porsche4786 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) So I replaced my lifters yesterday, and within the 30-45 minutes I ran it afterword, it sounded fine. Then I changed the oil with fresh castrol gtx high mileage 10w-40, and new filter. I drove it after that for about 20 minutes, and now it makes a bunch of noise again. I'm guessing that my oil passages are clogged. I did make sure all the passages I could see were clear (sprayed engine degreaser thru them), but they could be clogged within the head or oil pump. Other ideas? I did soak the lifters in 5w-20 for about 24 hours (upright) before installation. And lubbed up everything well as installing. (Probably why it sounded fine for the first 30-45 minutes). This engine did have a large amount of sludge in the valve covers (used putty knife to remove it) when I first replaced the valve cover gaskets the day after I bought it, about a year ago now. It was obviously abused and the guy flat out lied to me about it. "Oil changed every 3000 miles", yeah, bull... edit: When the engine startes cold, there is no ticking. Once it warms, it ticks. Edited March 13, 2011 by porsche4786 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 2 Things People always miss. 1)The first 20 min your startup is critical. The Cams / Lifters must be "Run In" This maintains a good Oil supply while the lifters establish a good wear pattern Start the engine and raise RPMs Immediadely to 2,000 RPM to ensure adequate oil supply to cams and valve train. Listen for any strange noises. You may hear a tappet noise for a few seconds but this should disappear once the oil pressure is up. If you feel something is not right switch off engine, investigate and fix it. Once fixed restart engine and raise revs to 2000 RPM immediately again. After 5 mins raise engine RPM to 3000 rpm. After 10 mins slowly fluctuate RPM between 2000 and 3000 RPM After 20 mins allow engine to idle and then switch off. Cams/ Lifters are now run in. 2) A wear additive containing ZDDP should be used during Run In and for the first few hundred miles after. ZDDP used to be in all oils but starting in 2003 Oil Companies began removing it. Also running a ZDDP oil is good for you engine too. Royal Purple and Brad Penn are 2 brands that still contain ZDDP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 You could pull the passenger valve cover and see if there is any play in any of the rocker arms. Push down on the lifter side, they should be very hard. Did you try pushing down on the lifters before you installed. If they are soft it should be fairly obvious, the top will just easily collapse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1987caddy Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) 10w-40 is way too thick on fresh lifters. It ran fine at first cause the lifters had oil in them from soaking. After that, very little oil is getting to the top end. 10w is cold weight, 40 is the weight when warm. Clearances are too narrow for good oil flow. Edited March 14, 2011 by 1987caddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) You could pull the passenger valve cover and see if there is any play in any of the rocker arms. Push down on the lifter side, they should be very hard. Did you try pushing down on the lifters before you installed. If they are soft it should be fairly obvious, the top will just easily collapse... As I installed the rocker arms and rockers, I pushed on them after I tightened it down, and didn't notice any lifters collapse. 10w-40 is way too thick on fresh lifters. It ran fine at first cause the lifters had oil in them from soaking. After that, very little oil is getting to the top end. 10w is cold weight, 40 is the weight when warm. Clearances are too narrow for good oil flow. That's what I was thinking, thinner oil when it's cold so it lubes ok, after that it's too thick. I figured I have some clogged/partially clogged oil passages (but I did clean out the oil passages on the rocker arm rods, and lifter plate thing, some of those were plugged). I bought some Valvoline max life 5w-30 last night. The only ZDDP additive I have been able to find locally (and have used in the past) is the blue bottle of STP. I wonder if I should run a little seafoam or other cleaner thru the oil system that might open up some oil passages. I have never used seafoam in the past. Just after I bought the rig about a year ago, I had oil can henry's replace the oil (I just didn't have time to do it, first time taking a car anywhere to have oil changed) and they also ran a cleaner thru the oil system, and after they did that is when I started noticing lifter tick. So I'm not sure if the guy I bought it from had put something in the oil to make it sound ok before he sold it to me, or if the cleaner had some effect on the lifters, or if the cleaner just knocked a bunch of junk loose and caused trouble. Edited March 14, 2011 by porsche4786 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 10w40 is much thicker when cold then when hot. It has the viscosity of COLD 10 weight oil when cold and the viscosity of HOT 40 weight oil when hot. The viscosity of cold 10 weight oil is greater than the viscosity of hot 40 weight oil. It's just at the same temperature that lower weights have lower viscosities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 I changed the oil to valvoline max life 5w-30, still ticks like crazy. Even when cold. I was looking thru the oil filler hole and everything looks very clean, I'm not sure how much oil should be coating everything after it has sat for 10 mins, maybe I'll try and run it and look in there, I can see one lifter, thru the hole, and I suspect it's the one making most of the noise on that side. I could try and get some oil in there directly on it and see if it helps at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdy99 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Did you replace the lifters with brand new ones or used? Also did you inspect your rockers for any sort of damage? Your looking for heavy pitting and excessive wear spots. A worn cam and rockers make the same noise. I would pull off the covers again and check for any sort of play on the rockers. Make sure you rotate the engine as your checking them with the valves in the closed postion. If all checks out good, then run a bottle of seafoam for about 10-40 miles of driving and change the oil again. Once