Major Problem....

[Slick]

I spent $1,700.. one month rebuilt 1,000 miles, and now this.... Pathy started overheating 2 days ago... checked rad and NO h2o. Filled it.. overheated AGAIN that nite. It had internally boiled away ALL the coolant.

Today... pulled rad, drained coolant into clean pan... and there was OIL floating, in with but not mixed with, with the coolant.

Checked oil.. but there's NO coolant, in the oil. :furious:

It had a brand new t'stat installed 1,000 rebuilt miles ago... new coolant..oil....belts....

I have pulled a valve cover and there seemed to be a little coolant stuck to the cover where the oil filler cap is.. but the oil in the valve covers/valves is fine.

At the same time it started eating coolant and overheating, it also suddenly starting burning oil and using more gas.

No visible signs of leaks for either, they are BOTH INTERNAL LEAKS.

I am miffed as to what the problem is.. but I do know...I am about to put a 4 sale sign on my Pathy and sell it..... :contract:

It drives perfect, no power loss... idled a bit shaky but at smooth rpm's just recently.. also.. if you touch the upper rad hose, it will burn you.. if you touch the hose/pipe running from t'stat housing.. you can leave your hand on it and not get burned, the same with heater hoses going into firewall.

Anyone have any ideas as to what is happening? I went n bought new h2o pump, rad cap and t-belt today.. but I think it's more serious than the h2o pump.....

HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[oilman]

if you say you have some coolant under the valve covers, than i think coolant is getting into the oil. why you dont see it there is because it gets boiled off and then burned off through your pcv valve.

your upper rad hose is superhot cause its full of steam. have you burped the emgine properly? start it cold with the rad cap off and the rad full. when the tstat opens it will suck coolant into the engine and the rad level will drop, fill it back up again, and put the cap back on. be sure to wear glasses when you do this hot coolant is no joke

as to the oil problem, sounds like a head gasket to me.

good luck

[94extreme]

yup, you're have some leaks somewhere... from what you said i'd prob guess head gasket especially if it's not much coolant/oil mixing... but it could be cracked/warped head or busted cylinder walls but then you'd have a lot of mixing... dump the oil and look at it.. water is heavier and will sit at the bottom... may not show up on the dipstick... you'll see some gray oil and some green splotches...

 

what was rebuilt? you mention that a couple of times...

[88pathoffroad]

Compression test it and see how it comes out.

[Slick]

Thanks guys. Kinda confirming my worst nightmares. When I "rebuilt" it 3 weeks ago, I got the broken manifold bolts out, added Thorley headers, oil filter relo kit, exhaust system, new belts (not t-belt or h2o pump.. looked brand new) new intake plentum gasket (all this was done motor out) and a few other non mechanical things.

I do remember now that my bf's bro drilled too far and I think he might have hit a water jacket on PS closest to firewall while trying to drill out the hole (we had to make it bigger as the old stud welded itsself to the aluminum) could his doing that cause this problem??.

The Pathy has not lost any power at all, still runs smooth, no extra noises, and starts up no problems. Haven't noticed any smoke either.

I was going to test a few things today (rad in, heat up, pull plugs-check for h2o coming out of holes)... the new belts were a bit loose too....could that and a bad rad cap cause some of the porblems?? Or am I grasping at simple cure straws??

I am really disenchanted and heart broken with this situation, after all my hard work and $$already invested less than 1,000 miles ago. Why now?? why not 1,000 miles ago when I first put it back together?? That's what I don't understand....

I will try some of your suggestions... and if you have anymore ideas in teh meantime.. I am allllll ears. Thanks!!

Could it be the PVC valve causing this???

Edited April 3, 2005 by Slick

[Slick]

your upper rad hose is superhot cause its full of steam. have you burped the emgine properly? start it cold with the rad cap off and the rad full. when the tstat opens it will suck coolant into the engine and the rad level will drop, fill it back up again, and put the cap back on. be sure to wear glasses when you do this hot coolant is no joke

Yes, we tried the "burping" trick yesterday.. t'stat is working fine.. but h2o pump is not moving the water.....

[Slick]

So. Pulled plugs. 1,3 & 5 are ok. 2 & 4 (especially 2) have oil and water all over them.

When we pulled the belts...just for S & G turned the h2o pump..and it spewed water out of the t-stat housing.....

NOW. bf's bro suggested some bards leak (??? sp) for aluminum and drive the sucker..now..I am not really for "quick fixes"..I like to do the job right... but right now I am almost willing to try anything that doesn't cost me another $2,000.... any thoughts on this?

