, starting fluid, and a coil. With the starting fluid, we eliminated a fuel problem. We replace the coil (after checking the connections again)...nothing. She still cranks, but does not run...not a battery\starter\alternator problem. My friend is a bit more mechanically inclined than I am, he takes the distributor cap off and wants me to crank the motor while he looks to see if the rotor is turning. It does not. Hmmm...not good.

Time for some brainstorming. We think about some of the seperate events that happened that night. This was our conclusion: The squeal we heard was the (new) water pump seizing. The smell we heard was my timing belt smoking\melting. Keep in mind that I had just replaced these items

 

Fortunately, there was no clunking, vibrations, or noises. I have my fingers crossed that I did not have valve damage.

 

The Pathy is now at the other side of the island at the dealership. I requested that they do a compression test for valave damage. I don't want to pay them to remove the head to check. If they think that I did not do valve damage, then they are to replace the water pump and timing belt. (I know the dealer is mucho $$, but I'd have to fly over there, and arrange a tow to some random shop that I don't know anything about) If there is major damage, then I'll have to figure out how to tow the Pathy a 100+ miles to Kona. Then, I have many choices to make, hopefully with your advice.

 

The Pathy is a keeper bceuse I love her (and already sunk mucho $$ into her).

 

Lesson learned: Buy a new genuine Nissan water pump.

 

Questions:

With the information that I shared, would you come to same conclusion about the water pump seizing \ timing belt breaking? I coasted about 75 yards until I stopped.

 

Any other thoeries?

 

What are the chances that I did not receive valve damage from this event?

50% - 50% did\did not?

Should I have heard anything if the pistons were banging into the valves?

 

Is it true that if I just had a valve job done on a 100k engine that I risk the chance of blowing the rings?

 

What's the best option for me if I have major valve damage (considering $ too)?

Buy a used engine imported from Japan? (that has 40 to 60k miles)

Rebuild engine?

Buy a rebuilt engine $2500! :o

Other options?

 

Yes, it would be fun to have an L&P ported head on top of a rebuilt engine with slightly higher compression pistons, but living exspenses are higher out here, and I just dont have the $ for that.

 

Thanks for any and all advice you can share with me.

Please send me links, suggest a used engine depot, or anything....

 

Z_Pilot

stranded in Hawaii :sniff:

[zonianbrat]

Dam sorry to hear about your pathy. First thing is to find out what went wrong for sure. If the water pump did sieze (does not seem likely if it was just replaced but stranger things have happened) and the t-belt did break or fail then I would be on the phone with the mechanic who did the job. Hopefully you kept the reciept if so I know you are in Hawaii but still bad buisness is bad buisness they should honor their work and either refund some $$ or pay for the repairs but that is in a perfect world not too likely to happen. I think if the timing belt did break then it is more than likely you have some valve damage but you never know. Good idea getting a compression test that is going to tell you what you have to get done first. Good luck and keep us updated.

[zonianbrat]

And I am sure somebody here is going to chime in soon with more possibly better advice.

[Slick]

the scenario is entirely possible. no valve damage? highly unlikely when you said you and a friend cranked her over several times after the incident happed.... that is one of the major causes of valve damage...

as above. mechanic who did it before is responsible, but this is NOT a perfect world.

as for replacement engines? ebay. JDM seem to be popular, and i do believe DJ Dank is still on the big island.... maybe he knows someone?

A compression test is a GOOD thing. then go from there. Check to see if there are any local junk yards around, and if they have any pathys.

talk to some "natives" of hawaii and ask around if they can recommend anyone to do the work... if the same name pops up mroe than 3 times, you're probably onto a winner.

good luck with all of this, and keep us updated. sorry to hear of your pathy's illness :sniff: glad you're not giving up on her yet!

[rennwerkes]

Whew! Sorry to hear about what has happened.

At the very least, see if the shop that did the work will cover parts cost.

The Big Island has tons of shops that'll work on trucks since folks do alot of four wheeling. I'd stay away from the stealer! Ask some of the folks you meet for some advice. Most will be very friendly.

One bit of advice, find some good phosphate free antifreeze to put in, don't use the junk cheap stuff. Your alloy parts in the engine will thank you.

[94 Pathy Gary]

I personally can't see how the water pump and timing belt are related beyond the fact that the water pump lives behind the timing belt cover.

