Starter Woes

[Precise1]

Bear with me, electrical is my weak point.

 

Ok, starter has been cranking slowly for a few days, then quit. I switched the 6 year old 800CCA battery with a 1 year old 500CCA unit and it was exactly the same. Relay click and nothing else. After checking battery and ground wires, I beat on the starter seleniod for a bit. It started and has done so 10 times but barely started the last time...

 

I am about to measure voltage, try the jumper cable trick, 'hotwire' the seleniod, bypass the relay and interlock and everything else I have read in the last 2 hours of searching. My hunch is that it is the starter seleniod, as pounding on it made it work. What is your guess?

 

Oh, I've been collecting the information so we should get a good starter troubleshoot/rebuild How To out of this.

 

Feel free to chime in with anything I haven't mentioned.

[k9sar]

solenoid is easy to tell if it's working... when you throw 12v to it (using jumpers), it should thunk nice and solid.

[Precise1]

I agree.

It was too hot to mess with this afternoon so I did little other than re-install the battery. Tonight or tomorrow I'll start throwing current around...

But, allow me to quote your quote...

 

Pathfinder Starter Story

 

My neighbor has a ’94 Pathfinder with VG30E engine, speed control, four wheel drive, and an automatic transmission. Over the past couple of years the starting system had deteriorated to the point it was really annoying him. Turning the key to the start position would produce a reasonably loud click from the starter solenoid but the engine would not always crank. After a random number of attempts (between 1 and 10) the engine would crank and start. He replaced the battery and cleaned the terminal clamps. He said this improved but did not eliminate the situation. He then replaced the starter which, I understand, is a real “pain in the butt” job. The condition remained unchanged. At this point he invited me into the fray. I measured the voltage directly at the battery terminals, then at the clamp bolts, then at the starter positive terminal. In all three cases, it was 12 volts when the engine failed to crank and dropped to about 11 volts whenever the engine cranked (not bad, my old ’70 Ford 390 used to pull the battery down to 9 volts). To double check, I measured the voltage drop from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive terminal of the starter during cranking and found no significant voltage drop in that circuit. I repeated that test for the negative side checking from the battery negative terminal to the starter housing with the same results. That assured that there were no bad cables or connections in that part of the circuit. I then measured the voltage at the output of the starter solenoid/relay and found it to be zero when the solenoid clicked but the engine did not crank and 11 volts when it did crank. Based on my many years of experience as a DIY backyard mechanic and on the data obtained, I told my neighbor the solenoid/relay on the new starter was bad and his positive and ground cables and connections were fine. A few days later I found he had replaced the positive and negative battery cables, exchanged his new battery for a larger one and been sent home by the parts store with his tail between his legs concerning the idea that the new starter was bad. They had bench tested it and it was fine. I then bench tested it myself and also found it to apparently be working fine. I used jumper cables to connect the battery to the starter and my meter clip leads to apply 12 volts to the solenoid coil. Curious, I tested his old starter and it was also fine. At this point I was puzzled and had him reinstall the starter he wanted to keep. He put the new one back in. By now he was getting good at it. No change, it was intermittent. At this point I needed to look at my son’s Pathfinder service manual and my neighbor had a hot date so we called it a day. Tucked in the starting system pages of my son’s manual I found a disclaimer from the parts vendor who supplied his new starter (the installation of which fixed his problem) that essentially said, ‘If you install my wonderful new starter and you still have the problem, don’t blame my starter, you need to replace your inhibitor relay or fusible link.” In addition the flyer gave instructions on how to verify the problem with voltage measurements. It described sort of a backward way of doing it, but it would work. Basically you needed to measure the voltage at the “trigger” wire terminal of the starter harness with the key in the ‘start’ position and the terminal connected and it better be above 10 volts. That is the wire that delivers the energizing voltage to the starter solenoid. I dismissed the idea of a fusible link problem because everything else was working fine. Let me just say that I did not believe this claim by the parts supplier. In all of my years of fussing with such things, a nice strong click from the starter relay indicated it was getting sufficient voltage to operate. I could not envision how the solenoid could be mechanically designed such that it could throw hard enough to make a gratifying noise and extend the spur gear without performing its electrical contactor function. I called my neighbor and told him about the disclaimer I had found, the accusation it made and the location of the inhibitor relay. With nothing better to do at the moment we met in his driveway and measured the trigger wire voltage. It is a heavy single black/pink wire with a connector in line that you can get your hands on just to the rear of the battery. I probed the backside of the connecter while he operated the ignition switch. To my amazement, the voltage was between 5 and 6 volts! Getting at the inhibitor relay wires would require removal of the windshield washer tank and relay mounting screws and it was late and cold so I told him to call when he had it apart and then we could trouble shoot the circuit. A few days later he had gone ahead and replaced the relay and still had the problem. So far he had invested in a new battery, new cables, new starter, new relay, and he still the same old problem. Some people have more money than patience. He said that the relay socket looked good. The schematics suggested that the next step would be to trouble shoot at the ignition switch. From there we should be able to nail this problem down once and for all. Several cold rainy days later he had the steering column cover off, and the relay and washer tank were still laying there loose so we resumed our efforts. At the ignition switch, five wires are soldered directly to the switch terminals. The ignition switch connector (221M) is at the other end of these wires and behind the dash. I don’t do “under the dash” work anymore so I trouble shot from the solder terminals. I sorted out the five terminals with my volt meter since the wiring diagram does not give the color codes for these pigtail wires. The trigger wire is black with yellow tracer, the hot wire is white with red tracer and I didn’t care about the rest. With ignition on, the hot wire voltage was 11 volts (I think his battery was a bit run down by this time) and in the start position with the engine not cranking (the failure condition) the terminals all measured 10 volts. Under the same conditions, the input to the inhibitor relay (the black yellow wire) was less than 6 volts. At this point let me say that we are talking about the voltage that goes through the contacts of the inhibitor relay, not the voltage to the inhibitor relay coil, so the neutral switch is not involved. Using my meter leads as a jumper I established a connection directly from the solder joint on the ignition switch to the inhibitor relay contactor input. The starter system performed flawlessly ten times in a row. There is only one thing between the ignition switch solder joint and the inhibitor relay socket and that is connector 221M buried in that mess behind the dash board. Like I said, I am too old to go there. And, if we did find the connector and the bad crimp or bad contacts it would not be a trivial task to find and install new connectors. There is a real handy thin steel cover plate over a firewall hole just behind the washer tank and it is really easy to drill a 3/16 hole through it with the tank shoved aside. It is equally easy to cut and strip the black/yellow wire an inch and a half from the ignition switch and an inch and a half from the relay socket. Feeding a three foot long piece of 14 gauge stranded wire through the drilled hole and splicing it in to bypass connector 221M is a two minute job even in cold weather and solved the problem admirably. We topped off the work with a wad of duct seal around the wire to seal the newly drilled hole (bubble gum would work as well) and declared victory. Unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to disassemble the starter solenoid on the old starter so I am still wondering how that design could work mechanically while failing electrically.