[Precise1]

Hey Slick, truely sorry to hear about this issue... I'll be honest, it doesn't sound good. Before anything though, you have to identify the problem and then the cause before proceding.

"it started eating coolant and overheating, it also suddenly starting burning oil and using more gas. Sounds like head gasket to me... The compression check as 88 suggested should be done... it will allow you to "map" the motor and give you an idea of the affected cylinders (looking for water doesn't tell all)

"if you touch the upper rad hose, it will burn you.. if you touch the hose/pipe running from t'stat housing.. you can leave your hand on it and not get burned, the same with heater hoses going into firewall" This tells me that you don't have good circulation, or very little. It could be a faulty T-stat, I have heard of that before.... Could be that it is blocking the flow, and allowed your motor to overheat, taking out the head gasket... IF that is the case, you may have a claim against the manufacturer.

Your BF's bro's suggestion of "stop leak" and drive it is not a good idea in my book; dont drive it at all until you get things figured out. No point in ruining the heads (hopefully they are not). Are the 'bad' cylinders where the BF's bro drilled ? I'm guessing not, but he might have done more harm than good.

Again, compression check it, and dont drive it like it is. I know none of us are rich, but you may want to consider buying a "rising sun" 30K mile or junkyard/crashed pathy motor to drop in the truck. You can change all your goodies over and have it running in no time (your previous experience), then figure what is up with the old motor, and if it is fixable, then you can sell it... I'm sure that wouldn''t be hard... Compression check the motor before going any farther !! Hope I'm helping; if there is anything I can do, just ask !

 

Bernard

[Slick]

OK. Drained all the oil out, and there was not so much as a spot of water in the oil. PHEW.

went down, bought good compression tester, and here are the results. Bear in mind, there was no oil in the truck, and I did not get it to working temp b 4 we did this test. (already took all the belts off in prep for new h2o pump and t-belt)

#1 151

#2 151

#3 181

#4 152

#5 182

#6 181

We pulled the PVC valve, and it was shot.... the thingy (I know..what's it called inside) was just rattling around inside the valve. It was the stock/factory PVC valve. That could easily cause the problem I saw.

When we blew into the plug holes, nothing but oil came out.

Checked the plug colors against a color chart, and all is good.

so, end result? I think the PVC valve was causing my problems.... the fact that the oil had NOT MIXED with the coolant, and, there was NO WATER in the oil..leads me to believe that the PVC valve was the culprit. If anyone thinks different, please let me know!! Thanks for all your help and advice guys!

[lgranch]

Sorry to inform you but the check ball in the PCv valve is suppose to rattle around when you shake it. It is when you don't hear a rattle that you know something is bad.

 

You said you blew air into the plug holes and nothing but oil came out. That is bad. Nothing is suppose to come out of the plug holes at all. All of the cylinders should be within 10% of each other. You clearly have to different sets of compression numbers. The problem is that the sets do not make sense to me. If it was one bank of cylinders vs the other then I'd say you had a bad head gasket, but your numbers are mixed.

 

Remember when it comes to internal leaks. Oil pressure is 60PSI. water pressure is 15PSI. Oil will always go to the water. Seldom will water go to the oil. Water goes to the oil with an internal leak when you shut down the engine. The oil pressure stops immediately while the water pressure remains until the engine cools.

 

You have not gievn enough info in your thread for me to guess what is happening. I obviouslly have concern about the drillin gof the manifold bolts, but was the head off the truck when this was done?? There is little value in telling you what you should have done now, so I will not.

 

I doubt that this is something major. I'll give you a head if you need it. All you would have to do pay postage. What I need to know is when you said you rebuilt the motor, what did you actually do. When I rebuild a VG30, the block is bare, cylinders are over bored, the main bearings are line bored if required, new pistons, rings, rods, bearings, water pump, gaskets, etc. I do not think this is what you mean.

 

For others on the forum, lets talk this out. We can fix you up and cost you minimal $, but there is going to be a time cost.

[Slick]

OK. I should refrase what came out when we blew into the plug holes. It was wet carbon (looked like) but nothing else.

Yes, I figured that out about the PVC valve..LOL..got a new one today...

I found ym piece of paper with the compression numbers..I had lost it when posting yesterday.

#1 @ 181

#2 @ 151

#3 @ 152

#4 @ 151

#5 @ 181

#6 @ 178

When doing the compression test..I had NO OIL AND THE MOTOR WAS COLD.

(I had already drained oil...taken belts off, etc) So I did a cold no oil compression test.

The EXACT problems I was having (2 days before I stopped driving the Pathy) were as follows.