 

IOW, a seized water pump should not, under any circumstances, cause a timing belt failure. (A possible exception being that the water pump could leak antifreeze on the timing belt for an extended period of time, thus theoretically causing it to break down)

 

A seized water pump would, though, cause a broken/burned fan belt and an extremely rapid rise in engine temp: You should have noticed that long before the engine quit.

 

If the timing belt is indeed toast, my money is on in improper installation (overtightening) or a seized tensioner/idler.

 

At any rate, the mechs there on-site will tell you what went wrong.

 

Cheers!

 

Gary

Edited August 26, 2006 by 94 Pathy Gary

[Z_Pilot]

Dam sorry to hear about your pathy. First thing is to find out what went wrong for sure. If the water pump did sieze (does not seem likely if it was just replaced but stranger things have happened) and the t-belt did break or fail then I would be on the phone with the mechanic who did the job. Hopefully you kept the reciept if so I know you are in Hawaii but still bad buisness is bad buisness they should honor their work and either refund some $$ or pay for the repairs but that is in a perfect world not too likely to happen. I think if the timing belt did break then it is more than likely you have some valve damage but you never know. Good idea getting a compression test that is going to tell you what you have to get done first. Good luck and keep us updated.

 

I should know early next week what happened. I am not ready to jump on the mechanic in NC that did the job yet. Perhaps he used a rebuilt NAPA water pump that he has had good luck with in the past...perhaps it is the idler pulley or something like that. Thanks for your contrubution.

[Z_Pilot]

the scenario is entirely possible. no valve damage? highly unlikely when you said you and a friend cranked her over several times after the incident happed.... that is one of the major causes of valve damage...

as above. mechanic who did it before is responsible, but this is NOT a perfect world.

as for replacement engines? ebay. JDM seem to be popular, and i do believe DJ Dank is still on the big island.... maybe he knows someone?

A compression test is a GOOD thing. then go from there. Check to see if there are any local junk yards around, and if they have any pathys.

talk to some "natives" of hawaii and ask around if they can recommend anyone to do the work... if the same name pops up mroe than 3 times, you're probably onto a winner.

good luck with all of this, and keep us updated. sorry to hear of your pathy's illness sniff.gif glad you're not giving up on her yet! beer.gif

 

Awww slick, I was looking for some hope with valve damage. You know, damaging the valves while cranking it did cross my mind later, but at that time we diddn't really suspect a timing belt problem. There are a couple of sources to get an engine in Hawaii, but they all have over 100k miles on them...I'll probably just have a 50k engine shipped over from the mainland.

Thanks for the reply

 

Z

[Z_Pilot]

Whew! Sorry to hear about what has happened.

At the very least, see if the shop that did the work will cover parts cost.

The Big Island has tons of shops that'll work on trucks since folks do alot of four wheeling. I'd stay away from the stealer! Ask some of the folks you meet for some advice. Most will be very friendly.

One bit of advice, find some good phosphate free antifreeze to put in, don't use the junk cheap stuff. Your alloy parts in the engine will thank you.

 

Yeah, I think I will go around to some of the 4wd shops here to ask their opinions. I don't know how many of you have been down here to the islands, but they don't just lift rigs down here....they create monster trucks

Phospahete-free antifreeze...never heard of it, but I'll look for it.

Thanks for the advice.

 

Z

[Z_Pilot]

I personally can't see how the water pump and timing belt are related beyond the fact that the water pump lives behind the timing belt cover.

 

IOW, a seized water pump should not, under any circumstances, cause a timing belt failure. (A possible exception being that the water pump could leak antifreeze on the timing belt for an extended period of time, thus theoretically causing it to break down)

 

A seized water pump would, though, cause a broken/burned fan belt and an extremely rapid rise in engine temp: You should have noticed that long before the engine quit.

 

If the timing belt is indeed toast, my money is on in improper installation (overtightening) or a seized tensioner/idler.

 

At any rate, the mechs there on-site will tell you what went wrong.

 

Cheers!

 

Gary

 

Gary-

You're probably right...I try to have a somewhat-good understanding of our engine, but I guess I assumed that the water pump was off of the timing belt because it is so far back there.

One thing that I forgot to mention is that a friend opened the radiator cap right after we broke down and the fluid was cold! ...Thus suspecting a water pump problem...then again, we only drove like 2 or 3 miles before we broke down...maybe not enough time to heat the water up....?

