2003 QX4 4WD Steering Noise

[OrthoDoc]

First post here, but not my first foray into forums or off road vehicles. I'm a Jeep guy (yikes!), but I've always liked the R50 QX4's and Pathy's. I found a one-owner 2003 with only 77K miles in excellent shape several months ago and decided it was time for me to own one! I plan on turning my rig into an overland type vehicle. Thanks in advance for any expertise you can offer me on this topic, as I haven't been able to find much on it.

 

My Q makes some serious groaning noises when steering intermittently. It only does it when the engine is warmed up, and even then not every time. I hear it most at slow speeds, but I think it may be happening at speed, too -- just can't hear it over road noise. It's certainly not the typical "hydraulic pump low on fluid sound" of power steering pump woes I've dealt with in other vehicles.

 

Anyone else experience similar issues and know what this may be? I tried to get a (non-helpful) picture of the Q on here, but couldn't figure out how to upload. It's in my profile pic.

 

[Rebelord]

Check fluid. May be low. Also may need to be changed. Look up here how to change it to tranny fluid.

 

Sent from fat fingers on S6

[OrthoDoc]

Aight -- I'll give that a try and see if it doesn't help. Guess that's the obvious first place to start anyway!

[hawairish]

I had a similar issue on another vehicle...ended up being a loose belt. Wasn't squealing on the pulley as I might've expected, but occasionally stopped turning the PS pump which caused the groans.

[CDN_S4]

I'd recommend cleaning and lubricating all pullies on the drive belt. I had a squeal on start up, I know not the same, but taking apart the pullies and cleaning them made it go away.

[OrthoDoc]

Funny that 2 of you mention squeal on startup -- I've got a belt that squeaks usually in the mornings that I'm planning to change. It'd be great if that fixed both of my problems! I went ahead and flushed out the power steering fluid with new fluid. I'm still getting the groan.

 

One thing that makes me think that it's not the PS pump is that it the noise is completely quiet when turning the wheels side to side when the Q is stopped. It has to be rolling to make the noise, but only when the wheel is turned in some way, not when going straight.

Edited July 17, 2015 by OrthoDoc

[jyeager]

Funny that 2 of you mention squeal on startup -- I've got a belt that squeaks usually in the mornings that I'm planning to change. It'd be great if that fixed both of my problems! I went ahead and flushed out the power steering fluid with new fluid. I'm still getting the groan.

 

One thing that makes me think that it's not the PS pump is that it the noise is completely quiet when turning the wheels side to side when the Q is stopped. It has to be rolling to make the noise, but only when the wheel is turned in some way, not when going straight.

 

Try lifting your front end and turning the steering wheel all the way to the side where you hear the noise (or hear it most). Then turn both wheels by hand and check for binding or grinding.

 

Since you have to be moving (and you don't think it's the power steering pump), then it's got to be moving parts (as in parts that turn as you roll) and parts that move when you steer.

 

Does the noise only occur while the steering wheel is actively turning? Then I would look at your lower ball-joint and your strut bearing.

If I happens while rolling forward even after you have turned the wheel and then hold it in place, I would check the wheel bearings and cv axles.

[OrthoDoc]

So, after lots of searching for this problem and listening, I was finally able to re-create the sound in my garage with the Q on jack stands. It is coming from the rear end somewhere. To make the sound happen, I can jack up one rear tire at a time and spin it to make the sound. If I jack up both tires and allow them to spin freely (in opposite directions), the sound goes away. I think the reason it was making the sound only when I turn was because the tires were turning at different speeds. Both rear tires make the same noise when spun.

 

It almost sounds like the brakes are slightly engaged, but that wouldn't make sense because the sound wouldn't go away when both tires were jacked up if that were the cause. The diff is full to the fill hole with clear-ish benign looking gear oil. Could this be an LSD issue? I do have the "cold weather" package that came with the LSD in the rear. The sound seems like it's coming from the hub I am spinning when doing so, but I don't know... I've got an appointment with a mechanic Friday. This is my wife's DD currently, and she's getting impatient with me!

 

Thanks again for all the suggestions given above and any more advice someone may have.

[hawairish]

Hope I'm following your diagnoses correctly. Taking another stab...

 

I think it might be a u-joint, pinion flange, or something else related to the rotation of the rear driveshaft. I'm assuming your tests are with the transmission in neutral, otherwise you wouldn't be able to spin one tire off the ground while the other was stationary.

 

Am I putting your diagnoses together correctly?