Drove 4 miles, over that 4 miles temp gauge (now known to be working just fine) went up and down as I accelerated/decelerated (went up under acceleration and continuous gas pedal pressure and went down a bit when gas off). Now, up and down meaning from working temp (just below mid mark) and just under the first white overheating line.

Got to the house and checked radiator. No water what-so-ever, and it had also used a quart of oil (in 3 weeks/1,000 miles), and I had noticed in the 3 days prior to this happening the fact the Pathy was suddenly getting crap gas mileage.

That night, made sure she had water, and oil, drove 4 miles and sat in drive through for 15 mins, (she had been fine driving in town all day) and noticed temp hit white overheat line. I turned her off and let her sit til I had to move.

Got her home, and again, no water. Oil was fine.

Filled her up with water, and went to bed.

Checked water next morning before I left, drove 4 miles, with temp gauge going "up and down" again, when I got to the house, she was overheating (almost) and we pulled the rad cap. She still had water, but it was boiling hot.

We tried to "burp" her, few bubbles came out, but water was NOT circulating. It was dead still while in the radiator.

We put the rad cap back on and did the upper rad hose squeeze test. (you could barely touch it from the heat) No pressure after release. When I grabbed the hose/pipe coming from the t'stat housing, you could hold it. It was "cold", as were the heater hoses going into the firewall.

I stopped driving the Pathy that day. (Friday)

OK. What I did when I did the motor out. Yes, I took the motor out, there would have been noooo way to fix the 4 broken studs with motor in. I removed broken manifold studs, installed Thorley's, Perma Cool oil filter relocation kit, new exhaust, t'stat, intake plentum gasket, plug wires, new belts, clutch, rear main seal, took oil pan off, and a few other minor things.

The heads looked new from when the motor had been removed previously with old owner, and it was obvious there had been a lot of work done to the motor. (looked rebuilt).

Umm... does that help any??

we found NO water in the oil what-so-ever, (both after draining oil and checking oil in valves covers) and very little oil floating on the top of the coolant when drained.

I am miffed..really. if it would smoke or run like crap then I would suspect the head gasket?? It was running PERFECT when this all happened. No smoking, no power loss.... just higher fuel consumtion a little bit.

Any ideas igranch?? I would love to pick your brain. I have pics of the plugs too if you want a peek at them. I marked which number they were, so I know where they came from. THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!! :help:

Edited April 4, 2005 by Slick

[lgranch]

well you do have an interesting problem. I am going to assume that since you pulled the motor that you did NOT remove the heads. Your statement that everything was fine before you pulled the motor tell me that a head gasket problem is not likely.

 

The telling fact in this problem is that you are loosing coolant all the time. 4 miles should barely warm the engine up, instead you overheat and loose coolant.

 

To be very clear--- This all happened after you pulled the motor or did this happen before you touched anything?

 

Someplace you have a short circuit in your cooling system. It is very probable that this is a cylinder wall crack or a head crack. There is wear in your 2,3,& 4 cylinders as shown by the compression check, but the cylinders are not in a pattern that I would guess is related.

 

The greatest probability is that one of the heads is bad. Did all the plugs look the same or did one or 2 look like they were steam cleaned? Do you see any vapor out the tailpipe? If there was a crack in a cylinder wall to let oil in the water, then the water would look brown and foamy. You do not report that. The water can only go 2 places - leak out on the ground as a stream. or out the tailpipe and vapor.

 

I think the heads need to be pressure tested. There are not many places that can do this any more. Most places just replace the heads since rebuilt heads are so cheap.

 

Look for the vapor or steam cleaned plugs first.

[94extreme]

could be warped heads, 3 and 4 are in the middle of the motor and this thing has been overheated a few times now.. 2 is also pretty well cradeled by ac so that would also help getting it hot...

[k9sar]

150's is a bit low for compression but not disturbing, especially since you said you had already drained the oil. If you really want to see if it's ring-wear and low due to being dry, dump a tablespoon or so of oil in through the sparkplug hole. Replace the plug (or equivalent) and crank it a couple times to get the oil distributed into the rings. Then recheck the compression. It SHOULD go up into the 170's if it were due to dryness. Min compression in a VG30 is 128, normal is 173. There should not be a difference between cylinders of greater than 14psi (which you have). If pressure does not come up by adding oil, you may have a sticking, worn or improperly seating valve. Once you get a new set of readings, if there are adjacent cylinders (like 2 and 4) with low compression, you're now talking a breech in the head gasket.

[Slick]

The water/coolant looked fine. Just a bit of oil floating on top when drained. No sludge or mixing.

There was still plenty of h2o in the radiator and block the second day when I drove it the 4 miles.