 

Thanks for your reply!

 

Z

[Casey.T]

Z,

Sorry to hear your in the same boat I was, only difference is that I did not change the T-Belt when I had the chance. Even though someone here highly suggested I do it.....

 

I would love to see what the"New" Belt looks like... If the Tensioner sized that would help eat the belt as well. Water pump other than leaking does not touch the t-belt.

 

I went with a JDM ($790), only problem now is that it has a nasty TAP, TAP and it took me several months to save the $$$$ out side of my normal budget. JDM has a 12 month unlimited mileage warrenty, only challenge is I did not get the Maitenance warrenty. I get to do all the work myself

 

Rebuilt Heads will run you $200 to $400, once you pull the heads you will be able to see if the valves damaged the tops of the piston. If they did even a small amount of damage to the tops of the Pistons, it will lead to bigger engine problems....

 

I would suggest pulling the Engine to pull the heads, a little more work but way easier to work on the engine... Put some Thorley's on it while your at it

 

Hook up with DJDank(James) hes been there for almost 6 months, I sure he can help you find what you need.

 

Any questions during the process please feel free to call me, I will pass on to you the favor Slick did for me

[94 Pathy Gary]

I guess I assumed that the water pump was off of the timing belt because it is so far back there.

A reasonable assumption, for sure, given the positioning of these things on our engies.

 

In this case, though, the snout of the water pump sticks out from the middle of the upper and lower timing belt covers and is driven by the crank pully via a fanbelt.

 

Here's your timing belt assembly:

 

 

And here's the water pump. The 4 studs are for a pully that is secured to the shaft with 4 nuts. The snout of the water pump sticks out from the middle area of the upper and lower timing belt covers on the picture above.

 

 

Finally, here's the tensioner and it's a bee-otch to get set properly. (You can see the 4 studs on the water pump shaft in the top-right corner) I don't think I'm going TOO far out on a limb if I suggest that, if your timing belt let go, this is the culprit:

 

 

Cheers!

 

Gary (replaced my water pump and timing belt (and all seals but didn't think do the oil pump ) last year)

Edited August 27, 2006 by 94 Pathy Gary

[Z_Pilot]

Z,

Sorry to hear your in the same boat I was, only difference is that I did not change the T-Belt when I had the chance. Even though someone here highly suggested I do it.....

 

I would love to see what the"New" Belt looks like... If the Tensioner sized that would help eat the belt as well. Water pump other than leaking does not touch the t-belt.

 

I went with a JDM ($790), only problem now is that it has a nasty TAP, TAP and it took me several months to save the $$$$ out side of my normal budget. JDM has a 12 month unlimited mileage warrenty, only challenge is I did not get the Maitenance warrenty. I get to do all the work myself judge.gif

 

Rebuilt Heads will run you $200 to $400, once you pull the heads you will be able to see if the valves damaged the tops of the piston. If they did even a small amount of damage to the tops of the Pistons, it will lead to bigger engine problems....

 

I would suggest pulling the Engine to pull the heads, a little more work but way easier to work on the engine... Put some Thorley's on it while your at it cool.gif

 

Hook up with DJDank(James) hes been there for almost 6 months, I sure he can help you find what you need.

 

Any questions during the process please feel free to call me, I will pass on to you the favor Slick did for me chair.gif

 

Casey-

 

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping to hear a "good" story concerning a JDM motor. I thought that it was the way to go. A friend of a friend explained to me that Japan has very strict emissions laws. When an engine does not pass, for some reason they pull the motor (and the Americans get them). Whether or not he is full of sh*t, I don't know. I was hoping that it was an economical and safe route to go. As far as pulling the engine to look at the heads....well, I wish I could, but the Pathy is on the other side of the Big Island...and I am not going to pay Nissan to do it.

As far as Thorleys are concerned...did that already...I guess I will have them pulled and installed on the next motor.

 

I'll PM DJDank soon...anyone know which island he is on?

 

...in the meantime, I am still waiting to hear from nissan about my fate.

 

Thanks,

 

 

Z

[Z_Pilot]

A reasonable assumption, for sure, given the positioning of these things on our engies.

 

In this case, though, the snout of the water pump sticks out from the middle of the upper and lower timing belt covers and is driven by the crank pully via a fanbelt.