 

It may not be the case? That's why I'm asking, searching, saving and hope to compile something comprehensive.

 

B

[Mr. Pickles]

Holy cow, got a headache, so I'm not reading that last bit.

 

If your battery is good (supposedly), verify battery cable terminals and clean them anyways with a terminal cleaner brush, then try to start it. If not, pull the starter and have your local shop bench-test it, usually free and just takes a sec. Then if it tests fine, maybe give it a gentle tap/smack and have it tested at another shop to verify. If that's good, move on, and start verifying voltage all the necessary points at the starter (+ and solenoid switched), as well as the plug for the solenoid switch near (behind, passenger side of the battery on mine) and throughout the ignition system. If your + and - negative cables are at all questionable visually or with voltage drop, they're a cheap and easy swap regardless at this point. You can also check at the back of the ignition switch. That's where I narrowed it down to, something between there and down at the ignition/solenoid wiring, it was a tricky b_tch on mine to figure out, that's for sure. A simple bypass from the ignition switch on down below solved my issues. I've got a write-up on here, somewhere, about 9 months- 1 year ago I believe.

 

BTW, mine had a series of symptoms that eventually were all addressed. Gunky starter due to oil spillage (resolved with a new starter and oil filter relo kit), bad connections throghout, corroded cables and wiring, bad wire circuits, etc. It was by an occassional failure of one of the above, one by one or by visual or test inspection while checking something else out, that I ended up replacing just about everything that makes my truck fire. A year now, and no problemo whatsoever. I'd highly recommend anybody with an older truck, even if its still working fine, take the time to check out your starter wiring and such. It would be nice to clean stuff up, clean off your starter (maybe even remove it to do so), replace any questionable wiring or terminals, etc. before you (or the wife!) are stranded late at night in the middle of winter, or on a trail, anything like that.

 

 

Ok, just found my old post on this from last year, with lots of good stuff and suggestions on there:

Linky to old post

Edited September 4, 2008 by Mr. Pickles

[mws]

A very key factor:

Is this a rebuilt starter or a factory Nissan?

[Precise1]

Thanks Mr P, I did read all of that during my search.

I haven't done any significant work on it yet, I've turned my efforts to buying a replacement part. Another WD21...

 

Is this a rebuilt starter or a factory Nissan?

Quite frankly, I don't know. I haven't changed it in 4 years/25k miles and the PO didn't mention anything. I seem to remember thinking it was factory Nissan when I replaced the clutch.

 

B

[Precise1]

Bad positive/ground cables/connections

I'm reasonable sure this is not the issue, but couldn't prove it in a court of law.

 

Unfortunately for this experiment, I have since bought another '95XE and have been swapping parts. The starter from the old truck will not be troubleshot, but will be removed, tested, disassembled and rebuilt (if feasable) and stored for future use (although I have a brand new starter in the new truck) so there will be no comprehensive conclusion to this poll. Sorry guys, it wasn't planned like this when I asked but I have to roll with current circumstances.

 

For any of you that care, I think it's the solenoid.... I'll post more when I take it apart.

 

B

[crazyhayseed]

I think it's the solenoid.... I'll post more when I take it apart.

 

I think you're right. I also think that you should replace everything at once.

 

Putting a new solenoid on a crappy starter is going to make for another bad solenoid in a hurry, then you back to square one.

Why not start (pun: disregard) w/ a clean slate and know that you're good for another 4 years?

 

Having it rebuilt at a starter/alternator shop will bite you in the rear as well. Been there, done that, got burned, moved to NAPA.

 

 

 

BTW: I voted for the shiney stuff.

[Tungsten]

I had the solenoid go bad a few times on the parts store junk so I went and dropped two or three franklins at the dealer and have been worry free for 5 years now!

[unccpathfinder]

Holy dead thread resurrection Batman