The day before that I had driven around town for a few miles worth, then 2 miles to McDonalds and sat for 15 mins when she overheated. I drove her the remaining 2 miles home, and filled the rad and left her for the night.

When I left the "final" morning, I made sure there was plenty of h2o, and when I got the 4 freeway miles to the house, she still had water in the rad & block.

I am in the process of replacing the h2o pump, t-belt oil and coolant. I will let y'all know what happens. I bought new spark plugs (none of the old ones looked "steam cleaned") and will be doing a compression test with oil water and heat. I will post results of tests.

Thanks guys, I REALLY REALLY appreciate the input.

OH! NO, the only problems I had b 4 the motor pull were the broken studs.

BUT!!!! The t'stat the old owner had installed, they forced it in and had dented it. It was inoperable.....

No, I did not take the new looking heads off when I pulled the motor.

Hope this info helps.

Attached are pics of the spark plugs I took out... (yes..I broke one..LOL)

Any ideas are greatly appreciated. This is one problem I have NEVER come across...

 

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/pathy4x4/alb...del%3as,4%3af,0

 

There are 4 or 5 pics of the plugs.

[Precise1]

I can't tell much from the plug picts (nothing jumps out at me) but I can tell you have an oily motor. It IS possible that the little bit of oil on top of the coolant after drain is just from contamination while draining.

k9sar is right about adding oil for the compression check, that is the way I learned to do it. The rings need the oil to seal, and besides an incorrect pressure reading, other components may be leaking above the 'dry cylinder' pressure reading, adding to the confusion.

No suprise here that the T-stat was damaged, you discription pointed to it. Your up,down,up,down temp gauge could have been from air, surging, or amounts of 'cool' water being forced past the T-stat by pressure. Don't forget to examine the radiator cap; if it is weak or the seal damaged it will allow blowby when hot FAR below the 15 PSI it should be. Also remember, a pin hole or bad seal on a hose will allow water to escape fairly rapidly under pressure but not leak in the driveway or steam excessively at a stoplight. Sounds like you are on the right track and it may not be the heads, but ASSUME NOTHING !!! Doubt and check every possibility... It'll be worth the effort in the long run.

 

Bernard

[Slick]

Yeah, I am running every option. The bad t'stat was discovered when I pulled the motor. I put a new t'stat in when I put the motor back in.

I bought a new rad cap, plugs, h2o pump, t-belt and gaskets yesterday.

We installed the h2o pump and t-belt today, I just have to put things back together and do some more tests.

All the hoses are new, I replaced any hose that looked less than new when I pulled the motor. I checked all hoses before replacing them back on the motor. I also checked all the connections and hoses that I could see yesterday in case they came off or damaged. No problems there.

I also bought a new PVC valve which I will install.

We are having a ahrd time making sure the t-belt is correct. we followed the destructions from the Nissan manual..... so hopefully we got it right. The marks that DID line up (belt to cam lines) when installed @ TDC now do not sit on the marks of the cam marks..is that normal? (this is after we turned the motor 3 times and back to TDC)

so, hopefully I will have good news and a running Pathy by tomorrow??? or I will be drunk and filling in a for sale sign..... (j/k)

-study-

[oilman]

rad caps come in different pressure ratings, did you get the right one?

so where is the coolant going?

you dont see any leaks, or smell any coolant? what happens if you start it and let it run without driving will the coolant disappear?

if you cant smell it and its not leaking out on the ground, id think it must be burning off in the exhaust. so ids there steam there?

not to insult you, but you did put the tstat in correctly, and not backwards right. and you are using the right mix of coolant and water???

Edited April 6, 2005 by oilman

[88pathoffroad]

T-belt lines won't line up after three rotations, it'll take one more to be back on line where it was when you put it on. That's normal.

[k9sar]

I just want to break from the discussion for one post and state that I'm really impressed by Slick. It's not often that you find a chick (not intended to be derogatory) that can or is willing to get their hands dirty like this. Now, if I can just get my wife to let me know when her van starts making horrible noises rather than let me find out on the rare occasion when I drive it....

Edited April 6, 2005 by k9sar

[Slick]

Thank you k9.. I really appreciate the props..yes.. I have been a "motorhead" for a looooong time. I have always been "into" cars and trcuks, and when I started racing in England, I was single..so I had to figure it out right quick.. and I have always loved a good excuse to get my hands dirty!

I have been single a looong time (til I met Dave, my current and hopefully 4ever love) 11 months ago, so I had me, myself and I to rely on. I am selfish and don't trust other people to work on my "babies"..so I had one option.. LEARN. And I do really enjoy it..when it's not a problem I just can't seem to figure out like this.

