spiceyfish Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) I have a 1997 Pathy (130,000 miles) which has (over the last ~5,000 miles) developed the, apparently, infamous and all-too common death wobble. After reading through the forums here and quite a few other articles, it became seemingly obvious what the issue is: I'm probably driving around on worn out control arm bushings. I went to the local mechanic today and told him what I think the issue is. He said the bushings were likely the issue but I would need an alignment after the work was done (which I guess he was unable to do) and that I might as well go to this tire place down the street that also does this kind of work. I'm thinking, OK I guess that makes sense, and head down the street. There, I am told that the shaking doesn't have anything to do with the control arms but that I might need to replace the rear shocks and buy a shiny new $600 set of tires because my currents tires have been "cupped" or "cut" (I couldn't understand a &^%*ing word he was saying). Now, I'm thinking: Gee, big surprise. The sketchy dude working at this tire place is recommending that I buy tires... I would have checked out another place but it was about 5:30 and everybody else was closed. It seems like I just need to stick to my guns and get the control arms worked on by somebody. However, considering that the only work I've done, myself, on this car has been the oil changes and replacing the alternator (last week): I'm also thinking that it would't hurt to solicit a few opinions from you cyber-savvy, pathy enthused, gear heads. What's going on here?! I mean; I imagine that new rubber would probably help, but I somehow doubt that it's going to solve the problem. Edited March 5, 2009 by spiceyfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixGuns Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 New tires will always solve your issue. For about 100 miles. If your tires are cupped, they don't do it on their own. The guy's blowing smoke up your ass. My guess would be bushings and perhaps tie rods. Yes, get an your sh*t aligned after the work is performed, but don't let someone talk you into new tires like it's gonna fix the world...it won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Who is this guy? I'd love to give him a call and rattle his cage a little. What a jackass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 If the tires aren't wearing correctly then yeah they could contribute to the problem, but there would be a reason that the tires aren't wearing evenly and just replacing them would only fix a symptom and not the problem. From everything I've read and been told, it's the bushings on the control arms. I have to get mine replaced soon (I don't have any sort of death wobble though, I just checked them when I put my snows on and they've got too much play) so I talked to my brother about it who was a service rep for a local Nissan dealer for a couple years. He said that they generally recommended people just replace the entire control arm (on the front) as they come with bushings pre-pressed in, and pressing new bushings into the old control arms was almost as costly and time consuming as just buying new arms. Then again it's also dealer policy to replace the entire cv axle when just the boot wears out, so maybe someone here can offer better light on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vengeful Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Firstly, it's the REAR control arm bushings that cause the "death-wobble," so an alignment isn't necessary. You should probably go ahead and change ALL the bushings now though, or you'll be back in there doing more later. Without fixing the underlying problem that is causing your tires to wear unevenly, putting new tires on is a waste of money, because those tires will wear unevenly, too. Fix the problem, get a GOOD alignment (I've always had very good luck with Sears, oddly enough), and your tire wear should even itself out eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezzy Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I'd definitely go somewhere else for a 2nd opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laxman0324 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Firstly, it's the REAR control arm bushings that cause the "death-wobble," so an alignment isn't necessary. You should probably go ahead and change ALL the bushings now though, or you'll be back in there doing more later. Without fixing the underlying problem that is causing your tires to wear unevenly, putting new tires on is a waste of money, because those tires will wear unevenly, too. Fix the problem, get a GOOD alignment (I've always had very good luck with Sears, oddly enough), and your tire wear should even itself out eventually. x2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfftourRoadie96 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 x2 Here's a couple of links I thought were pretty cool....especialy for me since I'm a Newbie..... Service Bulletin This one's pretty detailed, and thought was great.... How To Fix the Death Wobble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thanks for the feedback everybody! I pretty much figured the guy was trying to scam me and as soon as I've got some cash i'm going to get on it. Whats the damage going to be on new control arms? I am flat broke because i just had to replace the alternator and pay the new registration, so i'm going to have to save up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Firstly, it's the REAR control arm bushings that cause the "death-wobble," so an alignment isn't necessary. You should probably go ahead and