• One tire off the ground rotating, either direction, other tire stationary: driveshaft rotates = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at same speed, same direction: driveshaft rotates = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at different speeds, same direction: driveshaft rotates a little = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at same speed, opposite directions: driveshaft doesn't rotate = no noise

If so, I would disconnect the driveshaft from the rear diff and retry the tests. If the noise subsides, check the u-joints on the driveshaft. You should be able to move them by hand in multiple directions. Any play or jerky spots may be the culprit. May need to grease or replace.

 

If the noise persists with the driveshaft disconnected, check the pinion flange on the diff...it's the brassy-looking cover behind the driveshaft flange that rotates when the pinion rotates. Sometimes if it's not seated correctly, it rubs against the diff housing. Just takes a mallet and something to gently persuade the flange to adjust a little (piece of wood, punch/drift, pry bar, bolt, etc.) If that's not it, hopefully it's not the pinion bearing.

 

Couple other notes:

1. If your tires spin in opposite directions when both off the ground, you don't have the LSD.
2. Suppose I wouldn't rule out the brakes being engaged. You can rotate the adjuster for the shoes if you suspect that. Might also check the handbrake to make sure it's fully disengaged (not just the handle, but the cable tension). Is it easy or difficult to remove the brake drums?

[OrthoDoc]

 

Hope I'm following your diagnoses correctly. Taking another stab...

 

I think it might be a u-joint, pinion flange, or something else related to the rotation of the rear driveshaft. I'm assuming your tests are with the transmission in neutral, otherwise you wouldn't be able to spin one tire off the ground while the other was stationary.

 

Am I putting your diagnoses together correctly?

• One tire off the ground rotating, either direction, other tire stationary: driveshaft rotates = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at same speed, same direction: driveshaft rotates = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at different speeds, same direction: driveshaft rotates a little = noise
• Both tires off the ground rotating at same speed, opposite directions: driveshaft doesn't rotate = no noise

If so, I would disconnect the driveshaft from the rear diff and retry the tests. If the noise subsides, check the u-joints on the driveshaft. You should be able to move them by hand in multiple directions. Any play or jerky spots may be the culprit. May need to grease or replace.

 

If the noise persists with the driveshaft disconnected, check the pinion flange on the diff...it's the brassy-looking cover behind the driveshaft flange that rotates when the pinion rotates. Sometimes if it's not seated correctly, it rubs against the diff housing. Just takes a mallet and something to gently persuade the flange to adjust a little (piece of wood, punch/drift, pry bar, bolt, etc.) If that's not it, hopefully it's not the pinion bearing.

 

Couple other notes:

1. If your tires spin in opposite directions when both off the ground, you don't have the LSD.
2. Suppose I wouldn't rule out the brakes being engaged. You can rotate the adjuster for the shoes if you suspect that. Might also check the handbrake to make sure it's fully disengaged (not just the handle, but the cable tension). Is it easy or difficult to remove the brake drums?

 

 

So, you'd probably be right if I was better in my explanation/ my attention to detail. I guess I assumed the wheels were spinning in opposite directions. They do spin the same direction when both are off the ground, hence the LSD.

 

After reading on this and other forums about a few different folks having similar problems, I decided the LSD was a highly likely culprit. I picked up some LSD additive from AutoZone, drained out ~7oz of fluid in the rear diff, then added the 7oz of additive. This seems to have fixed the issue (and for only $9!!). If it comes back, I'll update the post, but the problem seems to have been solved at this point.

[hawairish]

 

So, you'd probably be right if I was better in my explanation/ my attention to detail. I guess I assumed the wheels were spinning in opposite directions. They do spin the same direction when both are off the ground, hence the LSD.

 

After reading on this and other forums about a few different folks having similar problems, I decided the LSD was a highly likely culprit. I picked up some LSD additive from AutoZone, drained out ~7oz of fluid in the rear diff, then added the 7oz of additive. This seems to have fixed the issue (and for only $9!!). If it comes back, I'll update the post, but the problem seems to have been solved at this point.

 

Well, there's that too. But yes, that would've made a good difference in my diagnosis, but I had keyed off the "opposite direction" part and presumed no LSD, since this observation would be pretty easy to make (vs. assuming it was included in a package, of course).

 

So, seeing as you do in fact have the LSD, turning the steering wheel (and thus making a turn) would cause the outer tire to turn faster and the lack of an additive would induce noise. You wouldn't hear it at higher speeds because you're less likely to be turning. It's all coming together now!

 

You might've been better off replacing all the fluid with gear oil for LSDs (it includes the additive), just to be sure it got a thorough flush. But glad you got it sorted...before the wifey gave a beatdown, of course.

[OrthoDoc]

Yeah -- when I found myself draining a little bit of the gear oil to fit in the additive, I thought to myself how I was stupid to not just change all the gear oil out. That'll be my next option if this fails before I bust open the rear diff...