Oh, and yes, I installed the t-stat correctly, and there was condensation in the new exhaust pipe when I started it to back it into the garage.

I had the right mixture, maybe slightly rich on the coolant.

This situation couldn't have just been a PITA..no..while I am gently screwing in the lower t-belt cover screws, the one that goes into the h2o pump bolt decided to snap off!!!!!! :X :furious: ok we thought, Dave tried to drill it out, while using the easy out.. the easy out snapped off in the bolt too!! :furious:

So, now that is holding the game up for another day until I can get the replacement bolt for the h2o pump/cover....one thing after another.... I am beginning to threaten my Pathy with a BIG 4 SALE sign......

Thanks again for the props.. and don't forget..when the heavy stuff had to be done..Dave leant a hand! (and when I couldn't figure something out...even when reading the manual) But I like to do most of the work when I can.

Edited April 6, 2005 by Slick

[Slick]

sssh Thought about what you said about the t'stat oilman.... Dave put it in.. so I went outside, manual in hand, and did some investigating.

I played with the t'stat..looked in the book... and WHAMMO. Reality hit me. Ya see, my bf is a Chevy man..not used to this anal retentive Jap stuff.... so I played, and when he got home, I asked him to show me how he installed the t'stat. Sure nuff, he just plonked 'er in there, and turned. SO! that could have casued some vapor lock, which would account for the slight oil in coolant, but not vise versa! once I get my new h2o pump bolt, covers and belts back on.. I will do a warm engine compression test..and hope the problem is solved! (had to order the bolt from Nissan.. another 45 down the can!) Could I be getting closer to the cure??? we shall see!

Edited April 7, 2005 by Slick

[Precise1]

Just for what it is worth, I never use the "easy out" spiral bolt extractors... I've snapped more of them off than have ever been successful with, and I do this type of stuff for a living ! I think the spiral is exagerated and the material is crap and/or the hardness is excessive. There is no feel from torquing to snapping. The only broken bolt remover I will use is the square tapered ones with the left hand turn flute/bite. Before I use a bolt extractor, I core drill it with a left hand (ccw) drill deep and slow. A lot of the time the reduced pressure from the core being gone and the 'unscrewing' torque, not to mention heat and vibration will suddenly back the piece out. If the drill is unsuccessful, then I will employ a 130 degree left hand carbide spade drill of my own design to further the core drilling/removal. I make my own and have given to friends to use, who after using them, refuse to give them back, lol. Then I will use a bolt remover until I can see if it is not working, and resume the ccw drilling. This works almost flawlessly; I have removed bolts that come out looking like helicoils without damage to the threads... Reforming threads is another chapter... Honestly, I have tapped more holes than most people have ever seen, and removed more bolts than most have overtorqued.

 

Bernard

[tacoman]

There is a bleeder near the back of the engine on the top on the driver side. It is not on the block (its on some kind of box) and it does not look like a bleeder. I believe it is a 10mm hex head. At first glance it does not look like the box has coolant circulating. It is impossible to bleed the system if you don't use the bleeder. That engine will trap a lot of air. The bleeder should show up in the manual. Also fill with the heater on.

 

Does the heater work? If not its a sign of low coolant or no flow.

 

The moisture under the valve covers is probably condensation.

 

If you can find one, put a pump pressure gage on the radiator. Stant makes one that replaces the radiator cap. They are kind of expensive and I think you will need a adaptor for the Nissan. Start the engine if the needle jumps its leaking exhaust into the coolant. Pump the pressure up when it is not running (hot and cold). It should hold pressure for 20 min. Check for external leakage, leakage into the cylinder or crankcase. If it is a bad leak it will move a lot of coolant prior to losing pressure. It should be obvious where it is going (like filling up a cylinder).

 

Plugs look good.

 

Tacoman

[lgranch]

Reasonable amount of talent showing here. Slick I think that you are getting some pretty good advise. I was a bit surprised that the t'stat could have been installed wrong, but I guess now that I know a Chevy guy did it then.......

 

I have been trying to figure out which bolt you snapped off and how Nissan could charge 45 for a new one. Most of the bolts that I can think of in that area are small metric grade 5.5 or 8 s that cost 50 cents at the local hardware. So I am a bit confused.

 

Now for a subject change. Precise1 how about a picture of your carbide spade drill. I do not think I am in a position to "make my own" but I'd like to see what you are refering to. Yes spiral bolt extrators only work sometimes and most of the time I agree they break off. I have some frame bolts that I am going to be working on soon. I know that they will be trouble. Heat is not always possible without lighting the entire truck up.