change ALL the bushings now though, or you'll be back in there doing more later. Without fixing the underlying problem that is causing your tires to wear unevenly, putting new tires on is a waste of money, because those tires will wear unevenly, too. Fix the problem, get a GOOD alignment (I've always had very good luck with Sears, oddly enough), and your tire wear should even itself out eventually. Thats what I had read (everywhere). I shared my findings/suspicions about the rear control arms with the mechanic and then the tire guy, and they both had the same reaction: "you know there aren't any control arms in the rear, right?" I guess taking it to the dealer (or sears?) is going to be my best option. I don't have the tools or the knowledge to do this kind of work myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Who is this guy? I'd love to give him a call and rattle his cage a little. What a jackass! Haha, I don't know. The mechanic I went to has a pretty good reputation around here, so I assumed anybody he referred me to would be legit. I'm sure as hell not going back to either of them, for anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 (edited) "you know there aren't any control arms in the rear, right?" I guess taking it to the dealer (or sears?) is going to be my best option. I don't have the tools or the knowledge to do this kind of work myself. Perhaps they refer to the rear suspension links as "drag links" instead of control arms. Don't take it to the dealer unless you have a really good relationship with them and their prices are better than independent shops. As for tools and knowledge, well, the knowledge is available on this website, so you're set there, and the tools? Hmm, how much do you expect to pay a shop to do the work? OK, now take that dollar amount and instead, buy tools. Now you have the tools to do it yourself! And the bonus is that you get to KEEP the tools to use later! BTW, do you live in the rust belt? If so, then it might be better for you to have a shop do it. Just my $.02 Edited March 6, 2009 by XPLORx4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 I'd definitely go somewhere else for a 2nd opinion. Yeah, the mechanic i went to comes really highly recommended though. So i'm thinking the next stop is going to be the dealer. ugh, EXPENSIVE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Maybe he's highly recommended because no one knows better than to defy him? That's the case with the shop I took mine to to get something fixed. Firestone does this as well, depending on the store and area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 Perhaps they refer to the rear suspension links as "drag links" instead of control arms. Don't take it to the dealer unless you have a really good relationship with them and their prices are better than independent shops. As for tools and knowledge, well, the knowledge is available on this website, so you're set there, and the tools? Hmm, how much do you expect to pay a shop to do the work? OK, now take that dollar amount and instead, buy tools. Now you have the tools to do it yourself! And the bonus is that you get to KEEP the tools to use later! BTW, do you live in the rust belt? If so, then it might be better for you to have a shop do it. Just my $.02 rust belt? i've never heard that term, so probably not. I live about 10 miles inland, so i'm pretty safe from the salty sea air (if thats what you're referring to). It sounds like the most expensive tool i'm going to need is an impact wrench so I suppose it would be cheaper to do it myself unless I need to buy replacement control arms (in which case it will end up costing about the same amount, it seems?). Everybody seems to have different ideas about whether its better to replace the entire control arm or just the bushings. Whats your take on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 rust belt? i've never heard that term, so probably not. I live about 10 miles inland, so i'm pretty safe from the salty sea air (if thats what you're referring to). It sounds like the most expensive tool i'm going to need is an impact wrench so I suppose it would be cheaper to do it myself unless I need to buy replacement control arms (in which case it will end up costing about the same amount, it seems?). Everybody seems to have different ideas about whether its better to replace the entire control arm or just the bushings. Whats your take on it? Oops, I didn't pay attention to the fact that you live in San Diego, so rust will not likely be an issue for you. ("Rust belt" refers to the northeast. Vehicles operated in states where the roads are salted in winter tend to have severe rust issues, which really complicates DIY repairs.) How many miles are on your pathy? How many more do you intend to drive it? FYI, the wobbling problem will be solved by replacing ONLY the lower links/bushings, which is useful information, especially if you're on a tight budget. The function of the upper links is mainly to maintain the proper pinion angle under acceleration or braking. FWIW, I replaced my lower link bushings with poly bushings about 5 years ago to solve the wobbling problem also, and I never touched the upper link bushings. One of these days I guess I'll get around to it. It's not difficult to simply swap old links for new ones, since the new links come with bushings. In your case, the extra difficulty of pressing poly bushings into the links may not be worth the effort if you don't have the tools and automotive experience. However, if you intend to keep your Pathy for many more miles and don't want to worry about this again, go with poly bushings. You don't absolutely need air tools to do the