 

Here's your timing belt assembly:

 

nd here's the water pump. The 4 bolt are for a pully that is secured to the shaft with 4 nuts. The snout of the water pump sticks out from the middle area of the upper and lower timing belt covers on the picture above.

 

inally, here's the tensioner and it's a bee-otch to get set properly. I don't think I'm going TOO far out on a limb if I suggest that, if your timing belt let go, this is the culprit:

 

heers!

 

Gary (replaced my water pump and timing belt (and all seals but didn't think do the oil pump blink.gif ) last year)

 

 

Gary, wow those schematics really help me out!

Now I will know to what extent the stalership may be bull@!*%ting me.

 

I like your comment about the tensioner assembly....it definately looks like the culprit...

 

 

Z

[Slick]

Awww slick, I was looking for some hope with valve damage. You know, damaging the valves while cranking it did cross my mind later, but at that time we diddn't really suspect a timing belt problem. There are a couple of sources to get an engine in Hawaii, but they all have over 100k miles on them...I'll probably just have a 50k engine shipped over from the mainland.

Thanks for the reply

 

Z

well.. the motor i got from N.O.W. had 170,000 miles and it was in better shape tham my 135,000 engine don't shy from the mileage if it has a history

 

DJD is on hawaii

Edited August 27, 2006 by Slick

[Z_Pilot]

NISSAN SERVICE CALLED BACK

 

They could not have been more unhelpful

 

THis is what they said:

 

Them: Do you want us to order the water pump, timing belt, and tensioner?

 

Me: Uhhh...it depends on if I sustained vavle damage...what did the compression test show?

 

Them: they can't run a compression test until the timing belt is replaced, they have to run the motor for a compression test.

 

Me: Really?

 

Them: Yes, just call us back if you want us to do the parts and labor....$1200 :contract:

 

 

What do I do guys? I thought you could do some type of "leak-down" compression test with a "dead" motor to get a better guess if you have valve damage...but they are saying you have to run the engine. Are there different types of compression tests?

 

What do I do?

 

>"wing-it" and hhave the t-belt replace ($1200 later) and hope that I don't have valve damage

 

or

 

> just put a JDM motor in because my morot is probably f-uped??

 

:help:

:help:

:help:

 

Z

[rennwerkes]

Find a reputable shop other than the dealer.

They're partially right, you need to turn the motor for a compression test BUT you can also do it using compressed air if I'm not mistaken.

Skip the dealer, there's got to be a private shop around that can do the work. The trick would be to find a local shop that knows what its doing. :o

The other crappy thing about your side of the island is the wealth that's coming in right now so not sure if the dealer is feeling the extra dollars so don't care about folks that want a good deal. I heard that the Kona Airport is currently experiencing the highest use by private jet in the nation. In fact, some even have to park the jets on Maui because there aren't any spots left at Kona. Now this does bring up the fact that if the State Dept. of Transportation was smart they'd increase the capacity at Kona and just charge more but that's another story.

[88pathoffroad]

Yeah, they're right. If the cams don't spin with the crank the valves don't open, therefore no compression. Damn.

[Animal]

A leak down test can be done without the belt. The valves must be closed to do this, but that can easily be done by turning the cam (if the cover is removed) or better by loosening the rocker arms (as is recommended in the FSM as part of the belt replacement). If it were me (and I couldn't do the work myself) I'd find a shop that knows more about engines than what they are able to read in a book (probably colored in the pictures as well). - my 2 cents

[unccpathfinder]

too bad ure not in charlotte anymore...i have an 87 engine ready to go never cranked it after doing intake,oil pan swap (it was a maxima motor)...i wasnt thrilled about the oil i found in the pan but i have 2 sets of heads that are good...

 

my personal experience in my 87...doing 50mph uphill and it broke i hit the clutch and tried over and over to get her to crank and called my mechanic up and he said pull the timing belt cover and i did and saw no belt...

