Tungsten Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Those who dealt with the steering before, know the problem with the factory idler arm. There is a huge design flaw where its support is inadequate. There are a couple of solutions I have found online and the purpose of this thread is just to gather some opinions on it. Solution 1: Replace the idler arm with a different style idler arm. This part can be bought on RockAuto for about $60 and the part number is K9500, it is also known as the "Problem Solver" part. Do not get the K9500 at NAPA because that's a factory part number. For those of you thinking that it's a tie rod design, it's not. The part is described as having a double tapered bearing. For more information click here. Some people (and check this thread too) used this one before and reported good results with it. However, members of this board advise against using it saying that it doesn't last long and that the center link hits the frame when it wears out. Solution 2: Add a brace to the idler arm. Make one locally or buy one from Calmini for about $40 or from 4x4parts (aka AC or Automotive Customizers) for about $30. Keep in mind that the brace will not prevent minor movement within the arm so it will wear out even when it's braced. To patch that potential problem, you need a greasable idler arm (also see center link option at the bottom of this post). However, most people that have used a brace still agree that it is a good solution. If your idler arm does have a zerk fitting, beware of using the Calmini brace because it may not work and hit the zerk. In that case, use one from 4x4parts instead. Consider this option or this option as well, a complete steering enhancement package. Calmini brace. 4x4parts brace. Custom made brace, shown as WIP (work-in-progress). Thanks to Nefarious for this picture. Solution 3: Use a Calmini system with their own proprietary idler arm. Not sure if you can get it separately from the system or if it will even work without their proprietary system. The entire system is expensive, about $630 if you want to go that route. The only real issue with this system is that it directly connects the idler and pitman arms to the tie rods, which works but has the potential to either bend the tie rods or break the steering box. That idler arm bushing had its problem days as well (on older blue arms, not zinc plated) because of how it is directly connected. No problems, other than the idler arm bushing issue, were reported yet. Solution 4: Dual steering box mod. This mod completely replaces the idler arm with a manual steering box. Personally, I like the brace. As an option you can change your center link to this Grassroots 4x4 to eliminate the twisting of the link on the idler arm. Members that have gone down this road said that this helps. Alternatively, you can convert your system to a 2wd link setup (thread pending). My word of warning on using the Grassroots 4x4 link is that it's really just another patch created with some welding fab and welding changes the tensile strength properties in certain areas so it might cause the link to break somewhere either at the weld or close to the weld. However, nobody reported anything like that EVER happening because the welding is properly done so it should be safe to use. Keep in mind that it does not change the dog bone style setup so any problems resulting from the design will still be there but just not as bad. EDIT: Post updated. Edited February 18, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmoore4512 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I am currently running the dummy box mod and it eliminated my issues with the idler arm..... I was running a Calmini idler arm brace, but it was short lived due to the arms wearing out, even in the brace... Never seen the Calmini complete system up close and personal, however I am not a fan of the brass bushing design, due to having experience in machine work/maintenance and replacing them regularly. That last idler arm is BEEFY. I like the looks of it, and if I had not already went through the trouble of doing the dual box mod, I would have sprung on that. Good topic Tung, I am curious to see how everyone chimes in... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have an IAB similar to the calmini one but I still bent my idler arm in moab...I have welded a new plate in to held resolve this till my SAS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5523Pathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Im just gonna ring in here and say that my rig has been lifted, has over 100,000 post lift(212,xxx overall) and i have nver had a idler arm issue. I have a brace installed with my A/C lift. You are gonna have to be a bit more specific to the "design flaw" you speak of. People usually have issue when they have cranked thier tbars and did nothing to support it(call it the effects of lifting a IFS vehicle). Oh, and your forgot to add the Grassroots Center Link as a option(because it does help. Ask those who have installed one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I have no lift, stock suspension, and my idler arm is toast (bad bushing making it bend). The design flaw in the idler arm is that it is only supported from one side. It's like a bolt half screwed in that's being pulled on the head all the time. I don't even see how putting more stress on the arm with the Grassroots link can possibly solve the problem. I call BS on that. Edited February 18, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5523Pathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 There is not more stress on the idler arm from the GR link. The problem is the balljoints loosen up over time and you get get play. Play allows thing to get out of a "correct" angle and things bend. the GR link has welded in bushings that stop this movement. I would challeng any one to post up a unmodified factory center link with good balljoints, showing it bent and how they bent it. Too many people around here who actually go off road, and have so for years, who have figured out the problem and addressed it. You are just beating a dead horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Anyway the issue in this thread is not about the center link but only related to the idler arm itself. I heard that you have to drill out the Pitman and Idler arms to even use that center link. Is that true? Besides that, I can name you a few reasons why I would never get a Grassroots 4x4 center link but I won't do it in this thread because of a potential flame war and my reputation sinking even further. You said your idler arm was braced and it was fine while tory said it was braced and even wore out in the brace. Next! Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You are just beating a dead horse. and your surprised why? I have the same IAB as in uncc's last pic (only mines pink unsuprisngly) which I got used from another member here, am lifted and run 32s half the year and normally 31s on 10" wide wheels the other half. still have the same Idler with no bend or play since I got the truck. and that 'problem solver' just looks like a junk design out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahardb0dy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I have always liked Moog parts and will use them given the choice over anything else. This was my ghetto idler arm brace I had on my hardbody running 35's than 33's and never had a problem with it: I know it didn't prevent the "arm" from bending, but I had previous problems bending the shaft the "arm" pivots on so for that it worked Edited February 17, 2012 by ahardb0dy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 and that 'problem solver' just looks like a junk design out of the box. Why? Have you even tried it? Looks can be deceiving. I didn't like it at first either but from what I read it's definitely not what I thought it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 remember, I work on cars as well as tow them. I see that design fail hand over fist from the design of factory style ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) OK but did you see it fail specifically on Nissan trucks? Also, how does it fail? In what way? Do the bearings separate? Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yup, I have. Last guy that I gave some parts to locally was actually complaining about it not lastign when we were B.S.ing (and steerign/suspension was one of the topics because that was his initial reason to visit me. He needed a UCA) and look at it's design, fails just like a tie rod does at it's point of movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It's not a tie rod. From what I read, it's a heavy duty tapered bearing that only moves in two directions. That thing does not move up and down at all. If anything I will go with a braced idler arm because that's the other best option. Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunya Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 and affordable, you can get a brandy new AC one for 30 bucks (plus shipping) https://www.4x4parts.com/nissan/idler-arm-brace-p-58.html 10 bucks cheaper than Crapmini without the fitment issues (just ask Precise1, I think he still has it linked in his sig actually). Hell you can get a standard design Idler arm for under 30 bucks on rock auto, get the AC brace for 30, be at the same price as the 'problem solver' have brand new stuff AND a brace you can REuse when you do need to replace the arm again in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Bottom line is the IFS (inferior front suspension) in these trucks isn't meant to be run at the angles resulting from t bar cranks or anything like that...I was told as a kid 16 (now 28) that lifting IFS was going to wear the front end out...well it too me 11 years to wheel it hard enough to destroy the front end...I now know what i do to break stuff and adapt to not break as much stuff but its inadvertently going to happen on the trail...on highway use things will wear prematurely but not as fast as wheeling it... That being said IABs, beefier Tree's, idler arms, Pittman arms, CLs,Bjs etc are all band aides....if u want to keep IFS I think a coil over system is far superior but I don't know of one that's currently available for the Wd21s ...that being said band aide up...carry tools and trail spares...if u don't believe me check my nickname on ronnin and anyone that was at goneX will tell u what I broke the most... only did 2 out of 5 trails...went thru 5 or 6 TREs, 4 Bjs, 2 Cls, 2 idler arms and couldn't replace my Pittman arm BC no spares were available...I also thrashed my LCA bushings but managed to keep my rewelded connecting rod bushings alive...I should have done all trails looked in 2wd and I woulda been fine...anywhere... ? Enough bitching and moaning...if its that big of deal and you hate everything out there model them all...run fea's and see which one is really best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 There is still a difference between a design that works better and a design that works worse. If you are going to go on hard core trail rides, expect to break just about anything. To nunya: Thanks for the link, I put it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 IMO the Moog brace is better than mine BC of the weldment bathtub fitting...your not going to bend the bolt or the shaft under normal driving conditions and medium/hard Wheeling...I wheel hard but not hardcore BC I know the limits of my truck and still manage to break it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5523Pathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 After my drive home, I got to thinking. I should have stated that what you are posting is going to be read by other members. If you think something is inferior, you should have evidence as to back up your claim. Otherwise, you are not giving other people correct information and that is misleading. IAB's are a tried and proven way to help beef up your suspension. As is a GR centerlink. How about this, put your 2dw setup on and do some serious offroading. Document how things are holding up and share your experience. Until then, please think about what you post and how it may affect others. Oh, and UNCC is one of the hardest wheelers around here running his setup. Get to his level and then I will try and listen to what you have to say. And to throw in some info about me, I have just under 20 years of working on Nissans. I wont tell you I know everything, but I have worked on enough to know that some of the things you say dont hold water, as they say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precise1 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I have no lift, stock suspension, and my idler arm is toast (bent). The design flaw in the idler arm is that it is only supported from one side. It's like a bolt half screwed in that's being pulled on the head all the time. I don't even see how putting more stress on the arm with the Grassroots link can possibly solve the problem. I call