you change the oil, hook up an oil pressure gauge and check the readings. Your oil pressure will always be higher when the engine is cold, so go by the numbers with your engine fully warm. The reason you want to run the seafoam before you check the oil pressure is because you dont want any crude in the passages giving you a false reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 Did you replace the lifters with brand new ones or used? Also did you inspect your rockers for any sort of damage? Your looking for heavy pitting and excessive wear spots. A worn cam and rockers make the same noise. I would pull off the covers again and check for any sort of play on the rockers. Make sure you rotate the engine as your checking them with the valves in the closed postion. If all checks out good, then run a bottle of seafoam for about 10-40 miles of driving and change the oil again. Once you change the oil, hook up an oil pressure gauge and check the readings. Your oil pressure will always be higher when the engine is cold, so go by the numbers with your engine fully warm. The reason you want to run the seafoam before you check the oil pressure is because you dont want any crude in the passages giving you a false reading. They are brand new. I'm not a fan of using used internal engine parts. The rockers themselves looked to be fine, and the rocker arm shaft looked fine (didn't use a micrometer, should have). Almost looked like one side was slightly newer than the other. The cam did have a slight worn spot on the drivers side, which is the lifter on that side that was making the most noise before replacement. But now I'm having a hard time figuring which of the lifters (or whatever it is) is making the most noise. Maybe I need to replace the cams too...Always fun doing things twice ...Just had the timing belt off about 2 months ago...Too bad I didn't just do it all at once! The other thing I'm still not sure of is if it's getting enough oil to the rocker arms and lifters. Obviously that makes a huge difference. (I'm thinking as I'm typing here) It did sound very quiet when I first finished and started it up. Which means when it DID have oil, it was fine. So now I'm thinking it's not getting enough oil.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 So, did you do what MY1PATH said or not? You entirely ignored what he said, and it's the most critical post in the thread so far. The run-in procedure has to be followed. If not you might as well replace them again because they'll never be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 15, 2011 Author Share Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) So, did you do what MY1PATH said or not? You entirely ignored what he said, and it's the most critical post in the thread so far. The run-in procedure has to be followed. If not you might as well replace them again because they'll never be right. No, I did not. Since it was driven for maybe 15 miles or more after installing the lifters and posting here (no mention of run-in in the FSM or Haynes manual). I figured it is way beyond too late to do that. Plus, it just sounds soo horrid at a plain idle. I didn't want to run it more than absolutely necessary. It sounds like it's running with no oil in it whatsoever. edit: after I was finished, started it, it ran at about 1500 rpm and I reved it up to 2000 for a couple minutes. till "warm" then idled down to 750rpm. I went inside for a minute. Came back out and it was at about 2000 rpm (something wrong with throttle cable). So I messed with that for a while trying to get it to idle normally, and get the timing on right. After that, I drove it. Edited March 15, 2011 by porsche4786 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 One time I forgot to tighten down one of the rocker arm shafts (I had just snugged it up). Got pretty noisy... Anyway, I'm not there to hear it, but it might give you a better idea if you take both rocker covers off and take a good look and feel of everything. Sticking valves might also cause ticking. I believe it's only the intake valves that are "interference". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Idle is the worst thing for new lifters; 6-9PSI On first start up They need to esablilsh thier wear pattern with GOOD oil supply. This is both for the camlobes and the lifter internals. ZDDP also helps because it stops any chances of esessive wear when establing that wear pattern properly. When I did my cams my new lifters rattled like a mason jar full of bolts bringing the RPM up. Then they ticked for less than 45 seconds during the run-in. After that I NEVER heard them again. Edited March 16, 2011 by MY1PATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Idle is the worst thing for new lifters; 6-9PSI On first start up They need to esablilsh thier wear pattern with GOOD oil supply. This is both for the camlobes and the lifter internals. ZDDP also helps because it stops any chances of esessive wear when establing that wear pattern properly. When I did my cams my new lifters rattled like a mason jar full of bolts bringing the RPM up. Then they ticked for less than 45 seconds during the run-in. After that I NEVER heard them again. You think I need to replace them again, then do wear in? Wish I would have seen that before I changed them. Pretty expensive things to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY1PATH Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) YES, sorry to say it but replace them again. Like I said its something people aways miss so don't feel alone. And take some carb cleaner and blast out all the holes in your lifter galley too. Edited March 16, 2011 by MY1PATH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 While doing the run in is a good idea, and maybe your lifters are pooched, I'm not convinced it's that for sure... and you should still be able to find the source of the noise and decide if you need to replace them... I mean, are the lifters worn (mic them), are they loose in the galleys? Galleys worn? Cams? you can measure all this stuff, or even feel to see if anything is loose. Might require disassembly of course. Lifter height? I dunno, I'd just hate for you to buy another set of lifters and have the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) While doing the run in is a good idea, and maybe your lifters are pooched, I'm not convinced it's that for sure... and you should