job, but they definitely make working on your rig easier. If you can't afford a compressor and air tools, go pick up a breaker bar or a pipe to give you extra leverage on your socket ratchet or box wrenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 (edited) Oops, I didn't pay to the fact that you live in San Diego, so rust will not likely be an issue for you. ("Rust belt" refers to the northeast. Vehicles operated in states where the roads are salted in winter tend to have severe rust issues, which really complicates DIY repairs.) How many miles are on your pathy? How many more do you intend to drive it? FYI, the wobbling problem will be solved by replacing ONLY the lower links/bushings, which is useful information, especially if you're on a tight budget. The function of the upper links is mainly to maintain the proper pinion angle under acceleration or braking. FWIW, I replaced my lower link bushings with poly bushings about 5 years ago to solve the wobbling problem also, and I never touched the upper link bushings. One of these days I guess I'll get around to it. It's not difficult to simply swap old links for new ones, since the new links come with bushings. In your case, the extra difficulty of pressing poly bushings into the links may not be worth the effort if you don't have the tools and automotive experience. However, if you intend to keep your Pathy for many more miles and don't want to worry about this again, go with poly bushings. You don't absolutely need air tools to do the job, but they definitely make working on your rig easier. If you can't afford a compressor and air tools, go pick up a breaker bar or a pipe to give you extra leverage on your socket ratchet or box wrenches. Awesome! dude, thanks so much. you've been extremely helpful! one last question: I can only find a how-to section on replacing all four control arms, upper and lower. am i just not looking hard enough? or can I use this tutorial and just leave out a couple steps? if so, which ones? EDIT: i dont know why that link isn't working - http://www.wallpaperama.com/forums/nissan-...inks-t6856.html Edited March 7, 2009 by spiceyfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) Awesome! dude, thanks so much. you've been extremely helpful! one last question: I can only find a how-to section on replacing all four control arms, upper and lower. am i just not looking hard enough? or can I use this tutorial and just leave out a couple steps? if so, which ones?EDIT: i dont know why that link isn't working - http://www.wallpaperama.com/forums/nissan-...inks-t6856.html If you intend only to replace the lower links, just follow the instructions on wallpaperama, but leave out any steps which involve removing the upper links. The lower links are pretty easy, involving only removal of the ABS/parking brake cable brackets from the links, and then removing the links themselves. Also, remove and replace one link at a time. Do not remove both links simultaneously. It's possible that the axle may slightly move out of alignment when you remove the links, so you may need to use a ratchet strap to realign the axle with the bolts during reinstallation. Edited March 8, 2009 by XPLORx4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiceyfish Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 If you intend only to replace the lower links, just follow the instructions on wallpaperama, but leave out any steps which involve removing the upper links. The lower links are pretty easy, involving only removal of the ABS/parking brake cable brackets from the links, and then removing the links themselves. Also, remove and replace one link at a time. Do not remove both links simultaneously. It's possible that the axle may slightly move out of alignment when you remove the links, so you may need to use a ratchet strap to realign the axle with the bolts during reinstallation. seems like every time you give me a perfectly good explanation of how to do this, i find more questions to ask. how do i realign the axle with a ratchet strap? i assume i'm going to bind the axle to something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XPLORx4 Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 seems like every time you give me a perfectly good explanation of how to do this, i find more questions to ask. how do i realign the axle with a ratchet strap? i assume i'm going to bind the axle to something? If the axle moves out of position and the bolthole doesn't line up, just find a part of the undercarriage in front or behind the axle to attach the hook of the ratchet strap to (depending on which way you need to move the axle), and hook the other end around the axle. When I did this on may Pathy, I used a hand-winch [aka come-along] because I didn't own a ratchet strap. However, the principle is the same, and ratchet straps are far less expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FUELER Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 hey if you need a guy in SD you cal call Les at Snappy Auto, he knows exactly what the job is because he installed the 4x4parts.com bushings on my 99... i provided the parts, paid les to put them in, and the total job still came out less than the price of OEM nissan arms... and the polyurethane ones will likely never have to be replaced again..... if you want i can ask him how much, just let me know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod_b Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Anyone know the length of the bolts. It's almost $40 for a set from AC when I could get some elsewhere for about $15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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