BS on that. There is a limit on how hard you can push the stock components. They aren't designed to win races or crawl rocks with huge tires, they are designed for reliable functioning under relatively normal use/abuse and to wear, not break. Seriously, there is benefit in some give in the system, where things can flex and you have wear items. Ever consider why the bushings are plastic? If you address the center link issue (the hardbody mod seems viable) and brace the idler arm, the system should last a while. If you are tearing things or bending them, then you are pushing it too hard with either/or too large tires/too much skinny pedal. There is a reason for SAS, but only for the hardcore. How long have you had your pathy, how do you know your idler arm is bent, when did it happen, and why? B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) There is a limit on how hard you can push the stock components. They aren't designed to win races or crawl rocks with huge tires, they are designed for reliable functioning under relatively normal use/abuse and to wear, not break. Seriously, there is benefit in some give in the system, where things can flex and you have wear items. Ever consider why the bushings are plastic? If you address the center link issue (the hardbody mod seems viable) and brace the idler arm, the system should last a while. If you are tearing things or bending them, then you are pushing it too hard with either/or too large tires/too much skinny pedal. There is a reason for SAS, but only for the hardcore. How long have you had your pathy, how do you know your idler arm is bent, when did it happen, and why? B I had it for a long while, maybe 5 years now. One time my truck failed inspection because the TREs were smashed. The roads here are a disaster in some areas. On some roads, I go about 50 miles per hour hitting pot holes the size of craters. Our roads kill suspensions and our climate just rusts vehicles entirely. The Pathfinder is one of the only few vehicles that can keep up with the roads I put it on without any major issues. As much as I try to avoid the broken roads, sometimes I have no choice and have to use them to get where I need to go. After my drive home, I got to thinking. I should have stated that what you are posting is going to be read by other members. If you think something is inferior, you should have evidence as to back up your claim. Otherwise, you are not giving other people correct information and that is misleading. IAB's are a tried and proven way to help beef up your suspension. As is a GR centerlink. How about this, put your 2dw setup on and do some serious offroading. Document how things are holding up and share your experience. Until then, please think about what you post and how it may affect others. Oh, and UNCC is one of the hardest wheelers around here running his setup. Get to his level and then I will try and listen to what you have to say. And to throw in some info about me, I have just under 20 years of working on Nissans. I wont tell you I know everything, but I have worked on enough to know that some of the things you say dont hold water, as they say. My problem with the Grassroots 4x4 link is this: The bushing things are not welded in, they are welded on. Hoohaa cuts out the ball joint part to weld in another piece, which compromises the uniform strength of the center link. There is a good reason as to why auto makers never sell cars with welded center links. My system is going to be about twice as durable as the Grassroots 4x4 hack. The steering wheel will also feel much lighter to turn because the 2wd link uses longer tie rod ends mounted at a different angle. Edited February 17, 2012 by Tungsten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Skinny pedal breaks lots of stuff no matter how built it is...I was accused of skinny pedal in moab but the issue was cracked headers (Eisenhower pass on the way to moab) so no torque...and busted Lca bushings allowing the suspension to do stupid things like when the front tires had power they towed in bad with traction on the slick rock it allowed them to not slip grab and tow in even more...causing bends and breaks...I proved my theory here in the south east but wasn't near as severe since most terrain around here allows for slip on the ground not bending parts If its a repeated bend in a short time span start looking for other causes...a tale tale of worn cls is scars on the frame from the TRE studs rubbing the frame...with a new Cl I didn't have clash but were still very close...upon further inspection I found the idler arm bent...replaced it and the passenger side was better but the drivers was still hitting at times...yep bent Pittman...which is the band aid I posted above but that won't fix it till I fix the lca bushings but it will get wheeled hard between now and then BC gulches is between me and my truck...ill just have spares and limit my abuse...after the first break... How many folks broke at KOH this weekend? And its desigrnd for abuse... And leave it with this: input offroading or driving in place of rock crawling " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 That's why I don't drive a Jeep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unccpathfinder Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 My problem with the Grassroots 4x4 link is this: The bushing things are not welded in, they are welded on. Hoohaa cuts out the ball joint part to weld in another piece, which compromises the uniform strength of the center link. There is a good reason as to why auto makers never sell cars with welded center links.[/ quote] Bushings are serviceable parts...reducing cost to replace the entire component...what's the issue with welding...yea you heat treat it some but the loads aren't in critical locations and the yield,tensile,ultimate strengths aren't compromised to reduced the factor of safety below 1 IMO so.I don't understand the concern from an engineering standpoint...personal preference is personal preference tho...I for 1 wouldn't allow anyone to drive my truck daily BC I would fear for.their life but me on the other hand understand what I have and how effed it is and can get from a to b in mostly 1 piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaMountianbiker Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 And leave it with this: input offroading or driving in place of rock crawling " ^ Love Love Love this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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