still be able to find the source of the noise and decide if you need to replace them... I mean, are the lifters worn (mic them), are they loose in the galleys? Galleys worn? Cams? you can measure all this stuff, or even feel to see if anything is loose. Might require disassembly of course. Lifter height? I dunno, I'd just hate for you to buy another set of lifters and have the same problem. Are the rocker arms supposed to ever be "free" and move freely at a certain spot during a revolution? Or is there always supposed to be a certain amount of pressure against them? Thru the oil filler hole, I can move one of the rocker arms with my finger. This pathfinder has been a real test for me. Since it has need SO much work. I'm really considering buying a frontier (since xterra's are soo hard to find with a manual transmission around here). Getting the nissan to run proper, and sell it before something else breaks. I'm probably into it as much as I paid for it now. Only put about 11k miles on it. 158k on it now. edit: I say that about the xterra...then I see this... lol http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/cto/2267729258.html Edited March 16, 2011 by porsche4786 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewebster Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) The rockers should basically always be tight. That is likely the source of your ticking sound. Now, the lifters do change height somewhat with oil pressure, to take up the "slack" but my experience is that new, properly functioning lifters won't be collapsing in any short period of time. I would find out if they are all like that or just one or a couple. If it isn't all of them then you should be able to figure out what the difference is. Worn rockers? rocker shaft? cam? lifter? valve? It's only like 10 minutes or less to pull the passenger side valve cover I'll add this, in case you're having the same problem I did: I recently replaced my lifters. Put the new set in and ended up with terrible ticking. Took it apart and two of the lifters had seized in the lifter guide plate, destroying them and the cam lobes. Turns out the were too large (diameter, only slightly). In the end I have purchased 36 lifters from a variety of manufacturers. 14 of those were oversize. I highly recommend measuring any lifter with a micrometer before installation. Anything that doesn't fall within the tight tolerances in the FSM should not be used. Edited March 16, 2011 by sewebster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 It's only like 10 minutes or less to pull the passenger side valve cover Yeah...I know. I'm just lazy and tired of the bs with this thing. I'll probably do it tonight after work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 Okay...I haven't had much time lately. I've been running around everywhere trying to find metric adapters for the oil pressure gauge I have. Nobody seems to have anything, I finally got the right one! I put the gauge on and when I start it up (cold engine) the psi jumps up to just over 60psi for about 5-10ish seconds, then drops down to about 30. I have not removed the valve covers yet. I wanted to check oil pressure first. Does 30 PSI seem low at cold idle? My rx-7's oil metering pump decided to go out a couple days ago so I've been franticly trying to locate one locally and find out if there were any other problems with that. I'm scared to drive any working vehicle now because it might break! New the oil metering pump is over $1500! Found a used one for $125 and it's working fine now. (thank god!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 It seems a little low to me. At idle my Pathfinder with 250K ran 60+ PSI cold and so does my 300ZX. What is it at when it's warm? Anything below 7PSI you've got issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesRich Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Sounds to me like your oil filter is plugged. Try changing the filter and check it again. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porsche4786 Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 It seems a little low to me. At idle my Pathfinder with 250K ran 60+ PSI cold and so does my 300ZX. What is it at when it's warm? Anything below 7PSI you've got issues. I'll try and get thru the horrible sounds and let it warm up tonight . Also will see what it does when reved up. Yours ran 60 PSI till it got warmed up? Do you know what it runs when warmed up at idle? Sounds to me like your oil filter is plugged. Try changing the filter and check it again. James Could be, I'm also thinking the pickup tube screen. Which looks like fun to get at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 9PSI. However, oil weight is responsible for what oil pressure your engine builds at any given RPM. The thinner the oil when it's warm, the better. This allows more flow through the bearing galleys and more flow means a better lubrication/cooling effect. The spec for VGs is 5W20 in cold climates. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesRich Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I'll try and get thru the horrible sounds and let it warm up tonight . Also will see what it does when reved up. Yours ran 60 PSI till it got warmed up? Do you know what it runs when warmed up at idle? Could be, I'm also thinking the pickup tube screen. Which looks like fun to get at. You might try changing your filter before running it anymore. They are cheap and it cant hurt. I had a cheap walmart brand filter do this to me on a ford. I was a poor teenager and put a engine together from used parts. It ran great but the oil pressure (manual gauge mounted inside the car) would shoot up when I would start it and then slowly drop off to nothing. To get it back home from the first test drive I had to keep shutting it off and restarting it then run till the pressure dropped again. Eventually the lifters started ticking too. I went through all the trouble of pulling the motor half way out to change the oil pump and got the same problem with the new pump. Just on a wild thought I changed the oil and filter and the pressure problem was gone. Talk about wanting to kick my own ass for buying a cheap filter and not trying changing it first. I could have saved the $50 I spent on a high volume pump. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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