 

so i put a new belt on it and cranked it up... it ran but ran like pure @!*%...comes to find out i was running on 4 cylinders i bent the #1 and 3 exhaust valves and # 3 intake it did nothing to the cylinders but left a lil dimple from wehre the valve hit took 3 days (napa had the wrong valve in the right box) pulled old valves put new in lapped them put the heads back on with water pump and belt and she ran like a champ (until i dropped some thing in the cylinder and it welded to the piston)

 

i would say get a belt put it on and try it out im going to say u bent a valve 95% sure of that but i will say if i didnt shatter a piston and u can turn the engine over and it doenst sound like rocks in the block ure prob ok...worst case pull the heads if it looks like @!*% then go with a new engine...if it looks alright swap valves and rebuild her...like i said i've got all kinds of spare parts and im sure slick and others do too that could go for cheap and i'd be willing to let that maxima turned pathy engine go for like $300 to get what i put in it out (gasket set the initial engine $100 which my buddy reduced from 400 for me) water pump...but i wasnt 100% confident in it not smoking but i know the last time it was ran it didnt but it sat for a year or so after that but i do plan on trying to build a stand and hook up a fuel source and coolant system to see if its going to run smoothly or not (sometime)

 

but you could at least figure out what the extent of ure damage is without spending any money (or u can pay some1 $800 like my roommate did to tell him he broke a valve spring in his grandprix which i told him without ever seeing the car and he didnt trust me and was scared to pull a valve cover)

 

but good luck and keep us informed...if you have any questions i'd be glad to try and help out

 

 

 

 

and i think i have an old T belt laying around if u want i could send it to u for postage so u can at least put it on and test but i wouldnt use it for a long term situation just b/c i dont know how old or how many miles are on it u could def use it to run a compression test

 

sent u a PM...ure ryans buddy right?

Edited August 29, 2006 by unccpathfinder

[Z_Pilot]

Find a reputable shop other than the dealer.

They're partially right, you need to turn the motor for a compression test BUT you can also do it using compressed air if I'm not mistaken.

Skip the dealer, there's got to be a private shop around that can do the work. The trick would be to find a local shop that knows what its doing. :o

The other crappy thing about your side of the island is the wealth that's coming in right now so not sure if the dealer is feeling the extra dollars so don't care about folks that want a good deal. I heard that the Kona Airport is currently experiencing the highest use by private jet in the nation. In fact, some even have to park the jets on Maui because there aren't any spots left at Kona. Now this does bring up the fact that if the State Dept. of Transportation was smart they'd increase the capacity at Kona and just charge more but that's another story.

I am new to Kona. When I first got here a couple of weeks ago, I saw N1KE (the Nike GV). You're right, there is a ramp full of Gulfstreams, Challengers, Leagacies, you name it.

 

Anyways, finding a reputable shop in a city 100 miles away in an area that you are unfamiliar with is a daunting task...not sure what I am going to do.

 

Z

[Z_Pilot]

A leak down test can be done without the belt. The valves must be closed to do this, but that can easily be done by turning the cam (if the cover is removed) or better by loosening the rocker arms (as is recommended in the FSM as part of the belt replacement). If it were me (and I couldn't do the work myself) I'd find a shop that knows more about engines than what they are able to read in a book (probably colored in the pictures as well). - my 2 cents

HaHa...I am not a mechanic, but I knew that there was a way to do a compression test without spending $1200 big ones to halfway fix a broken motor.

 

Z

[Z_Pilot]

sent u a PM...ure ryans buddy right?

 

Yes I am.

 

 

& thanks for the PM

[Z_Pilot]

Plan A:

 

I think that I am going to see what they will do for me as far as working with my NC mechanic. I recently learned that there are laws that do indeed protect me for faulty maintanence that results in disasters like this. The shop may be motivated because they will go after my NC guy for the $$ (under law) and it will help me because I won't have to pay for the whole bill.

 

Plan B:

 

Ask them to do a leak-down test or stick a boroscope in the spark plug holes.

 

Plan C:

 

If I do have valave damage...which seems to be likely, go with reman heads and not worry about replacing the whole engine...depends on cost I suppose.

 

 

 

What do you guys think about reman heads?

Where to get them?

How many labor hours to install?

 

Thanks Again!

Z

 

 

 

 

 

PS- I'll be at my "other" home in OR for the next week. It may take me a few days to get back to this thread...but I do sincerely appriciate all your contributions.

[94extreme]

is/was there oil in that thing? are you sure the dizzy isn't busted? in even 5 minutes the water should have been at least warm. hmm

 

i'd pull the heads and have a look inside first. see what the cams and valves look like. i can see the belt might have been on too tight..